Remembering Tigers and Padawans...

Personally, I would prefer to be respected for the quality of my posts, not for my position as an administrator. I was invited to become an administrator because I was a respected member, NOT the other way around. But, if you guys insist on respecting me, I guess I'll accept it, whatever the reason is!

 

I respect you for being so darn cute

 

I respect you for being so darn cute

 

I respect you for knowing about koalas

 

I respect you for knowing about koalas

 

I am breaking my current moratorium on posting at the JC (for personal, RL reasons) to make a few comments here. I think that this is a very important discussion, as the relationship between the administrators and the members is at the root of the problems that the JC has been having of late.

First off, I think that the administrators need to accept the fact that they are authority figures. I have never been and administrator, but I have had, and currently have, several leadership positions in real life. I know first hand that being in such a position can be a double-edged sword. You gain respect, but also acquire more enemies. You have more power, but also more responsibilities. One of the biggest drawbacks is that you have to distance yourself a bit from those you are administrating. Being best buds with the ?employees? just doesn?t work. I acknowledge that this situation is somewhat different as the administrators aren?t so much mangers as playground monitors, but the effect is still the same. Once you become good friends with someone, issues of favoritism arise, as well as other problems. I guess what I am ultimately trying to say is that by becoming an administrator, you sacrificed your member status. People will see you differently and treat you differently. You can?t have your cake and eat it too, unfortunately.

Secondly, the administrators need to show more respect for the opinions of the members. This does not mean you have to do everything we say. As an example, after the decision was made to close the religion threads, many people objected. These weren?t new guys complaining about a closed redundant thread, but veteran members who had contributed many thoughtful discussions and were intelligently expressing their concerns. However, the administrators, whether they intended to or not, told them that their opinions meant nothing. The conversations were then declared over and the threads protesting were locked. They were even threatened (with the deletion of all religious threads) if they didn?t stop talking about it. If the administrators were to allow these types of discussions, and participate in them, I believe it would do wonders for the state of the forum. And by participating I do not mean saying ?That?s the way it is so shut up.? I mean listening to and thoughtfully debating the opposing opinions. By showing in this way that the administrators care about and respect the members? opinions, I thoroughly believe that respect for the administrators would skyrocket. Would there still be whiners and trolls? Of course, there will always be. That?s just something you have to deal with.

I sincerely hope these things help. I have spoken to most of the administrators personally, and they are all cool people. I also think that they all do a great job (most of the time ). But there is always room for improvement.

 

I am breaking my current moratorium on posting at the JC (for personal, RL reasons) to make a few comments here. I think that this is a very important discussion, as the relationship between the administrators and the members is at the root of the problems that the JC has been having of late.

First off, I think that the administrators need to accept the fact that they are authority figures. I have never been and administrator, but I have had, and currently have, several leadership positions in real life. I know first hand that being in such a position can be a double-edged sword. You gain respect, but also acquire more enemies. You have more power, but also more responsibilities. One of the biggest drawbacks is that you have to distance yourself a bit from those you are administrating. Being best buds with the ?employees? just doesn?t work. I acknowledge that this situation is somewhat different as the administrators aren?t so much mangers as playground monitors, but the effect is still the same. Once you become good friends with someone, issues of favoritism arise, as well as other problems. I guess what I am ultimately trying to say is that by becoming an administrator, you sacrificed your member status. People will see you differently and treat you differently. You can?t have your cake and eat it too, unfortunately.

Secondly, the administrators need to show more respect for the opinions of the members. This does not mean you have to do everything we say. As an example, after the decision was made to close the religion threads, many people objected. These weren?t new guys complaining about a closed redundant thread, but veteran members who had contributed many thoughtful discussions and were intelligently expressing their concerns. However, the administrators, whether they intended to or not, told them that their opinions meant nothing. The conversations were then declared over and the threads protesting were locked. They were even threatened (with the deletion of all religious threads) if they didn?t stop talking about it. If the administrators were to allow these types of discussions, and participate in them, I believe it would do wonders for the state of the forum. And by participating I do not mean saying ?That?s the way it is so shut up.? I mean listening to and thoughtfully debating the opposing opinions. By showing in this way that the administrators care about and respect the members? opinions, I thoroughly believe that respect for the administrators would skyrocket. Would there still be whiners and trolls? Of course, there will always be. That?s just something you have to deal with.

I sincerely hope these things help. I have spoken to most of the administrators personally, and they are all cool people. I also think that they all do a great job (most of the time ). But there is always room for improvement.

 

Dear Sir or Madam,

Perhaps it might be worthwhile to divide interested members into a dozen or so sections, one group for each active administrator.

