Remembering Tigers and Padawans...

Ol'val, all.

Before I go any further, I will give sincere thanks to Zoro for the ability to make this post, and to all those who worked behind the scenes to bring these Forums to recovery -- again.

Now, as to the (other) roles of the administrators:
The topic refuses to be swept under the rug, yes?

But here, now, I will address only one point: this matter of time that keeps coming up -- and since the idea of brevity keeps arising (ref. Forum8/HTML/007710.html Forum8/HTML/007710.html ), I will begin with a brief abstract:

1. If one can make time to close a thread, one can make time for a twenty word standard, respectful reply.

2. Once one has made the reply, the closed thread should be left undeleted long enough for the reply to be seen by the original poster.

It seems simple, no? And yet it appears it is not: for this time issue has been brought up repeatedly. Certainly administrators, even as members, have lives outside the Forums, and thus time becomes a necessary consideration. But how much time does it really take to type in:
Paradox Jedi Master posted 11-02-1999 08:00 PM

The first of us were appointed by the TFN staff; later, new administrators were decided upon by the existing administrators.

And, since this topic has been discussed a dozen times before, I'm closing this thread. (Don't take it personally; that's just our policy. Sorry! )
stinrab Jedi Master posted 11-04-1999 11:22 PM

There are already plenty of topics on who will be the next Anakin. Please contribute in those instead of starting new threads
Jedi Jasman Jedi Master posted 11-02-1999 10:20 PM

It is not "generally assumed." It is speculated by some, but I don't think it's going to happen. What I do know is that there have been many threads on this topic, so I am closing this one for being redundant. Please post your comments to an existing thread on this topic. For a list of threads on this topic, look here:
Index #6: Love and Marriage [linked]
For a master index to popular topics, look here:
Official Forum INDEX [linked]
dhutt Jedi Padawan posted 11-04-1999 09:52 PM

I thought I cleared that first one by mistake!


YODA the all powerful Jedi Master posted 11-04-1999 10:35 PM

No problem dhutt.

I will close this one down, and one of the duplicate posts.

Welcome to the JC!
YTAP Jedi Master posted 11-01-1999 11:51 PM

I don't think this subject is appropriate for a family forum. Plus there are already a few Natalie ve. Carrie threads. Check the index for them.
Chyren Jedi Master posted 11-02-1999 10:58 AM

Please try not to post redundant topics. There are two topics on Yoda v Palpatine on the first page of the index. This is relevant to either of them.
Chyren Jedi Master posted 11-02-1999 03:55 AM

There are a ton of topics covering this. Please look around the forum before posting cloned threads.
PreacherBoy Jedi Master posted 11-02-1999 09:16 AM
We know

There's already a thread on this, please discuss it there: Forum8/HTML/007928.html Forum8/HTML/007928.html

It's a sad day in my home town...
You see? You can do it.

The links are a bonus, some easy to get, some not -- but I do not think anyone would get annoyed/angry/frustrated/hurt if no link was given. Even if the explanation is copied and pasted (as indeed at least two of those quoted were), that does not matter. What matters is that each time the administrator in question has taken 15 seconds to type/paste in an explanation as to why the thread was closed, and to let the poster know that the closure is not to be taken personally. In other words, to let the poster feel they are worthy of those fifteen seconds of administrator time (as opposed to the standard business world practice of "my time is infinitely more valuable than your time"). It is not much of an investment -- but it does matter: for it is the explanation, however brief, that is important, as well as the tone of that explanation.

And yes: while I can testify from experience that the same scenarios, the same threads, the same questions will crop

 

Preacher Boy

Quite frankly, I'd rather be hated for the person that I am rather than liked for the person I'm not.

 

Ol'val, all.

Before I go any further, I will give sincere thanks to Zoro for the ability to make this post, and to all those who worked behind the scenes to bring these Forums to recovery -- again.

Now, as to the (other) roles of the administrators:
The topic refuses to be swept under the rug, yes?

But here, now, I will address only one point: this matter of time that keeps coming up -- and since the idea of brevity keeps arising (ref. Forum8/HTML/007710.html Forum8/HTML/007710.html ), I will begin with a brief abstract:

1. If one can make time to close a thread, one can make time for a twenty word standard, respectful reply.

2. Once one has made the reply, the closed thread should be left undeleted long enough for the reply to be seen by the original poster.

