Remembering Tigers and Padawans...

(i'm going to type this quickly in case this thread gets closed)

As I've said before, you should think of TF.N and the JC as like a business. The purpose of having this site is to encourage visitors to come here. This is the "business" of the venture (TF.N). The administrators are here to maintain order and keep this place fun and keep visitors coming.

Whats happening now according to some admin posts is, they are saying this is a private forum and you can just leave if you don't like it here. Its not the right attitude. True, you must follow rules, but alienating the "customers" is not a way to make your site popular.

I would hate to see the day when new members won't like to join the JC because of its bad reputation and the older members are leaving. This would mean JC dies. It can happen and on ohther SW sites, they are already giving JC a bad name.

Admins should always try to explain their actions: not because you necessarily owe us an explanation, but because it will help members learn why its happened and what not to do in the future. If no one knows why you banned someone/closed someone's thread, then the same mistake will be repeated again later, resulting in more banning/closing and less "business"/visitors to TF.N and JC.N.

Sorry for any typos.

 

[extreme sarcasm]Why don't you take your idea and leave?[/extreme sarcasm]


GMJ

 

[extreme sarcasm]Why don't you take your idea and leave?[/extreme sarcasm]


GMJ

 

Huh?

 

Huh?

 

I wish I could say something significant, but I'm burnt out by the whole religion thing. Before that, I DID kind of still see most of the administrators as regular members with a few extra powers. It's very disconcerting to suddenly find out that such friendly, smart, loveable people actually don't give a **** what you think, and will exert their power towards shutting you up, when all you're trying to do is get them to listen.

 

I wish I could say something significant, but I'm burnt out by the whole religion thing. Before that, I DID kind of still see most of the administrators as regular members with a few extra powers. It's very disconcerting to suddenly find out that such friendly, smart, loveable people actually don't give a **** what you think, and will exert their power towards shutting you up, when all you're trying to do is get them to listen.

 

Short enough? Do you think you can get it now?

I "got it" perfectly well from the previous posts (as I suspect did anyone else who read them)...

It amazes me that people feel they need to "summarize" the issues for the edification of the rest of us apparent morons...and then the summary is longer than all the original thoughts combined.




[This message has been edited by Gardulla's Girdle (edited 11-04-1999).]

 

Short enough? Do you think you can get it now?

I "got it" perfectly well from the previous posts (as I suspect did anyone else who read them)...

It amazes me that people feel they need to "summarize" the issues for the edification of the rest of us apparent morons...and then the summary is longer than all the original thoughts combined.




[This message has been edited by Gardulla's Girdle (edited 11-04-1999).]

 

PreacherBoy:

Yes they can leave. Let's say they do. Now where does that leave TF.N? They do run this board. Anybody in business knows that the majority of businesses are dependant on repeat visitors. I don't think TF.N would appreciate having the core of their repeat visitors leave.

Imagine if a place like Wal-Mart had their employess openly insulting and laughing at new customers, because let's say new customers keep asking the same questions, like what the closing hours for the store are. "Why don't you look around before asking stupid questions? It's posted right there on the door" is the answer they recieve. "Hey, If they don't like it, they can leave." People will leave and shop somewhere else. Sure, they may get some new people traveling through, but how long will those people stay? And how many customers would they be losing to a bad reputation?

 

PreacherBoy:

Yes they can leave. Let's say they do. Now where does that leave TF.N? They do run this board. Anybody in business knows that the majority of businesses are dependant on repeat visitors. I don't think TF.N would appreciate having the core of their repeat visitors leave.

Imagine if a place like Wal-Mart had their employess openly insulting and laughing at new customers, because let's say new customers keep asking the same questions, like what the closing hours for the store are. "Why don't you look around before asking stupid questions? It's posted right there on the door" is the answer they recieve. "Hey, If they don't like it, they can leave." People will leave and shop somewhere else. Sure, they may get some new people traveling through, but how long will those people stay? And how many customers would they be losing to a bad reputation?

 

Wow... it appears my little thread has taken off. Let's see if I can do anything to appease the various complaints on the table. (I apologize for the length of this post, but given the comments I need to make, I feel that it is necessary.)

First of all, I didn't intend for this thread to become a "complaints against the administrators" thread. Those threads are fine, and even necessary--but that's not the topic of this particular discussion. Nevertheless, since the questions are on the table, I might as well answer them.

