Clone Wars Retcons and fitting in TCW into the broader EU

Discussion in 'Star Wars TV' started by General Immodet, Mar 23, 2013.

  1. General Immodet Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 5, 2012
    star 4
    I know we already have a couple of threads about the inconsistencies between TCW and the EU.
    But as far as I know, we do not have a thread about "correcting TCW".
    What if you were a SW author and you were forced to make TCW fit into the broader EU.
    Any ideas? Thoughts!

    For example:
    -) Spar joined Pre Vizla's faction during the Clone Wars. When Vizla was killed and Maul disappeared, Sidious orchestrated Spar's rise to power. Spar was manipulated into attacking Republic targets.
    -) Even Piell's name was a common name. A bit like Rasi Tuum appeared twice in Legacy.
    -) During the Clone Wars, the armor of Clone Troopers was gradually changed. That is why in some episodes, comics and novels, the clones have a phase 1 armor and in some episodes, comics and novels the clones have phase 2 armor.
    -) Most of the episodes of TCW takes place in between Republic 71 and Obsession.
    In Obsession, Ventress was captured by Dooku's forces and suffered some memory loss.
    -) ...
  2. Garrett Atkins Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 11, 2013
    star 4
    Retcon: The Clone Wars is Non-Canon.
  3. Gallandro Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 8, 1998
    star 4
    I've got a better idea... all EU is non-canon.


    Yancy
  4. Mia Mesharad Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 4
    Spar doesn't need to join Death Watch. In fact, it's former Death Watch members who join him in establishing the Mandalorian Protectors. Spar also needs no manipulating to fight the Republic, he and his simply support the "Independent" aspect of the Confederacy of Independent Systems. It's actually not all that hard to reconcile this particular plot with TCW's work, now that Jason Fry's put the series and its take on Mandalore/Mandalorians in its place as a part of the larger whole rather than all there is. Come to think of it, I suppose Fry's really already taken on this particular challenge in an official capacity.

    If I'm not mistaken, both of these points are actually canon.
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  5. KED12345 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 10, 2012
    star 4
    Oohh, a controversial thread.

    To be honest, here's how I view it:
    Attack of the Clones
    Clone Wars Vol. I
    The Clone Wars Season 1-5
    Labyrinth of Evil
    Revenge of the Sith
  6. Garrett Atkins Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 11, 2013
    star 4
    I view it:
    Attack of the Clones
    Clone Wars Volume 1
    Shatterpoint
    The Cestus Deception
    MedStar Duology
    Yoda: Dark Rendezvous
    Jedi Trial
    Various Video Games and Comics throughout
    Labyrinth of Evil
    Revenge of the Sith
    That is a pretty solid story to the war, without all the awful TCW episodes.
  7. Esg Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 4
    [IMG]
  8. Jedi Master Chuck Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 2013
    star 1
    Two separate continuities.

    One with TCW, the sequel trilogy, and Gendy's series. A second with the EU material during the PT and all post-RotJ EU.
  9. GGrievous Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2005
    star 5
    Really? Then I guess you better change your username and icon.
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  10. kubricklynch Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 10, 2012
    star 3
    If we're "correcting" TCW can't we just say Even Piell never died? No ridiculous retcon necessary.
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  11. GGrievous Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2005
    star 5
    Filoni :...And Even Piell died in Ahsoka's arms.

    Disney:
    Last edited by GGrievous, Mar 23, 2013
  12. TaradosGon SWTV Mod - Like Palpatine with animals

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    He whispered in Ahsoka's ear his super-secret mission and how he didn't trust Tarkin. So Ahsoka wraps some rocks and debris in a cloth, shapes it to look roughly like Even, and then drops it in the sulfur river. Meanwhile Even, having faked his death, flees back to Coruscant in secret, his survival being unknown to Tarkin. Even is then able to coordinate with the Council without drawing suspicion from commissioned officers. Anakin is kept in the dark for plausible deniability.

    Or it was really a Changeling Jedi posing as Even :-B
    Last edited by TaradosGon, Mar 23, 2013
  13. Gallandro Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 8, 1998
    star 4
    Not even, but nice try. I can appreciate a Star Wars novel or comic series for what it is, a piece of licensed entertainment which may or may not be contradicted by the original creator or subsequent creators of official materials later on. This is not a difficult concept to grasp here.Star Wars, like Star Trek licenses hundreds of materials which are simply not canon. They are fun and keep the reader engaged in the universe, but ultimately have no bearing on the overarching story a movies/series creator is developing.