It seems simple, no? And yet it appears it is not: for this time issue has been brought up repeatedly. Certainly administrators, even as members, have lives outside the Forums, and thus time becomes a necessary consideration. But how much time does it really take to type in:
Paradox Jedi Master posted 11-02-1999 08:00 PM

The first of us were appointed by the TFN staff; later, new administrators were decided upon by the existing administrators.

And, since this topic has been discussed a dozen times before, I'm closing this thread. (Don't take it personally; that's just our policy. Sorry! )
stinrab Jedi Master posted 11-04-1999 11:22 PM

There are already plenty of topics on who will be the next Anakin. Please contribute in those instead of starting new threads
Jedi Jasman Jedi Master posted 11-02-1999 10:20 PM

It is not "generally assumed." It is speculated by some, but I don't think it's going to happen. What I do know is that there have been many threads on this topic, so I am closing this one for being redundant. Please post your comments to an existing thread on this topic. For a list of threads on this topic, look here:
Index #6: Love and Marriage [linked]
For a master index to popular topics, look here:
Official Forum INDEX [linked]
dhutt Jedi Padawan posted 11-04-1999 09:52 PM

I thought I cleared that first one by mistake!


YODA the all powerful Jedi Master posted 11-04-1999 10:35 PM

No problem dhutt.

I will close this one down, and one of the duplicate posts.

Welcome to the JC!
YTAP Jedi Master posted 11-01-1999 11:51 PM

I don't think this subject is appropriate for a family forum. Plus there are already a few Natalie ve. Carrie threads. Check the index for them.
Chyren Jedi Master posted 11-02-1999 10:58 AM

Please try not to post redundant topics. There are two topics on Yoda v Palpatine on the first page of the index. This is relevant to either of them.
Chyren Jedi Master posted 11-02-1999 03:55 AM

There are a ton of topics covering this. Please look around the forum before posting cloned threads.
PreacherBoy Jedi Master posted 11-02-1999 09:16 AM
We know

There's already a thread on this, please discuss it there: Forum8/HTML/007928.html Forum8/HTML/007928.html

It's a sad day in my home town...
You see? You can do it.

The links are a bonus, some easy to get, some not -- but I do not think anyone would get annoyed/angry/frustrated/hurt if no link was given. Even if the explanation is copied and pasted (as indeed at least two of those quoted were), that does not matter. What matters is that each time the administrator in question has taken 15 seconds to type/paste in an explanation as to why the thread was closed, and to let the poster know that the closure is not to be taken personally. In other words, to let the poster feel they are worthy of those fifteen seconds of administrator time (as opposed to the standard business world practice of "my time is infinitely more valuable than your time"). It is not much of an investment -- but it does matter: for it is the explanation, however brief, that is important, as well as the tone of that explanation.

And yes: while I can testify from experience that the same scenarios, the same threads, the same questions will crop

 

Then I ask you this: How was me posting "Hee hee hee" a bad thing? All I did was realize that I had my powers restored, and I posted that it took me a while to figure it out.

 

Then I ask you this: How was me posting "Hee hee hee" a bad thing? All I did was realize that I had my powers restored, and I posted that it took me a while to figure it out.

 

Preacherboy, I hope you understand that these things I say are not meant as an attack. I truly want to help you, the other admins and the forum. It hurts me deeply to see us divided like this, but I do not think that this is an issue that can just be ignored any longer.

As a person who has been only an observer of the things that have been going on, what I have seen from you, PB, is a severe lack of respect for other members. This is clearly demonstrated in your reply to kayla on this very thread.

I would guess that your response to this would be that you feel that you yourself are not treated with due respect. Unfortunately, the "do unto others what has been done to you" way of living doesn't work. This has not only been proven in my own life, but througout history.

If you would like to continue this conversation, I would be happy to talk to you over ICQ or e-mail.

Again, all I want is what's best for the forum. I love this place. Believe it or not, it's actually helped me through some hard times. I hate to see it this way.

 

Preacherboy, I hope you understand that these things I say are not meant as an attack. I truly want to help you, the other admins and the forum. It hurts me deeply to see us divided like this, but I do not think that this is an issue that can just be ignored any longer.

