Repentance and the Dark Side (possible DJ spoilers)

I have been thinking a little about the process that various characters have gone through in turning back from the Dark Side. It doesn't seem to add up, to me.

To give you a little background, I spent two years as a missionary for my church (I'm LDS), teaching people about repentance and how to change their lives for the better. As part of that, we outlined the process that a person has to follow to repent. First, they must recognize that they have done wrong. Second, they must feel sorrow for their actions. Third, they should ask those they have wronged to forgive them. Fourth, they should correct their errors/actions as much as possible (a little hard in the case of killing someone). Finally, they must never repeat the same offense.

While considering that, I thought of some of the various characters that have turned to the Dark Side and the process that they had to follow to return to the light. (To repent literally means to turn back.) They seem very similar, yet also quite different.

For example, Luke turned to the Dark Side in DE. We saw his return to the light, yet he still suffered the effects of his actions until the time of VotF, when he realizes how much he was influenced by the Dark Side.

Zekk also went through a similar process in the YJK books. You can see the effect that that has had on him in SbS.

Finally, it seems to me that Kyp has tried to follow that process, but has only started to succeed at following it as of DJ. It seems that he has finally recognized his errors and started to feel real sorrow for them. It should be interesting to see where his path leads in the future.

I, personally, don't believe that Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader truley repented in RotJ, because it is not something that you can do in an instant. I believe that he began that process, but died before completing it.

Any thoughts on this?

 

Generally, I would agree with you. But you have to remember, nothing about Anakin Skywalker was normal. He was glowing, in good Jedi form, along with Yoda and Ben...I think it's safe to say that the guy was light side all the way.

JMA

 

I'd agree with you, JMA except for my own personal experience.

As a missionary, I helped people change their lives and repent of things they had done before. Repentance is a long process, and not something that you can do in just a few minutes. Remember, none of the people I was working with had done anything close to what Vader did as a Dark Lord of the Sith, yet it was still difficult for each of them to repent.

Part of repentance requires that you still suffer at least some of the consequences of your actions, even after starting the repentance process. I don't think that Vader's actions as a Sith Lord can so easily be washed away.

Kimball Kinnison

 

*shrug*

Your points are excellent Kimball, and in the real world, I definitely 100% agree with you. Our own personal dark sides forever dominate our own destiny, is something I believe to be true. The bad choices we make, even more than the good ones, influence our lives for years to come.

But what we have to remember is, this is movie-Land. More importantly, Star Wars movie land. I think George Lucas wanted us to assume that Vader completely repented, and was of the light-side when he died.

JMA

 

I'm not saying that he died a vile old man, only that he had only begun the process, not finished it. After all, no one is perfect and it is the direction you are going that is more important than where you are.

Remember, in TaB, Anakin Skywalker was still undergoing the repentance process by asking forgiveness from Leia. I think that he probably continued it from there as well.

Kimball Kinnison

 

maybe he started to repent very slowly before RotJ. other than that, i completely agree with you.

 

It seems as though Vader's/Anakin's repentance process is a continuing thing, even beyond the grave. The fact that he could sit with Obi-Wan and Yoda (people who had been his mortal enemies for years) in the spirit plain speaks about journey that he embarks upon. It seems to me that perhaps there is a fourth element that we might be missing: Grace. Perhaps grace can jumpstart the repentance process, and open it up. Vader experienced Luke's ultimate grace at the end, when Luke forgave him, without Vader actually asking for or doing anything to deserve this. This may have allowed the repentence process to continue beyond his physical death.

 

Up!

 

Anakin Skywalker's return from the dark side may have begun as early as the end of ESB. In fact in ROTJ I think the Emperor suspects he is turning away from the darkside. He asks Vader if he is clear on the subject. He also seems eager to replace Vader with Luke.. I think after going face to face with his son and seeing Luke toss himself into a deep shaft before joining the dark side made him question his choices . At least it may have nudged him. We hear him talk regrettably in ROTJ. "It's to late for me my son" Sounds almost like he is trying to convince himself.

I do think some returns are too easy. Kyp's bugs me because there are no consequences for his actions under the Darkside. Sure a killer may repent and be sorry but they are still responsible for their actions.

 

I do think some returns are too easy. Kyp's bugs me because there are no consequences for his actions under the Darkside.

I agree that Kyp has never faced any "real" consequences for his actions. He has been defended and protected by Luke. On the other hand, large portions of the galaxy hate Kyp. Even among fellow Jedi he has a difficult time finding trust and acceptance. And he must live with himself every day with the knowledge of what he has done. While he hasn't ben punished, he has faced consequences.