    Episode I-VI (and soon to be I-IX) - canon
    The Clone Wars - canon

    Oh and yes I realize based on Lucasfilm's policy the films and only the films are G-Level canon. The Clone Wars falls under T-canon, but given Lucas' involvement in developing many of the stories and story arcs the show runs a blurry line between T-canon and G-canon.

    Other offshoots like the Ewok movies, Droids or Ewoks cartoons and the Clone Wars microseries may have elements which are considered canon, but ultimately that's a Lucasfilm decision... not mine.

    Comics, books, RPG, video games - again not canon (unless indicated by Lucasfilm)

    So as much as I love the Brian Daley novels and Gallandro the gunslinger/bounty hunter, he's no a "canon" character.


    Yancy
    Last edited by Gallandro, Mar 23, 2013
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  14. GGrievous Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2005
    star 5
    I love how you ignore everything but desperately love TCW. :p How respectful of you.

    It's all canon man, unless otherwise stated.
    Last edited by GGrievous, Mar 23, 2013
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  15. Kualan Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 4, 2008
    star 4
    Anakin wakes from a coma halfway through the war to be told that he suffered a head injury at the Battle of Christophsis, and that the only Ahsoka Tano ever to be in the Jedi Order died on the same planet five thousand years ago. Five thousands years that very night...
  16. Gallandro Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 8, 1998
    star 4
    You're aware Lucasfilm would disagree, right?

    In 2000, Lucas Licensing appointed Leland Chee to create a continuity tracking database referred to as the "Holocron".[4] As with every other aspect having to do with the overall story of Star Wars, the Holocron follows the canon policy that has been in effect for years.
    The Holocron is divided into five levels (in order of precedence): G-canon, T-canon, C-canon, S-canon, and N-canon.
    G-canon is absolute canon; the movies (their most recent release), the scripts, the novelizations of the movies, the radio plays, and any statements by George Lucas himself. G-canon overrides the lower levels of canon when there is a contradiction. Within G-canon, many fans follow an unofficial progression of canonicity where the movies are the highest canon, followed by the scripts, the novelizations, and then the radio plays.
    T-canon[5] refers to the canon level comprising only the two television shows: Star Wars: The Clone Wars and the upcoming Star Wars live-action TV series. Its precedence over C-Level canon was confirmed by Chee.[6]
    C-canon is primarily composed of elements from the Expanded Universe including books, comics, and games bearing the label of Star Wars. Games and RPG sourcebooks are a special case; the stories and general background information are themselves fully C-canon, but the other elements such as character/item statistics and gameplay are, with few exceptions, N-canon.
    S-canon is secondary canon; the story itself is considered non-continuity, but the non-contradicting elements are still a canon part of the Star Wars universe. This includes things like the online roleplaying game Star Wars: Galaxies and certain elements of a few N-canon stories.
    N-canon is non-canon. "What-if" stories (such as stories published under the Star Wars: Infinities label), crossover appearances (such as the Star Wars character appearances in Soulcalibur IV), game statistics, and anything else directly contradicted by higher canon ends up here. N-canon is the only level that is not considered official canon by Lucasfilm. A significant amount of material that was previously C-canon was rendered N-canon by the release of Episodes I–III.

    Not to hard to track that... G-canon takes precedence over everything including T-canon, T-canon takes precedence over C-canon (where most EU resides). Pretty straightforward.

    Yancy
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  17. GGrievous Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2005
    star 5
    How is it that you're misunderstanding me? Canon refers to all of the above (minus N), including G, T, and C. All one timeline.

    They would actually disagree with you. ;)
    Last edited by GGrievous, Mar 23, 2013
  18. Kualan Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 4, 2008
    star 4
    That tier-system is designed to resolve canon conflicts, not to exist as different "canon timelines". T-, C-, and S-canons all exist in the same narrative universe as G-canon.
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  19. Jedi Master Chuck Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 2013
    star 1
    I think with the Sequel Trilogy on the way they should actually separate the timelines if they want to save the New Jedi Order, Fate of the Jedi, etc. series. They could continue that timeline as a separate universe, but it will be a lot harder to retcon the current novel series with the movies.
  20. Kualan Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 4, 2008
    star 4
    I'm not opposed to this depending on where they want to take the Sequels, but I wouldn't want it to be "in-universe" like they did with Star Trek, and have time travel and stuff like that involved in it. Just say to the fans "The books are one timeline, the movies another, enjoy both".
    Last edited by Kualan, Mar 23, 2013
  21. Gallandro Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 8, 1998
    star 4
    Which was my point, for example, contrary what some in another thread in this forum would have people believe, the death of Even Piell is not a violation of "canon." T-canon simply takes precedence over C-canon, so according to Lucasfilm Master Piell died escaping the Citadel. There's no "retconning" required...,