I'm not in the business of criticizing administrators, but in this case I fear there's little else I can do: closing down the topics discussing the ban on religion was probably out of line. My policy is and has always been to allow such "macro" complain threads on JCN (that is, those threads dealing with major issues), while keeping "micro" complaints (that is, complaints about individual threads or members) confined to e-mail. That's not the policy of all the administrators, but it's pretty much an expression of my beliefs on the matter, and thus I feel that those threads should have been left open.

However, this is not to say that I don't think the religion threads should have been banned. I absolutely hate censoring anything, and it pains me when I have to do that in my capacity as an administrator: even when I'm simply editing a flame, I feel somehow dirty. In this case, though, almost all of the discussions truly were getting out of line. Admittedly, 90% of the JCN population was being intelligent and polite in their discussion of religion. That leaves 10% of the people who were flaming--and in a thread with hundreds of replies, 10% is quite significant.

At several points in the past, religious threads have been temporarily banned. When they resumed again, they were always far more kind and interesting. What was really necessary was a cooling off period; perhaps that's all that will be necessary this time. That decision will have to be made as we go.

Now, I think what's necessary is a clarification of my original idea. I don't think that an administrator and his/her "group" should necessarily remain in constant contact; I just think that members should have somebody specific to turn to if anything goes wrong. I also don't think that everybody in the forums should be assigned to a group, only those who express a specific interest. Now, to respond to PreacherBoy's comments...

We aren't considering limiting the power of the administrators. This would be merely a method to gain advisory information, so that the administrators can remain in contact with the members over specific forum issues. Face it: there are a lot of issues that don't lend themselves to being discussed on the forums, but which nevertheless require more administrative input than we're giving them.

Your second remark, about splitting the JCN, isn't really valid. We're not making political parties here; the groups would be perfectly random. I can work up an Excel macro in all of two seconds to ensure that. Rather than considering it as creating political parties, consider it as a congressman (or, Hathor, congresswoman ) receiving feedback from his/her constituents.

Lastly, about the time... I can only say that this would be voluntary on the part of the administrators, as well as on the part of the JCN members. We don't need to burden this whole thing with rules and regulations; the people who want to participate can participate. I just feel we need informal divisions so that administrators can better know the members of the forum. It's like a college campus: you wouldn't dream of throwing all 20,000 students into one classroom with a panel of twelve professors; you'd simply create twelve different classrooms, so that the problem is more manageable for each teacher.

At any rate, I hope I've given you all some food for thought. Again, I apologize for the length of this post. I'll check back in here in a few hours at most.

 

Wow... it appears my little thread has taken off. Let's see if I can do anything to appease the various complaints on the table. (I apologize for the length of this post, but given the comments I need to make, I feel that it is necessary.)

First of all, I didn't intend for this thread to become a "complaints against the administrators" thread. Those threads are fine, and even necessary--but that's not the topic of this particular discussion. Nevertheless, since the questions are on the table, I might as well answer them.

I'm not in the business of criticizing administrators, but in this case I fear there's little else I can do: closing down the topics discussing the ban on religion was probably out of line. My policy is and has always been to allow such "macro" complain threads on JCN (that is, those threads dealing with major issues), while keeping "micro" complaints (that is, complaints about individual threads or members) confined to e-mail. That's not the policy of all the administrators, but it's pretty much an expression of my beliefs on the matter, and thus I feel that those threads should have been left open.

However, this is not to say that I don't think the religion threads should have been banned. I absolutely hate censoring anything, and it pains me when I have to do that in my capacity as an administrator: even when I'm simply editing a flame, I feel somehow dirty. In this case, though, almost all of the discussions truly were getting out of line. Admittedly, 90% of the JCN population was being intelligent and polite in their discussion of religion. That leaves 10% of the people who were flaming--and in a thread with hundreds of replies, 10% is quite significant.

At several points in the past, religious threads have been temporarily banned. When they resumed again, they were always far more kind and interesting. What was really necessary was a cooling off period; perhaps that's all that will be necessary this time. That decision will have to be made as we go.

Now, I think what's necessary is a clarification of my original idea. I don't think that an administrator and his/her "group" should necessarily remain in constant contact; I just think that members should have somebody specific to turn to if anything goes wrong. I also don't think that everybody in the forums should be assigned to a group, only those who express a specific interest. Now, to respond to PreacherBoy's comments...