As a person who has been only an observer of the things that have been going on, what I have seen from you, PB, is a severe lack of respect for other members. This is clearly demonstrated in your reply to kayla on this very thread.

I would guess that your response to this would be that you feel that you yourself are not treated with due respect. Unfortunately, the "do unto others what has been done to you" way of living doesn't work. This has not only been proven in my own life, but througout history.

If you would like to continue this conversation, I would be happy to talk to you over ICQ or e-mail.

Again, all I want is what's best for the forum. I love this place. Believe it or not, it's actually helped me through some hard times. I hate to see it this way.

 

No, I respect Shar Kida highly, and I do read the posts, but what I can't do is take time to take it apart and refute it. As much as I would like to, I can't. First I would have to write down the basic points in his argument, then pick out the major from the minor, then give my explanation, with giving Shar Kida's major points. If the argument was given in a concentrated and to the point form, I would be able to respond to them easier. As all of the Admins have pointed out, we rarely have time for all this, and we sacrafice a lot of time that we shouldn't. Right now I should be working on moving a Knowledge Base to our Action Request System, but I am not.

 

No, I respect Shar Kida highly, and I do read the posts, but what I can't do is take time to take it apart and refute it. As much as I would like to, I can't. First I would have to write down the basic points in his argument, then pick out the major from the minor, then give my explanation, with giving Shar Kida's major points. If the argument was given in a concentrated and to the point form, I would be able to respond to them easier. As all of the Admins have pointed out, we rarely have time for all this, and we sacrafice a lot of time that we shouldn't. Right now I should be working on moving a Knowledge Base to our Action Request System, but I am not.

 

Although I disagree somewhat with what you just said, PB, take a look at your last post as compared to this:

Yeah, please. There's no way in hell that I am going to read all that.

As I've told you before, be sweet and to the point. That's what business asks, time is precious...
Do you see the difference?

 

Although I disagree somewhat with what you just said, PB, take a look at your last post as compared to this:

Yeah, please. There's no way in hell that I am going to read all that.

As I've told you before, be sweet and to the point. That's what business asks, time is precious...
Do you see the difference?

 

Ok, I said read instead of respond, you also have to take into consideration that stuff happens in RL where I shouldn't even post in these types of threads, but I do. Why? Well if I didn't, you'd complain about that as well, and how I am not doing my Admin responsibilities.

[This message has been edited by PreacherBoy (edited 11-05-1999).]

 

My thoughts exactly Andrusys (4 words)

GMJ

 

Ok, I said read instead of respond, you also have to take into consideration that stuff happens in RL where I shouldn't even post in these types of threads, but I do. Why? Well if I didn't, you'd complain about that as well, and how I am not doing my Admin responsibilities.

[This message has been edited by PreacherBoy (edited 11-05-1999).]

 

My thoughts exactly Andrusys (4 words)

GMJ

 

One thing I've seen since I've returned is that (aside from a lot of long time posters becoming Admins) Far more posts are being closed now then ever before.

The one thing that seems true is that their has been an influx of people (and this started before I left) who are unwilling to tolerate the restrictions placed on them by the Admins. I mean when I first came here in Sept 98, Threads were closed without explination, because everyone knew the reasons already.


It seems to me that many recently closed posts have been closed in an affable manor, but the poster has been put off by the mere fact that their is an Authority figure at all.

If the Administration is to be viewed as regular posters, then that requires regular posters to respect them. Not cower before them, not believe their every utterence. They too make mistakes, but have faith that they are trying to do what's best and that they deserve the respect due anybody and the respect due them as the people who make this all possible.


Okay, I've been completely rambling and not making any sense, sorry. Here I have possibly a bad Metaphor.


The Admins seem to be like NFL refs. The eaverage everyday poster is the Rabid fan and the offended poster who's thread was Yanked is the DB who was just called for Pass interference.

The Rabid Fans, whether they agree with the call or not think the Admins are not doing their jobs, the DB is mad, because he doesn't think he did anything wrong. And the Admins are desperatly trying to be fair. Not always succeeding, but always trying.

These communications posts are like a call for instant Replay. Okay enough with the bad puns, please someone more coheerent post.

