Discussion in 'Star Wars TV' started by Legolas Skywalker, Nov 19, 2012.
Shouldn't that be the Alliance to Restore the Republic if you're going for the good guys?
@Dan_Grievous_Tikkes_Fan It should
@KenobiSkywalker Pish Posh
But it doesn't...
No that is not it. Tarkin was just as principle of a villain as Vader was in ANH. The stormtroopers are just foot soldiers, but they are iconic like Darth Vader or R2 are. Anyone that hasn't been living under a rock would immediately recognize stormtroopers as a Star Wars thing. Same with Jabba. And this just raises the point that quantity =/= quality. Vader and Sidious were all that was needed to tell the story. And Tarkin, Vader and Sidious as the principle Imperial villains carry more weight than any CIS villain.
Most villains except for Imperial officers are visually striking. And even when it came to Tarkin, they cast someone with a very distinct facial structure.
Jabba, Maul, Vader, Palpatine, Boba Fett, Stormtroopers, the other bounty hunters... All are bizarre/cool have a very distinct look.
Dooku is just some old dude. And I understand the "oh, but you weren't supposed to immediately know he was a villain" excuse, but two things: it is immediately obvious that he is a villain from the moment he opens his mouth in his very first scene when he is hanging out with Gunray discussing the assassination attempt on Padme; and with Palpatine and Vader, when they are revealed to be bad guys, it is accompanied by a monstrous physical transformation as well. With Dooku, he's just an old guy...
Then as far as the movies go, he gets the commerce guilds to sign a treaty, flees a battle, has a lightsaber fight, meets Sidious at the Hall of Doom and reveals "I'm evil, nyuk, nyuk, nyuk. Evil plans. Something Sinister." Then he shows up at the beginning of the next movie just to die. Then in TCW he is just Sidious 2.0.
Grievous is another prominent CIS villain, and really serves no purpose other than to fill the need of a lightsaber wielding villain and to serve as an excuse to split Anakin and Obi-Wan up, when they could have just used what they had and used Dooku for that purpose. He would serve the CIS better if he were sold as scrap metal for a few credits to put toward a new cruiser.
Beyond those two the CIS consists of cowardly and greedy corporate types and villains of the week.
I see no comparison that can be made with the villains of the OT. It's a completely different league.
It's sad, but the TCW team worsened things by robbing the CIS of Asajj. And that they had to resort to resurrecting Maul to bring a villain with some character into the show, which is ironic since he previously had none. And yet he is not even associated with the CIS, which is another kick in the nuts.
And then there's the whole thing of the CIS being set up to be a straw man enemy for Palpatine...
Grievous is ruined in TCW... and you know it. He was much more important in the past.
Different league?! The OT villains are just two.... don't make me laugh.
You know that the only real villains in Episodes IV, V and VI are Vader and Sidious. And Tarkin.
Let me debunk you quite easy with a examples of CIS greatness.
Greed.... Even if the CIS leaders and villains are greedy and not cowards cause who wants to get captured and sent to prison. Nobody wants to be captured and be a prisoner... by the same logic, most Imperials are cowards as well.
But the CIS is better and there is always room for comparison. The CIS may be focused on greed, but greed is a very natural and real thing we have all dealth with. The Imperials act like mindless droids and there is no real development behind any of them.
Sure, Gunray may be greedy and runs away a lot, but we get his motivations. Empire characters are also one-trick ponies. Piett is a stupid "yes-man" to Vader and Tarkin is on the same level as Tamson - evil for being evil.
You heard me - Riff Tamson has as much development as Tarkin and vice versa.
Cowards?! Ha... you do know that since the show is biased and the CIS forces are usually overwhelmed, the only option for a commander is to retreat. That does not make him a coward, but he retreats so he could fight another day.
Poggle the Lesser is an example of a brave CIS leader who has values and plans for future. The guy was not a coward at all. He went and faced face to face Jedi, he stopped Luminara and stood up to Anakin - Poggle is everything, but a coward.
Wat Tambor was not a coward, sure he was stubborn... but in the end he without fear accepted his fate and was ready to die for the glory of the CIS - not a coward.
Admiral Trench - the Khan of TCW that never stopped coming at his enemies.
Osi Sobeck - a mad warden that when he learned where the escapees are, he right away rushed into battle. He was surely not a coward. He was mad, but not a coward.
Villains of the Week?!
By that people usually refer to characters that appear for once an episode of a show and have little development.
Going to be Riff Tamson or let us take Osi Sobeck, they are nothing like a villain of the week. When you spend more than an episode on a villain who has a lot of screen time, sometimes the screen time of these baddies rivals that of the villains in the movies. They have the same screen time and are as developed as bad guys as Jabba or Tarkin in the movies.
That makes them more than villains of the week.
That makes them the main villains in their own episodic "movies".
So excuse me, but your points
@TaradosGon has not much ground to stand on.
I have given you many examples of how your statement is wrong. The CIS villains are better than the Imperial villains...
The Republic........Nuff said
The CIS nuff said..
PS: I can do that too...
I re-assert my neutrality.
Not a bad stand although stuff just as bad seems to happen to systems staying neutral. Apparently Maul will invade you or your king will get replaced or you'll get caught between the two sized and bulldozed in the process.