But then I would be deprived of the lovely and stimulating contact with the other eleven administrators. I would no longer be able to bask in all of your reflected glory! And I would only be able to suck up to one of you at a time!

Then again, I'd save a fortune in bribes.

 

Dear Sir or Madam,

Perhaps it might be worthwhile to divide interested members into a dozen or so sections, one group for each active administrator.

But then I would be deprived of the lovely and stimulating contact with the other eleven administrators. I would no longer be able to bask in all of your reflected glory! And I would only be able to suck up to one of you at a time!

Then again, I'd save a fortune in bribes.

 

Paradox good job as always, and I think the idea has merit.

All that I can offer to this conversation is my own personal experience which has been that I have met a lot more of the JCN posters since becoming an Admin., not the other way around. However, I have seen a growing rift between the Admins. and the members, and I think this is bad. As Andrysus said, it is the cause for a number of the problems on this forum of late in my opinion.

I must acknowledge some agreement to PB's statement, that I don't have much time to spend here, but that does not mean that I won't be willing to try it. It seems like a good idea. The only suggestion that I have is that we not assign members under particular Admins. unless the Admin. requests it since I would rather get to know everyone and not be limited by a contact group.

I echo all the other Admins. who say that they want to be viewed as members, with the power to keep organization and control to the forums. Though being an Admin. actually helped me, because it forced me to go out and actively meet people. I know that if nothing comes of this, I will still be doing just that. Also, I feel it important to note, that when I get to know people it won't impact my administrative decision. If the member screws up, he will be dealt with just like anyone else, regardless of whether I am friends with them. Hopefully, their friendship will not cause someone to force me into that position... I would hope.

Anyways, I am all for the Admins. making more contact with the members. It can only help things out.

I am curious what all the other members have to say about your proposition.

 

Paradox good job as always, and I think the idea has merit.

All that I can offer to this conversation is my own personal experience which has been that I have met a lot more of the JCN posters since becoming an Admin., not the other way around. However, I have seen a growing rift between the Admins. and the members, and I think this is bad. As Andrysus said, it is the cause for a number of the problems on this forum of late in my opinion.

I must acknowledge some agreement to PB's statement, that I don't have much time to spend here, but that does not mean that I won't be willing to try it. It seems like a good idea. The only suggestion that I have is that we not assign members under particular Admins. unless the Admin. requests it since I would rather get to know everyone and not be limited by a contact group.

I echo all the other Admins. who say that they want to be viewed as members, with the power to keep organization and control to the forums. Though being an Admin. actually helped me, because it forced me to go out and actively meet people. I know that if nothing comes of this, I will still be doing just that. Also, I feel it important to note, that when I get to know people it won't impact my administrative decision. If the member screws up, he will be dealt with just like anyone else, regardless of whether I am friends with them. Hopefully, their friendship will not cause someone to force me into that position... I would hope.

Anyways, I am all for the Admins. making more contact with the members. It can only help things out.

I am curious what all the other members have to say about your proposition.

 

If it makes you guys feel any better, I don't respect any of you.

I just look up to you guys the way I look up to any porn star, yeah you too Hathor.

 

If it makes you guys feel any better, I don't respect any of you.

I just look up to you guys the way I look up to any porn star, yeah you too Hathor.

 

I recently wrote to Paradox about an issue I had (my profile was corrupt and I wasn't able to post for about a week and I hadn't heard back from the official address yet). I tried to stay semi-formal out of respect for the people that donate their time to keep this place going. I also wanted to make sure I didn't come across like I was *****ing or complaining, I just wanted to find out what my options were.
I understand and agree that the admins are just a bunch of people like us that love Star Wars too, but when contacting them on official business, I feel there is nothing wrong with showing a little respect.

 

I recently wrote to Paradox about an issue I had (my profile was corrupt and I wasn't able to post for about a week and I hadn't heard back from the official address yet). I tried to stay semi-formal out of respect for the people that donate their time to keep this place going. I also wanted to make sure I didn't come across like I was *****ing or complaining, I just wanted to find out what my options were.
I understand and agree that the admins are just a bunch of people like us that love Star Wars too, but when contacting them on official business, I feel there is nothing wrong with showing a little respect.

 

I'd like to echo what Andrusys said, in perhaps slightly different words.

It is hard to see Admins as "just another member" when they can so completely eradicate a subject from the Jedi Council without repercussions.

Allegedly the elimination of religion threads was due to complaints by people who were offended by them. This seems to imply that a sufficient number of complaints will bring on policy changes. However, when those who like religion threads, and haven't had cause to complain, respond to the closure with complaints, they are summarily silenced. I wonder why the people who complained about the religion threads had more right to be heard than those who posted in them.