 

One thing I've seen since I've returned is that (aside from a lot of long time posters becoming Admins) Far more posts are being closed now then ever before.

The one thing that seems true is that their has been an influx of people (and this started before I left) who are unwilling to tolerate the restrictions placed on them by the Admins. I mean when I first came here in Sept 98, Threads were closed without explination, because everyone knew the reasons already.


It seems to me that many recently closed posts have been closed in an affable manor, but the poster has been put off by the mere fact that their is an Authority figure at all.

If the Administration is to be viewed as regular posters, then that requires regular posters to respect them. Not cower before them, not believe their every utterence. They too make mistakes, but have faith that they are trying to do what's best and that they deserve the respect due anybody and the respect due them as the people who make this all possible.


Okay, I've been completely rambling and not making any sense, sorry. Here I have possibly a bad Metaphor.


The Admins seem to be like NFL refs. The eaverage everyday poster is the Rabid fan and the offended poster who's thread was Yanked is the DB who was just called for Pass interference.

The Rabid Fans, whether they agree with the call or not think the Admins are not doing their jobs, the DB is mad, because he doesn't think he did anything wrong. And the Admins are desperatly trying to be fair. Not always succeeding, but always trying.

These communications posts are like a call for instant Replay. Okay enough with the bad puns, please someone more coheerent post.

 

I feel the need to step in and say something important:

blah blah blah

Carry on.

 

I feel the need to step in and say something important:

blah blah blah

Carry on.

 

Ol'val, all.

All right, I can appreciate that time is a consideration. (I myself am rarely able to devote more than five minutes to any given reply these days -- one of the reasons my P(SA) Council thread reply is running late.)

So, briefly (no examples, no gloss, just the points listed above and a summarizing conclusion).

Primary resumé:
<OL TYPE=1>
<LI>Thank you, Zoro, for the ability to make this post, and to all those who worked behind the scenes to bring these Forums to recovery -- again.
<LI>Major Point: One of the major problems in the JC, as defined in this thread, seems to be lack of respect all around
<LI>Such lack of respect is much more noticable in administrators than in members, not necessarily because it is more common among administrators, but simply because administrators have been placed in positions of some authority and thus are perceived as examples (regardless of how they feel about it)
<LI>Respect is central to friendship
<LI>Major Point: The JC.N does not belong to the administrators. See Appendix A (Jaro's library post above)
<LI>Major Point: If one can make time to close a thread, one can make time for a twenty word standard, respectful reply. See Appendix B (my post above) for existing examples.
<LI>Major Pointnce one has made the reply, the closed thread should be left undeleted long enough for the reply to be seen by the original poster.</OL>

Secondary (suppporting) points:

A. Why Explain a Closed Thread?
<UL TYPE=SQUARE><LI>Respect for the poster, even when s/he has made a mistake, posted a redundant thread, posted in the wrong Forum, or posted a particularly odd theory
<LI>Lets the poster know that the closure is not to be taken personally
<LI>Lets the poster feel they are worthy of those fifteen seconds of administrator time (as opposed to the standard business world practice of "my time is infinitely more valuable than your time")</UL>

B. What Constitutes A Minimal Effective Explanation?
(See Appendix B for existing examples)
<UL TYPE=SQUARE><LI>Twenty word or less factual explanation of why the thread was closed
<LI>Takes about 15 seconds to type
<LI>Links are a bonus, but not absolutely necessary
<LI>Cutting and pasting of a standard explanation is perfectly acceptable
<LI>Tone of the explanation is vital. Opinions are acceptable, mocking or flaming the member or the post is not</UL>

C. What About Redundant Threads?
<UL TYPE=SQUARE><LI>Redundant threads will always happen
<LI>Other members often post an explanation of why the thread is redundant, and sometimes even provide the relevant link
<LI>Such explanations save the administrator having to explain</UL>

D. When and How Should Members Post An Explanation?
(See Appendix B for existing examples)
<UL TYPE=SQUARE><LI>If a member spots a redundant or otherwise inappropriate thread by a junior member, and if the member is able to respond factually without flaming or mocking the new member
<LI>Inform the person their thread is likely to be closed or moved, and why
<LI>Post appropriate link, if time permits
<LI>Welcoming to the Forum optional, but desirable
<LI>Ridiculing the new member for his/her audacity in posting (gasp!) a redundant thread (or any type of mockery or flaming for that matter) does not show mutual respect and is thus unacceptable
<LI>Posting "Admins, close this thread!" does not show respect to the administrators, and is thus unacceptable</UL>