The Clones kick Separatists butt
Elbow to the face! High fives for Fives!
And the droids grab the clones for the necks and shoot them in the chest. BOOY YAH!
And then the Umbarans vaporize most of the 501st...
So Vady, here you go a nice comeback for your usual ""Republic "put verb for winning"" posts.
Clone pwnd! Next!
We need some droid action like that in the series.
The Commando Droid action has been pretty good though.
And yet the Umbara's still seemed to lose that battle...
Nyah, not really...
The show is biased towards the good guys, even if they can not win, they will still win.
With what they had, the Umbarans in reality would have crushed every single clone spine - that was some impressive tech.
Why do you think Anakin got pulled out?! Cause Palpatine knew that anything that went into the Umbaran darkness was coming back in a bodybag.
Cross-posted from general thread, relating to CIS villains (bolded here):
Part of why I like the CIS is that it isn't a Nazi photocopy like so many fictional antagonist factions, including SW's very own Galactic Empire and various Sith states. It more closely resembles the European trade empires that ruled the waves between the 15th and 20th centuries, with the capitalist oligarchs completely running the show in an ostensibly democratic state. It's hard not to think of the British Empire, the Dutch Empire, the U.S. interventions in Latin America and other historical phenomena when imagining how the CIS could be portrayed in a Clone Wars work.
The portrayal of the Separatists should be rather less cliched than the same old fictional goosesteppers, though TCW has a mixed record when it comes to actually portraying this in the actual episodes. As an utopian democracy with an enormously powerful cabal of business elites pulling the strings (referring to the CIS in isolation of the Sith hierarchy), there should be an array of characters, concepts and stories featuring the whole spectrum of Separatists in relation to a similarly diverse array of Loyalists. TCW has done a decent job on occasion (eg. Mina Bonteri, Kersh Kuchi, Voe Atell and the Separatist legislature in Heroes On Both Sides; Wat Tambor's asset-stripping of Ryloth in S1) but it has all too often fallen back on the Sith hierarchy and the requisite CIS Commander of the Week whenever an antagonist is needed.
This isn't another call for a "Good Separatists vs. Evil Loyalists" story. This is more specifically a remark about the lack of actual Separatists - good, evil and grey - as opposed to the recurring hierarchy of Dooku, Grievous, tactical droids, STDs and one-off organic minions.
Great points... especially about Gunray! Gosh, I miss him in this show. They are wasting out times with Kalani-s and Savages, Gunray should be spotlighted once more...
The problem, dear QuangoFett, is that Lucas is either not focusing at all on the CIS or on what he focused he turns into a copy of the Empire. Dooku has been turned from a diplomatic Separatist head of state to a barbarian that rivals Vader in his savage exploits.
The lack of people like Gunray and Tikkes and Tambor is stripping the CIS from it's key component - the Council that started it all.
Not having people like Alto Stratus, the show is making the entire CIS as a one-note instrument like the Empire is in the movies. The CIS actually had not only liberal senators that were against the Republic, but commanders of systems that were sick of the Republic's backstabbing and hypocracy - and they were not just evil for the sake of evil. They were the Saw-s of the CIS - people that believe that the CIS is the side to be on not just for profit.
The whole NO CIS LEADERS thing started with the end of S2, cause in Supply lines and Sphere of Influence Lucas had the chance to bring both Gunray and Tambor back for cameos. By that he could have shown them again and made them more of a recurring threat and not just characters that are gone now. Not dead, but just as badly missing.
Great point about some old faces having the potential to be turned into recurring threats through appearances in the S3 episodes. Tambor at least was the guy actually invading Ryloth and forcing Ima-Gun-Di into a corner. I loved the appearance of the lower-tier TF and IGBC officials like Sib Canay and Nix Card in those episodes, but the absence of their more prominent CIS counterparts is felt in the later few seasons.
Yes, it's troubling that TCW's writers sometimes only portray the CIS as a Galactic Empire that existed a few years earlier. Sure, the episodes which paint a much more distinctive picture of the CIS are still part of TCW, but the effect of only showing the standard cartoon bad guy squad of Dooku, Grievous and one-off commanders in the more recent seasons is indeed a cheapening of the CIS into yet another Nazi expy.
It's unfortunate that they cancelled most of the political episodes after S3, since these would have had a greater likelihood of showing the CIS as it was meant to be. I like an action-packed episode as much as the next guy, but damn they can be all kinds of shallow and banal by contrast. Dac and Shadow Warrior were the epitome of shallowness and banality. Onderon was a much milder example of this but it was a particular letdown because its plot should have depended on depth considering the involvement of the Bonteris.
TCW needs more politics. Much more.
I like Separatists.
i bet Krell tricked Anakin into thinking that Palps wanted him back on Coruscant
I always wondered what that was about since it never got explained, thanks for offering a possible explanation.
Filoni - in one of the ForceCasts - shot down that theory that Palpatine was trying to save Anakin and asserts that Palpatine is not holding Anakin's hand throughout the war, and that should Anakin die, then he's not worthy to be Palpatine's apprentice. I think Filoni also I *think* he suggested that Palpatine switched Anakin with Krell because he wanted to test Krell.