As far as Kyps' return being easy, I'm not entirely sure he has fully returned. He has on more than on occasion used the Force to further his own personal aims. In DJ he decides to take Jaina as his apprentice. And, he doesn't exactly disuade her from using the Dark Side in her plan to defeat the Vong. To me, the Dark Side is something that Kyp must deal with every day, just like Luke has dealt with it, and Jaina will have to in the future.

 

While i see your point......the force isn't a church or formal religon...it doesn't follow these rules of repentance......simply because vader didn't follow the steps layed out by a religious doctirne doesn't mean he didn't return from the dark side...

 

Kimball...
"I, personally, don't believe that Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader truley repented in RotJ, because it is not something that you can do in an instant. I believe that he began that process, but died before completing it."

I would suggest that there is no "right" repentance duration that fits all people for all circumstances. You cannot say that it is written in stone that it takes XXX years of repenting before repentance is complete. That it's like "10 hours repentance per murder," "2 hours repentance per negligent or accidental death." Things don't work like that IMO.

Repentance is something some people can do in an "instant," and others must take a lifetime to achieve. Note, I will not quantify how much time an "instant" is - whether it's 1 standard second, or some larger or smaller value. An "instant" in Ood B'nar's opinion may very greatly with an instant in Anakin's opinion.

If by "not instantaneous," for example one quantifies it taking 10 years, do you not think there are people who can do it in 9 years 9 months and a feteweek. No one is the same, and no one deals with the same events in the same way.

If such is a possibility, then the logical extremes are possible as well.

Another point to consider is the "behind-the-scenes" editing taking place. The original plan for Anakin's redemption began in ESB when he approached his son to rule the galaxy. This was not the dark, insidious plan as alluded to in the final version. This was something out of traditional samurai mythology. They lord as father and son - being able to accomplish great things. That was the beginnings of Anakin's redemption through and with his son. Whether there was any of that left in the final version of ESB is open to interpretation, but at least the thought-processes are there.

And, I'm with JMA - in our world we have no absolute proof of repentance. In Star Wars we do. I think the fact that Anakin was good enough for the Force needs to be good enough for us. If it's not, then the whole being of the Star Wars movies as an absolute morality tale tends to break down.

 

Genghis,

I would suggest that there is no "right" repentance duration that fits all people for all circumstances. You cannot say that it is written in stone that it takes XXX years of repenting before repentance is complete. That it's like "10 hours repentance per murder," "2 hours repentance per negligent or accidental death." Things don't work like that IMO.

Agreed. The comment that KK had made regarding Luke not repenting until Vision is merely Zahn's incorrect view point funneled through Mara's incorrect observations or understanding of the Force. And once again we have Zahn screwing his ideas into the Force in order to direct it as he sees fit.

Establishing any sort of time frame into repenting doesn't make sense to me since all people are different. What is enough for one is not enough for another.

Repentance is something some people can do in an "instant," and others must take a lifetime to achieve. Note, I will not quantify how much time an "instant" is - whether it's 1 standard second, or some larger or smaller value. An "instant" in Ood B'nar's opinion may very greatly with an instant in Anakin's opinion.

Darth Vader watching his son fried by the most evil guy in the galaxy was enough to push him towards the light and realize that he still had feelings for his son, and in the end, redeemed him to the point where he slew the Emperor.

If by "not instantaneous," for example one quantifies it taking 10 years, do you not think there are people who can do it in 9 years 9 months and a feteweek. No one is the same, and no one deals with the same events in the same way.

As I said above.

If such is a possibility, then the logical extremes are possible as well.

Sure, people progress at different rates.

And, I'm with JMA - in our world we have no absolute proof of repentance. In Star Wars we do.

I am actually a huge fan of redemption- regardless of genre. Which is why I like stories that deal with it.

I think the fact that Anakin was good enough for the Force needs to be good enough for us. If it's not, then the whole being of the Star Wars movies as an absolute morality tale tends to break down.

Sure, because redemption is a classic plot device.

 

Viewed through a Christian context Vader's apparent instant redemption with no process of atonement at all is problematic.

One way of dealing with the problem is to turn to Aristotle. Aristotle proposed that, as individuals, we should aim to achieve eudaimonia, loosely translated, it means the good life or happiness. This was qualified in terms of whealth, accomplishments, children and friends. A person who lived their life without friends could be said to have missed out an important part of the good life as it were.

One point made is that the question of whether a person achieved eudaimonia, may not depend upon the accomplishment of their life alone. If a person had children, their subsequent conduct and accomplishments will reflect upon their parent, to the good and to the bad.