We aren't considering limiting the power of the administrators. This would be merely a method to gain advisory information, so that the administrators can remain in contact with the members over specific forum issues. Face it: there are a lot of issues that don't lend themselves to being discussed on the forums, but which nevertheless require more administrative input than we're giving them.

Your second remark, about splitting the JCN, isn't really valid. We're not making political parties here; the groups would be perfectly random. I can work up an Excel macro in all of two seconds to ensure that. Rather than considering it as creating political parties, consider it as a congressman (or, Hathor, congresswoman ) receiving feedback from his/her constituents.

Lastly, about the time... I can only say that this would be voluntary on the part of the administrators, as well as on the part of the JCN members. We don't need to burden this whole thing with rules and regulations; the people who want to participate can participate. I just feel we need informal divisions so that administrators can better know the members of the forum. It's like a college campus: you wouldn't dream of throwing all 20,000 students into one classroom with a panel of twelve professors; you'd simply create twelve different classrooms, so that the problem is more manageable for each teacher.

At any rate, I hope I've given you all some food for thought. Again, I apologize for the length of this post. I'll check back in here in a few hours at most.

 

I think that's a great idea. Hopefully, all of the other administrators will get behind it. It would be a challenge to create and organize, I think, but this kid's smart.

By the way, can I request to be in Paradox's group?

 

I think that's a great idea. Hopefully, all of the other administrators will get behind it. It would be a challenge to create and organize, I think, but this kid's smart.

By the way, can I request to be in Paradox's group?

 

Funny how you use the word "Advisor" Paradox.

 

Funny how you use the word "Advisor" Paradox.

 

I like the idea too, Paradox, and would like to be in your group. Of course, with the enthusiasm you are getting from the other admins, your group might be the only one.

-NiceGuy

 

I like the idea too, Paradox, and would like to be in your group. Of course, with the enthusiasm you are getting from the other admins, your group might be the only one.

-NiceGuy

 

Paradox: Please count me in, you wise, wise man.

 

Paradox: Please count me in, you wise, wise man.

 

Whatever, PB, I was paying attention and I don't care what the reason behind it was...it was still spam. I'm not here to pick a fight with you. I just find it hypocrtical that some guy made a joke the other day in one of these threads about being 30 posts short of some milestone and you gave him a smart retort about spamming. Yet, probably 25-30% of your posts are just that - spam.

It seems that Paradox and YTAP are trying to restore some peace around here, and I think that's great, and I appreciate their efforts. Thanks, guys.

[This message has been edited by Cool Hand Luke (edited 11-04-1999).]

 

Whatever, PB, I was paying attention and I don't care what the reason behind it was...it was still spam. I'm not here to pick a fight with you. I just find it hypocrtical that some guy made a joke the other day in one of these threads about being 30 posts short of some milestone and you gave him a smart retort about spamming. Yet, probably 25-30% of your posts are just that - spam.

It seems that Paradox and YTAP are trying to restore some peace around here, and I think that's great, and I appreciate their efforts. Thanks, guys.

[This message has been edited by Cool Hand Luke (edited 11-04-1999).]

 

Jaro made this post in a different thread, and I think it was intended as a response to this one. If not, the topics are so similar that I feel it's justified to bring the two together. So, without further delay... drumroll please... Jaro's post.

I work as a ?Student Navigation Assistant? for a library on campus. This title means that I assist patrons with basic computing problems (and, in my case, sometimes not so basic ones) and research questions. I am there to serve their needs and answer their questions. I was chosen to help those people because the people who interviewed me felt that I could reflect the library?s ?personality? and because I am good at dealing with people. My friend, who also applied for this job, was given a position in circulation ? shelving books ? because he did not have the ability to interact with people.
The library is there to serve the people who choose to visit it. It makes no money off of the people that come here, unless they have overdue books. The money is made solely from monetary gifts from alumni or research institutions and the tuition we pay to go to school here. I am required to help anyone who walks through these doors, no matter their question or where they came from. My campus is in a not-so-good neighborhood, so many high school students and teachers come here looking for information, which we gladly give to them as best we can. These students or local teachers do not contribute to the library in any fashion except to ask questions of us and use our resources.

With the number of new students and people that come here each year, repeat questions are inevitable. At the beginning of the year, we help new students set up their campus email accounts and hook up their personal computers to the campus network. I work merely two hours on a Thursday afternoon, and during a two hour period at the beginning of the semester, I told 50 or more people how to set up their email accounts. And I did it with a smile each time.