E. Why Not Immediately Delete Closed Threads?
<UL TYPE=SQUARE><LI>Threads should remain undeleted long enough for the original poster to see the reply!
<LI>Some members may not be able to check in to the JC every day, or even every other day, or may not have a state-of-the-art computer, and so may not be able to immediately see the explanation of closure
<LI>As a general rule, I recommend leaving closed threads in place until they fall off the "last five days" listing, thus giving a reasonable amount of time for the reply to be seen</UL>

Summary
<OL TYPE=1>
<LI>Respect is of the utmost importance, whether "member to member," "administrator to member," or "member to ad

 

Ol'val, all.

All right, I can appreciate that time is a consideration. (I myself am rarely able to devote more than five minutes to any given reply these days -- one of the reasons my P(SA) Council thread reply is running late.)

So, briefly (no examples, no gloss, just the points listed above and a summarizing conclusion).

Primary resumé:
<OL TYPE=1>
<LI>Thank you, Zoro, for the ability to make this post, and to all those who worked behind the scenes to bring these Forums to recovery -- again.
<LI>Major Point: One of the major problems in the JC, as defined in this thread, seems to be lack of respect all around
<LI>Such lack of respect is much more noticable in administrators than in members, not necessarily because it is more common among administrators, but simply because administrators have been placed in positions of some authority and thus are perceived as examples (regardless of how they feel about it)
<LI>Respect is central to friendship
<LI>Major Point: The JC.N does not belong to the administrators. See Appendix A (Jaro's library post above)
<LI>Major Point: If one can make time to close a thread, one can make time for a twenty word standard, respectful reply. See Appendix B (my post above) for existing examples.
<LI>Major Pointnce one has made the reply, the closed thread should be left undeleted long enough for the reply to be seen by the original poster.</OL>

Secondary (suppporting) points:

A. Why Explain a Closed Thread?
<UL TYPE=SQUARE><LI>Respect for the poster, even when s/he has made a mistake, posted a redundant thread, posted in the wrong Forum, or posted a particularly odd theory
<LI>Lets the poster know that the closure is not to be taken personally
<LI>Lets the poster feel they are worthy of those fifteen seconds of administrator time (as opposed to the standard business world practice of "my time is infinitely more valuable than your time")</UL>

B. What Constitutes A Minimal Effective Explanation?
(See Appendix B for existing examples)
<UL TYPE=SQUARE><LI>Twenty word or less factual explanation of why the thread was closed
<LI>Takes about 15 seconds to type
<LI>Links are a bonus, but not absolutely necessary
<LI>Cutting and pasting of a standard explanation is perfectly acceptable
<LI>Tone of the explanation is vital. Opinions are acceptable, mocking or flaming the member or the post is not</UL>

C. What About Redundant Threads?
<UL TYPE=SQUARE><LI>Redundant threads will always happen
<LI>Other members often post an explanation of why the thread is redundant, and sometimes even provide the relevant link
<LI>Such explanations save the administrator having to explain</UL>

D. When and How Should Members Post An Explanation?
(See Appendix B for existing examples)
<UL TYPE=SQUARE><LI>If a member spots a redundant or otherwise inappropriate thread by a junior member, and if the member is able to respond factually without flaming or mocking the new member
<LI>Inform the person their thread is likely to be closed or moved, and why
<LI>Post appropriate link, if time permits
<LI>Welcoming to the Forum optional, but desirable
<LI>Ridiculing the new member for his/her audacity in posting (gasp!) a redundant thread (or any type of mockery or flaming for that matter) does not show mutual respect and is thus unacceptable
<LI>Posting "Admins, close this thread!" does not show respect to the administrators, and is thus unacceptable</UL>

E. Why Not Immediately Delete Closed Threads?
<UL TYPE=SQUARE><LI>Threads should remain undeleted long enough for the original poster to see the reply!
<LI>Some members may not be able to check in to the JC every day, or even every other day, or may not have a state-of-the-art computer, and so may not be able to immediately see the explanation of closure
<LI>As a general rule, I recommend leaving closed threads in place until they fall off the "last five days" listing, thus giving a reasonable amount of time for the reply to be seen</UL>

Summary
<OL TYPE=1>
<LI>Respect is of the utmost importance, whether "member to member," "administrator to member," or "member to ad

 

The summary was five pages. Yikes.