When trying to find the answer to this, every arguement I read in support of the ban by the Admins had an emotional base. There wasn't a comparison of the number of members who wanted them and the number who didn't. There wasn't a mention of the number of hits those thread alone have generated for the forum. There was simply a total ban, and a threat for those who spoke of it again.

Any wonder it is hard to see the Admins, in general, as "just another member?"

I like YTAP, because I know him through Fan Fic. The times I've dealt with Paradox have been pleasant as well. The rest of the Admins I don't know so well, besides from their posts as Administrators, especially on this last issue. And many of those post have been derogatory towards people supporting the discussion of religion.

So, IMO, if the Admins in general, or specific, stop saying, "We don't care what you think. Why don't you just shut up?" there may be a window of opportunity in which members would want to get to know them. Until then...

-NiceGuy

 

I'd like to echo what Andrusys said, in perhaps slightly different words.

It is hard to see Admins as "just another member" when they can so completely eradicate a subject from the Jedi Council without repercussions.

Allegedly the elimination of religion threads was due to complaints by people who were offended by them. This seems to imply that a sufficient number of complaints will bring on policy changes. However, when those who like religion threads, and haven't had cause to complain, respond to the closure with complaints, they are summarily silenced. I wonder why the people who complained about the religion threads had more right to be heard than those who posted in them.

When trying to find the answer to this, every arguement I read in support of the ban by the Admins had an emotional base. There wasn't a comparison of the number of members who wanted them and the number who didn't. There wasn't a mention of the number of hits those thread alone have generated for the forum. There was simply a total ban, and a threat for those who spoke of it again.

Any wonder it is hard to see the Admins, in general, as "just another member?"

I like YTAP, because I know him through Fan Fic. The times I've dealt with Paradox have been pleasant as well. The rest of the Admins I don't know so well, besides from their posts as Administrators, especially on this last issue. And many of those post have been derogatory towards people supporting the discussion of religion.

So, IMO, if the Admins in general, or specific, stop saying, "We don't care what you think. Why don't you just shut up?" there may be a window of opportunity in which members would want to get to know them. Until then...

-NiceGuy

 

After rereading what I posted a few days ago, I realize I didn't say exactly what I was intending to in my first point (as is so often the case with me )

I don't really think that the admins shouldn't be friends with the members. What I do think is that the admins cannot expect to be looked upon and treated as a regular member. Once you take on the title "administrator", you cease to be a regular member and become an authority figure.

 

After rereading what I posted a few days ago, I realize I didn't say exactly what I was intending to in my first point (as is so often the case with me )

I don't really think that the admins shouldn't be friends with the members. What I do think is that the admins cannot expect to be looked upon and treated as a regular member. Once you take on the title "administrator", you cease to be a regular member and become an authority figure.

 

I guess I wasn't echoing you as much as I thought. I think it's possible to be friends from on high, as it were, but not with the way they (collectively) are exercising dominion recently.

 

I guess I wasn't echoing you as much as I thought. I think it's possible to be friends from on high, as it were, but not with the way they (collectively) are exercising dominion recently.

 

<i'm posting! cover me! your server is acting up again. no threads in jc community, about five new threads around the forums with 'no data.'>

<anyway, my brief note - sounds like most of the admins want to be seen as members. sounds also like most are not. why? let me just repost a few things. btw it is really difficult to see how this kind of thing evolved <unless you're anal about saving threads like me> since so many of the threads showing what has been gradually happening here have been deleted. i'm just doing this off still existing threads, but i do have others - kayla>

<from way back in september>
jasman Administrator posted 07-04-1999 04:30 AM

Kyle Kattarn, read back through this thread and notice who was the first one to make trouble. The official position here is that David_43 is welcome here unless and until he does something wrong. If that's not good enough for you, maybe you should leave. At any rate, it is an a decision that is to be made by the administrators and not by you. So please shut up about it. Thank you.

jasman Administrator posted 07-04-1999 06:33 PM

Well, I couldn't ban David on the basis of something he said in an email to another member, because that happened off the forum. However, he also changed his profile to include some offensive material, and that is on the forum. He has been removed from the forum (again!) And all of his posts have been removed as well.
<okay, here jasman is acting as an administrator, but giving the benefit of the doubt, not allowing off-forum actions to influence him, and pointing out who started the whole thing. everything got explained. david got banned <again> but everyone understood why and most supported. it didn't come across as arbitrary. now compare from later in september>
PreacherBoy Member (at the time) posted 09-24-1999 04:54 PM
This is what happened, more or less. I apologize for taking action, but I had to do something before something much worse happened. Even though I am not an admin, I still have the influence, and I love the JC. I had to do this.