I understand that some admins are more diplomatic than others, just as some have more technical expertise. However, as Sabé pointed out, the people that happen to come across this place for the first time are most likely not going to read pages and pages of old threads looking for what they are interested in ? they will merely start a new thread. I feel that, in order not to ostracize these potential new users, they must be dealt with diplomatically, shown where they can find the information for which they are looking.

The Role of an Administrator is to answer questions, do the ?menial? labor of closing and deleting threads or fixing corrupt threads, and to participate in the everyday ?life? of the JC. An admin has complained to me about being ?dehumanized,? but I feel that he has brought that upon himself. For example, when YODA the all powerful was made an admin, he made a ?YTAP sucks? thread, and another one in an attempt to get to know some users better. This kept him human, and a regular member. When PreacherBoy was re-made an admin, he created a thread entitled ?hee hee hee.? I fully understand that it was Joel?s personality that made him create a thread titled like that, but it also made many users (myself included) totally turned off to him as a member and as an admin. Other administrators have isolated themselves into their status and seem to make no attempt to get to know the users at all ? and then complain about being dehumanized.

I am not claiming to know everything that goes on here ? on the contrary, I know I am in the dark about a lot of things. I?ve only been here since September first, and I?m not trying to hide that. However, I have read many older threads and I have talked to many people in the different cliques. The opinions and observations I state here are mine alone and come from what I have seen in the past few months.

I'm about to make a post of my own below this, but I don't want the two to be confused, so I'm creating them as two seperate messages.

 

Jaro made this post in a different thread, and I think it was intended as a response to this one. If not, the topics are so similar that I feel it's justified to bring the two together. So, without further delay... drumroll please... Jaro's post.

I work as a ?Student Navigation Assistant? for a library on campus. This title means that I assist patrons with basic computing problems (and, in my case, sometimes not so basic ones) and research questions. I am there to serve their needs and answer their questions. I was chosen to help those people because the people who interviewed me felt that I could reflect the library?s ?personality? and because I am good at dealing with people. My friend, who also applied for this job, was given a position in circulation ? shelving books ? because he did not have the ability to interact with people.
The library is there to serve the people who choose to visit it. It makes no money off of the people that come here, unless they have overdue books. The money is made solely from monetary gifts from alumni or research institutions and the tuition we pay to go to school here. I am required to help anyone who walks through these doors, no matter their question or where they came from. My campus is in a not-so-good neighborhood, so many high school students and teachers come here looking for information, which we gladly give to them as best we can. These students or local teachers do not contribute to the library in any fashion except to ask questions of us and use our resources.

With the number of new students and people that come here each year, repeat questions are inevitable. At the beginning of the year, we help new students set up their campus email accounts and hook up their personal computers to the campus network. I work merely two hours on a Thursday afternoon, and during a two hour period at the beginning of the semester, I told 50 or more people how to set up their email accounts. And I did it with a smile each time.

I understand that some admins are more diplomatic than others, just as some have more technical expertise. However, as Sabé pointed out, the people that happen to come across this place for the first time are most likely not going to read pages and pages of old threads looking for what they are interested in ? they will merely start a new thread. I feel that, in order not to ostracize these potential new users, they must be dealt with diplomatically, shown where they can find the information for which they are looking.

The Role of an Administrator is to answer questions, do the ?menial? labor of closing and deleting threads or fixing corrupt threads, and to participate in the everyday ?life? of the JC. An admin has complained to me about being ?dehumanized,? but I feel that he has brought that upon himself. For example, when YODA the all powerful was made an admin, he made a ?YTAP sucks? thread, and another one in an attempt to get to know some users better. This kept him human, and a regular member. When PreacherBoy was re-made an admin, he created a thread entitled ?hee hee hee.? I fully understand that it was Joel?s personality that made him create a thread titled like that, but it also made many users (myself included) totally turned off to him as a member and as an admin. Other administrators have isolated themselves into their status and seem to make no attempt to get to know the users at all ? and then complain about being dehumanized.

I am not claiming to know everything that goes on here ? on the contrary, I know I am in the dark about a lot of things. I?ve only been here since September first, and I?m not trying to hide that. However, I have read many older threads and I have talked to many people in the different cliques. The opinions and observations I state here are mine alone and come from what I have seen in the past few months.

I'm about to make a post of my own below this, but I don't want the two to be confused, so I'm creating them as two seperate messages.