    Look EU fans better prepare that post ROTJ novel/comic canon is going to be obliterated with the release of Episode VII.
    Last edited by Gallandro, Mar 23, 2013
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  22. Jedi Master Chuck Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 2013
    star 1
    Oh most definitely not. I just want Lucasfilm to clearly break down the two timelines.


    So, definitely no time travel / in universe mentions of the other, just two completely different versions of the story. I'm not sure if you're familiar with the series, but it would be similar to the Fullmetal Alchemist Manga and second anime series compared to the original anime. The two stories were the same up until about the fifth volume of the manga, at which point the first anime caught up to the manga. They then went on to write a completely different story. The main villain for the two series is completely different and they have completely different endings.

    From another thread, this would be my proposed plan:

    "What I would propose is two separate universes...two separate tellings of Star Wars


    Lucas Universe Continuity
    Star Wars Episodes I - III (The Prequel Trilogy)
    Star Wars Episodes IV - VI (The Original Trilogy)
    Star Wars Episodes VII - IX (The Sequel Trilogy)
    Star Wars: The Clone Wars
    Star Wars: Clone Wars (2003 Microseries)*
    Novels / comics / video games made post-Episode IX specifically designated as part of the Lucas continuity / canon
    Future spin-off movies, main features (should they make Episodes X and beyond), live action, and animated TV series
    *As of this point, nothing in TCW contradicts CW. The majority of the series takes place before Anakin becomes a Jedi Knight and reflects his relative immaturity. Ventress and Grievous appear for the first time, not completely out of the blue; The final episodes lead right into RotS and given the premature end of TCW, I don't think we'll see this happen in the 2008 series.


    Expanded Universe Continuity
    Star Wars Episodes I - III (The Prequel Trilogy)
    Star Wars Episodes IV - VI (The Original Trilogy)
    Existing novels / comics / video games (ie The Old Republic, Force Unleashed*, New Jedi Order, etc.)
    Future novels / comics / video games which continue the story of the current EU (stories which continue the story of Fate of the Jedi etc.)
    *The Force Unleashed is ambiguously canon given that it's a video game. While the story does address things and currently tie into the OT, I feel like this story could be worked into future Lucas continuity stories (such as a live action movie) which would better serve the purpose of telling the story as a whole now that there are more than just 6 movies.

    Infinities Universe Continuity
    What-If stories...like I personally would be very interested in a story about what would have happened had Anakin not turned to the Dark Side and The Clone Wars ended differently


    Non-Canon
    Robot Chicken
    Detours
    etc.


    I know that some people will take this as a slight against the EU, but I view it differently. I actually think this elevates the EU and eliminates the need for any future attempts to retcon existing stories with things done with future movies / TV series. It allows them to continue building the current EU even after Episodes VII - IX completely contradict the storylines of the NJO and Fate of the Jedi series. This would allow the Lucas universe to borrow characters and themes from the EU without contradicting that continuity / events of that universe and vice versa. The EU could bring in characters from VII - IX in a different role as the Lucas Universe could bring in Galen Marek, Thrawn, Mara Jade, etc. even if their role is not exactly the same.

    I honestly think this would be a really smart thing for Disney / Lucasfilm to address directly. They could put out an official continuity / canon book or something that breaks this down really clearly. Add a page on the main star wars site for the Expanded Universe under the headline "always in motion is the future, and many possible futures there are" ... make a main page and break down all the materials of the EU very clearly.

    This allows them to produce future comics / novels / video games in BOTH the EU and the LU. It basically doubles the profit...fans will feel like there are two completely different tales of Star Wars. Once they're hooked on one, they may jump into the other. It elevates the EU to a greater point than it is now...no longer is it second fiddle to The Clone Wars, but a whole separate continuity that can continue to build.