Thus, while Anakin made no atonement in ROTJ, he later did so in TAB and I maintain in BP to aid Jacen, he did save Luke's life. In doing so, he freed his son to save countless millions through the works that Luke went on to do. In so doing Luke's success reflects favourably upon Anakin Skywalker's choice on the Death Star and could form a basis for his redemption.

Certainly this how I resolve the problem KK outlines. One thing, I am not especially good on Aristotle, therefore any who wish to debate his ideas in copious detail will draw my interest but not my involvement. My understanding of said philosopher is limited.

Jedi Ben

p.s. KK, what does LDS mean?

 

Ladder Day Saints, I belive its a christian sect.

 

LDS = Latter Day Saints = Church
Religion = Mormon

 

Goodness, just when I think i know something, Im corrected...

 

Thats okay, 'Dude, it's how we learn.



Anyway, I agree with the consensus that Vader's redemption may have begun as early as ESB. Confronting Luke triggered this, and who knows how many internal battles he fought before he died, battles in his heart and mind, conflicting emotions tearing him apart. Its too bad we never really got a really in depth view inside Vader's heart of darkness in the films, but hopefully this error will be fixed in AotC and E3.

 

Chissdude...
We posted at the same time.

(Heaven forbid if I seemed to "correct" you on this, someone may take it to mean I was trying to correct you about the "christian sect" part of it. And I suppose I should note that technically, the full name of the church is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Before the discussion moves to religion, there's a discussion on Mormonism here in the Senate Floor.)

 

A few responses:

First, (so that everyone understands the definitions I am using) repentance means the act of repenting. To repent means "to turn from sin and dedicate oneself to the amendment of one's life" (from www.m-w.com). I am using the definition of sin that states "an action that is or is felt to be highly reprehensible". Also, please remember that my perspective comes from having served as a missionary for two years, helping people with this very subject on a daily basis.

Genghis:
I would suggest that there is no "right" repentance duration that fits all people for all circumstances. I agree. However, like I said in my first post, it is a process. If fact, it is an ongoing process. No one except that one person will ever really know if it has been completed. However, the more serious a person's actions were, the more difficult it is to repent, to permanently turn away from them. Like I stated earlier, I don't believe that Anakin Skywalker finished his repentance before he died, as is shown by TaB. I, personally, am of the opinion that this ongoing repentance process is part of what Yoda was referring to when he said that "once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny."

Kier: If you look at what I said, it was not just based off of Zahn's writings. You could even say that it is still affecting him in the NJO. Whether you claim Zahn's interpretation is correct or not, Luke admitted that he could see some of those effects himself. I was not just basing it off of Mara's comments.

And yes, redemption is a common theme in literature. However, there are still effects from the time spent of the Dark Side. While I agree that repentance takes a different amount of time for each person, I cannot imagine a person "strong enough" to be able to do something like murder another person and be able to come back to the light quickly.

That is because repentance strike the middle ground between mercy and justice. Through repentance you receive mercy, in the form of being freed from the results of your actions, while also receiving justice, in the form of paying a price through your sorrow and restitution.

I, too, enjoy the theme of redemption, but to have mercy robbing justice leaves a person unfulfilled as they read the story. Also, to have justice robbing mercy also leaves a person unfulfilled. It is the balance given through repentance (or a similar process) that help provide a fulfilling story.

Jedi Ben: LDS stands for Latter-day Saint, or the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (aka Mormons). You can find more info on the name here.

Kimball Kinnison

 

This topic made me think of the Bible, specifically when Jesus is being crucified. One of the criminals who is being crucified asks for forgiveness and Jesus tells him that before the day is over they both will be in heaven. The criminal did not repent until the very day he died but he still went to heaven.

As far as Darth Vader is concerned could it not be that saving Luke from death was his way of correcting his errors/actions as much as possible? I think that Vader may have realized all the deaths he had on his hands and to allow one more murder, when he could stop it from happening, was unthinkable to him.

Lordmaul13

 

Kimball...
I disagree regarding Anakin Skywalker and his lack of resolution regarding his repentance. Using the benchmarks you laid out in your initial post:

First, they must recognize that they have done wrong.

Second, they must feel sorrow for their actions.

Third, they should ask those they have wronged to forgive them.

Fourth, they should correct their errors/actions as much as possible (a little hard in the case of killing someone).

Finally, they must never repeat the same offense.

Okay, now let's look at Vader's words:

"Do not fear me..."
"Leia...do not fear me. I am forgiven, but I have much I wish to atone for."
"I am no longer the man you feared."
"I strengthened the Alliance, although that was not my intent."
"There is no justifying my actions. Yet, your brother saved me from darkness. You must believe me."