 

The summary was five pages. Yikes.

 

I have to agree with this last post.(uh, I mean 2 posts up )

Much as I have never personally run afowl of the Admins (to my knowledge )
I think it is important to realize that the power of being an Administrator MUST be tempered by the Responsibility that power requires.

To bring it all back into a Star Wars focus.
Do you the Admins want to be Yoda/ Obiwan/Quigon?
Or do you want to be The Emperor/Darth Vader/Maul?

Similarly, We the Vast Rabble of Councilors need to Respect the Authority figures and in fact treat them as the Fallible Humans that they are. Everyone has a bad day.

I am not, nor would I call out any Admins, even if I had been affected directly.

You the Admins may have time restraints that keep you from the forums. I know I do, but I think that if you are going to accept the call to Admin status, then you need to accept the time requirments. Things like explaining the reasons you close a post may not be a requirment, but I respectfully suggest that it should. On the basis of Decency. All of the people that come here to discuss Star Wars and PArticipate in this community Deserve that show of Respect.Obviously their are breakdowns, obviously bad things will happen, obviously some posters won't show you the respect that your position demands of you. That's what happens when you are in that sort of position. Shirking your responsibilities simply sends the entire structure spiralling to its doom.


Again, I don't mean to be critical of the Admins, but I think that there has been a lot of bad feelings recently that could have been avoided. In general, I think the Admins both old and New are doing a tremendous job.

Incidently, somewhat back on topic, Paradox, I like the Idea of implimenting some sort of system where each poster has a specific Admin they go to. Much like School Counsolors withoput that much responsibilities. I don't know about the hardware/SW feasability, but I would think that any new members would get an Email listing who their Admin was. Admins would also need an Email account strictly for Admin duty things. Ideally it would be some form of database that could be altered if forinstance the server crashes and someone makes a new screen name, they should be able to email their former admin and request their new screen name be placed with the old admin.


[This message has been edited by John of the collective (edited 11-05-1999).]

 

I have to agree with this last post.(uh, I mean 2 posts up )

Much as I have never personally run afowl of the Admins (to my knowledge )
I think it is important to realize that the power of being an Administrator MUST be tempered by the Responsibility that power requires.

To bring it all back into a Star Wars focus.
Do you the Admins want to be Yoda/ Obiwan/Quigon?
Or do you want to be The Emperor/Darth Vader/Maul?

Similarly, We the Vast Rabble of Councilors need to Respect the Authority figures and in fact treat them as the Fallible Humans that they are. Everyone has a bad day.

I am not, nor would I call out any Admins, even if I had been affected directly.

You the Admins may have time restraints that keep you from the forums. I know I do, but I think that if you are going to accept the call to Admin status, then you need to accept the time requirments. Things like explaining the reasons you close a post may not be a requirment, but I respectfully suggest that it should. On the basis of Decency. All of the people that come here to discuss Star Wars and PArticipate in this community Deserve that show of Respect.Obviously their are breakdowns, obviously bad things will happen, obviously some posters won't show you the respect that your position demands of you. That's what happens when you are in that sort of position. Shirking your responsibilities simply sends the entire structure spiralling to its doom.


Again, I don't mean to be critical of the Admins, but I think that there has been a lot of bad feelings recently that could have been avoided. In general, I think the Admins both old and New are doing a tremendous job.

Incidently, somewhat back on topic, Paradox, I like the Idea of implimenting some sort of system where each poster has a specific Admin they go to. Much like School Counsolors withoput that much responsibilities. I don't know about the hardware/SW feasability, but I would think that any new members would get an Email listing who their Admin was. Admins would also need an Email account strictly for Admin duty things. Ideally it would be some form of database that could be altered if forinstance the server crashes and someone makes a new screen name, they should be able to email their former admin and request their new screen name be placed with the old admin.


[This message has been edited by John of the collective (edited 11-05-1999).]