    It may be a big shift at first, but with the Sequel Trilogy, spin-off movies, future TV series, etc. coming down the line, I really believe this shift needs to come. It will allow Lucasfilm / Disney to promote the EU to a higher state than it is now. No more retcons. No more ambiguously canon scenes or discrepencies between TCW and the EU material we have now. In Lucas continuity, Barriss Offee is a dark Jedi, Even Piell dies at the Citadel, etc. In the EU, Barriss dies in Order 66 and Even Piell survives to the Dark Times.

    Fans will likely be more inclined to jump into the EU if they have a very clear breakdown of the materials / stories that are part of that continuity directly from Lucasfilm. As it stands now, knowing those materials could easily be rendered non-canon at the whims of Lucas, Filoni, etc. (I don't think this is wrong; they have a different idea from how the story is told and shouldn't be obligated to hold to all the stories told in the EU) certain people might hesitate to pick up EU novels, comics, or games. But if they went ahead and broke down the continuity more clearly, people could say "oh hey right on the main star Wars site, there's this page for the Expanded Universe. What's that? Oh wow there's all this other material telling a completely different story about Luke, Han, Leia, etc? " then jump right in....


    But we need a really concrete list at this point and the time for a split is here. I really think it elevates the EU and strengthens BOTH stories....plus it will generate MORE fan interest in the EU and allow authors more freedom to step away from constantly trying to go back and work past contradictions that arise as new materials are written for the Lucas Universe. With both stories ongoing, it's too hard for them to keep everything straight. One hand doesn't know what the other is doing essentially. They could produce novels / comics / etc. specifically commissioned as part of the Lucas Universe in the future but would have to explicitly designate them as such and keep a solid list directly on the main site for fans to easily access. With two thriving ongoing stories telling a very different series of events in the Star Wars universe built around the original trilogy, I really can't think of anything better for the fans and for the series new owners looking to turn the biggest possible profit."
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  23. Gallandro Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 8, 1998
    star 4
    All I care is that Episode VII does not conflict with "The Glove of Darth Vader!" I hope they drop a reference to Trioculus in the story, or maybe the main baddie could be a clone of Trioculus, that would be awesome!!!


    Yancy
  24. TaradosGon SWTV Mod - Like Palpatine with animals

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    If they're going to split the timeline, I'd rather they spin the EU into something more radically different from the films than what it is. Not just splitting it from the films over things like Barriss or Even Piell. I'd rather take the retcons than that.

    I really don't know how many movies they are going to make. There will be 7, 8 and 9 obviously. I don't know how many spinoffs they intend to do, and then they may continue with 10, 11, 12.

    But with other franchises like Spider-Man, Star Trek, or the Fantastic Four, all get so far before they see declining box office success, and then they reboot.

    That would be SOOOO incredibly weird to see Star Wars reboot. And I'm talking about the films here. I DON'T see the OT EVER being rebooted. The Star Wars universe as it exists in film will probably be left alone. So when it comes to Spider-Man, it gets worse, they get new directors, new cast, and reboot the sucker. Can't/won't do that with Star Wars. So they make a sequel trilogy, they make spinoffs, and if they begin to fail or audiences loose their enthusiasm for a new film "every 2-3 years" they might just stop with the films.

    Especially if they go the "Avengers route" as was rumored, then we could be looking at staying in the post-ROTJ era for over a decade with the films, and definitely so if they go with episode 10-12. They might not touch the Dark Times or pre-TPM in film (possibly television).

    Post-ROTJ EU seems the most threatened.

    PT-OT era I would think is fairly safe. Nothing new on the horizon to contradict it and who knows if the TV shows or films ever come back that way again.

    Pre-TPM era EU might possibly run into trouble, but it still might be years off, if ever, before the films or TV shows touch that period.

    I don't know that Disney will be able to sustain interest in Star Wars indefinitely as movies, and in the absence of the option to reboot (but you never know) the time might come when it once again just lives as TV/comics/novels/games.

    I give more wiggle room for the films to do their own thing. But the television show should never have been given its own canon level IMO and should sit evenly with the comics and novels with scripts being overlooked by someone like Leland Chee, if not Chee himself, to moderate continuity.
    Last edited by TaradosGon, Mar 23, 2013
  25. Kualan Force Ghost

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    Dec 4, 2008
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    Throw in a kid named Ken and you've got an award-winning trilogy.
    Last edited by Kualan, Mar 23, 2013
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