Okay, how do they stack up...
1. First, they must recognize they have done wrong - "There is no justifying my actions." A clear statement of responsibility and acknowledgement of what he has done.
2. Second, they must feel sorrow for their actions. - "I am forgiven, but I have much I wish to atone for." Clearly Anakin felt guilt for what he did as Vader.
3. Third, they should ask those they have wronged to forgive them - Alright, possible questionable item. It should be noted that Luke, Leia and Han in particular were all breaking "man's laws" and as the executer of the Emperor's will, Vader was bound to uphold those laws. So, Leia's accusations of torturing Han are misplaced. Han knew full-well what could happen to him as a rebel and a terrorist if he was ever caught by the Empire. Also, Leia's trauma from Alderaan has caused her to hold Vader responsible for Tarkin's actions in that matter. Both points are issues all their own, though, I suppose. However, the bulk of those Anakin personally wronged - the Jedi whom he hunted down - are all dead. So, this point may be moot anyway. And a final point, one cannot separate TaB from Anakin's final words to Luke, which were a confirmation of Luke's faith in his father:

"You were right about me...Tell your sister...you were right."

Anakin Skywalker wanted to make sure both Luke and Leia knew that Anakin was indeed good. The clear rationale for this, of course was to seek their forgiveness.
4. Fourth, they should correct their errors/actions as much as possible (a little hard in the case of killing someone) - Killing the Emperor and saving the final Jedi allowing said Jedi to go forward and restore the order which Anakin destroyed. In short, one pretty big correction going on there.
5. Finally, they must never repeat the same offense - Passes with flying colors. Anakin never killed, tortured or destroyed anything after he repented. True, Anakin didn't do much of anything outside of dying after he repented, but it's true nonetheless.

So, I'd say that Anakin Skywalker would tend to easily pass the "repentance test" as you submitted here in this thread. While I do admit that (3) is the most interesting and possibly may generate the most discussion, there is one thing to consider. "I am forgiven." Pretty absolute, general, open-ended statement there. He doesn't have to seek forgiveness if he is forgiven.

Interesting enough is that one cannot ignore Marvel #92 when taking Anakin's redemption into account. It specifically focuses on Anakin's guilt and responsibility for crowning the next Dark Lord, Flint. Taking place after ROTJ, Anakin confronts Luke:

"Do you not recognize him? We share the blame for his creation, my son."
"He is not beyond redemption, my son...but I am unable to return and undo the evil I did."

Anakin accepts the role he played in mentoring the lad whom Luke cast away in the ways of evil. In addition, this also certainly fulfills correcting the error he (they both) made. By doing so, Anakin is actually helping Luke also repent. Because by using Luke to save Flint, A

 

Genghis,

If you look back at my last post, I stated that I don't believe that he completed his repentance process before he died. His actions in TaB would seem to confirm that, as would any other actions of his as a spirit post-RotJ. Just the act of killing the Emperor was not sufficient to atone for and correct his actions while he was following the Dark Side (although they were a rather large step in the right direction). With his post-RotJ actions, he has at least continued (if not finished) the process. Since we haven't heard much else from him we'll probably never know.

Also, I disagree with the wording of that quote from TaB. If he has been forgiven for all his acts, what would he still need to atone for? It makes no sense, unless he is referring only to some of his actions, not all of them. To me, it is a seeming contradiction to claim complete forgiveness and the need to atone for (or correct/pay the price for) his acts. Although, I am assuming that the Marvel quote is from after TaB (feel free to correct me on that since I have not read it).

Although, setting Anakin aside, what do you think of Kyp's repentance process with respect to Dark Journey? Do you agree with my comments that he is only starting the process, or do you think that he has completed it? Or is he somewhere in the middle still?

Kimball Kinnison

 

It might be quite simply that Anakin Skywalker does not feel deserving of the forgiveness he has been granted, hence his acts of atonement.

Further, I recently propsed the theory (forget where) that Jacen will have a decisive impact, possibly beyond that of his sublings, given what is being heard regarding future NJO books. This in turn renders it more likely that the intervention of the voice in BP was Anakin. That he knew the role Jacen was destined to play and knew he could not be allowed to falter, thus he intervenes to atone.

I know, not proven and pure speculation, but it would be smart.

We will not get Vader's point of view at ESB and ROTJ fro the Prequels unfortunately, we'll know his acts at age 25-30 or so and his perception of the world but we'll have to guess at his motivation twenty years later.

Jedi Ben

 

UP!

I would like to look at this topic relating to more than just Anakin. Again, does anyone agree with me about Kyp? Especially in light of the events in DJ. I, personally, believe that he is finally starting to repent for his previous actions (dating all the way back to JAT).

Kimball Kinnison