1. I started watching the chat that the Slackers hang out at. Because some of them were scheming against the JC, I showed this all to the admins, and started logging all chats that were going on.
2. After a while, all the crap they were talking about us got us to believe that all of them were scandelous, and must be stopped.
3. Paul deleted all the Slacker threads, because that was just the first of the many steps that we were going to take.
4. It was too soon, I was thinking about doing that, but I wanted to make sure that the Slackers weren't serious.
5. Today I revealed my identity in their chat room, and all hell broke loose.
6. I called gundark on the phone and tried to reason with him, man to man. I cleared a lot of things up, and told him to tell the others to take things reasonably, and that nothing would become of it.
7. I knew that I had to issue some statements to the Admins, so that no more actions against the Slackers would be taken. They did pose a threat to the JC, and because they acted as a single group, the punishment was going to effect all of them. I came to realize that the Slackers are generally nice people; [gundark, Jedi Soul, and even C Creepio] all proved that, even though they got a little emotional about it.
8. After all of this was explained, I came to the JC, to find that this outburst had already started here.

This is what basically what happened. Chyren was the other admin who was in that chat with the Slackers; he was a little miffed because he has had some trouble with hackers on his site.

<i will not repost what has been said off-forum here <i'd only be adding to the problem> but it does not say anywhere near the same thing even as this - kayla>

I know, I shouldn't be explaining this, I should leave it to Paul, but I wanted all of you to know, I was trying to save the JC... this is a place for fun.

If you are so unsure of my actions, and need to talk, email me [or leave your phone n

 

<i'm posting! cover me! your server is acting up again. no threads in jc community, about five new threads around the forums with 'no data.'>

<anyway, my brief note - sounds like most of the admins want to be seen as members. sounds also like most are not. why? let me just repost a few things. btw it is really difficult to see how this kind of thing evolved <unless you're anal about saving threads like me> since so many of the threads showing what has been gradually happening here have been deleted. i'm just doing this off still existing threads, but i do have others - kayla>

<from way back in september>
jasman Administrator posted 07-04-1999 04:30 AM

Kyle Kattarn, read back through this thread and notice who was the first one to make trouble. The official position here is that David_43 is welcome here unless and until he does something wrong. If that's not good enough for you, maybe you should leave. At any rate, it is an a decision that is to be made by the administrators and not by you. So please shut up about it. Thank you.

jasman Administrator posted 07-04-1999 06:33 PM

Well, I couldn't ban David on the basis of something he said in an email to another member, because that happened off the forum. However, he also changed his profile to include some offensive material, and that is on the forum. He has been removed from the forum (again!) And all of his posts have been removed as well.
<okay, here jasman is acting as an administrator, but giving the benefit of the doubt, not allowing off-forum actions to influence him, and pointing out who started the whole thing. everything got explained. david got banned <again> but everyone understood why and most supported. it didn't come across as arbitrary. now compare from later in september>
PreacherBoy Member (at the time) posted 09-24-1999 04:54 PM
This is what happened, more or less. I apologize for taking action, but I had to do something before something much worse happened. Even though I am not an admin, I still have the influence, and I love the JC. I had to do this.

1. I started watching the chat that the Slackers hang out at. Because some of them were scheming against the JC, I showed this all to the admins, and started logging all chats that were going on.
2. After a while, all the crap they were talking about us got us to believe that all of them were scandelous, and must be stopped.
3. Paul deleted all the Slacker threads, because that was just the first of the many steps that we were going to take.
4. It was too soon, I was thinking about doing that, but I wanted to make sure that the Slackers weren't serious.
5. Today I revealed my identity in their chat room, and all hell broke loose.
6. I called gundark on the phone and tried to reason with him, man to man. I cleared a lot of things up, and told him to tell the others to take things reasonably, and that nothing would become of it.
7. I knew that I had to issue some statements to the Admins, so that no more actions against the Slackers would be taken. They did pose a threat to the JC, and because they acted as a single group, the punishment was going to effect all of them. I came to realize that the Slackers are generally nice people; [gundark, Jedi Soul, and even C Creepio] all proved that, even though they got a little emotional about it.
8. After all of this was explained, I came to the JC, to find that this outburst had already started here.

This is what basically what happened. Chyren was the other admin who was in that chat with the Slackers; he was a little miffed because he has had some trouble with hackers on his site.

<i will not repost what has been said off-forum here <i'd only be adding to the problem> but it does not say anywhere near the same thing even as this - kayla>

I know, I shouldn't be explaining this, I should leave it to Paul, but I wanted all of you to know, I was trying to save the JC... this is a place for fun.

If you are so unsure of my actions, and need to talk, email me [or leave your phone n

 

So, what's your point? (In 25 words or less, please)

 

So, what's your point? (In 25 words or less, please)