Clone Wars Retcons and fitting in TCW into the broader EU

Discussion in 'Star Wars TV' started by General Immodet, Mar 23, 2013.

  1. Yodaminch Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 6, 2002
    star 5
    Evan Piell died during the citadel mission.

    Even Piell was Jax Pavan's master and died post Order 66. He was a cousin/nephew/uncle ala Plo and Sha Koon.

    Adi Gallia survived Boz Pity. It's not as if other jedi haven't survived a saber to the gut (Kyle vs. Jacen). Then sure Savage killed her. Although, to be fair, at any point in Revival is she ever called Adi by name? Perhaps Adi had 2 cousins. Stass Allie and Imaget Impaled?

    Barriss Offee was captured on Geonosis during Attack of the Clones and was the first jedi cloned. As a result of this rushed cloning process, she suffered a permanant diminuative stature, being roughly 2 feet shorter than the real Barriss, but Luminara had other things to worry about. Eventually, the process caught up with her and she went mad. Meanwhile, during the second assault on Geonosis, the real Barriss was awakened from a hypernation sleep and snuck away. She later returned to the order with the help of let's say...Oppo Rancisis who was on a top secret mission during the entirety of the show for some reason. :p
  2. Jedi Master Chuck Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 2013
    star 1
    Well I think that's where the "Infinities Continuity" would come in....it would leave room for other more radical departures from established timelines. I'm splitting it into EU / LU because it allows the continuation of the current novels / EU series without abandoning those fans or leaving those authors to try and somehow reconcile a completely different set of events with the ST (given Lucas comments I think there's a strong chance we'll see Chewbacca alive and well, no Solo twins, Luke unmaired, and a very different state of affairs without mention of the Yuuzhan Vong or Abeloth).


    I do agree that they won't reboot. I just think they should reconsider the idea of doing films every 2 - 3 years. They should work in there a few 10 year gaps. I'm not so sure the PT would have been so successful if Lucas had made Star Wars movies in 1986, 1989, 1992, and 1995.


    It's true they can't sustain interest indefinitely if they insist on movies being released every 2 - 3 years. The only way is to make it one bigger and bigger story. In the interim between movies (say 5 - 10 years downtime between trilogies), they build the saga through TV series.


    I don't really agree that TV series should be held at the same level as comics, novels, etc. The movies and TV series share a lot more in that they're both on screen and audiences who watch the movies are more likely to watch a TV series. You could make the comparison to the SHIELD TV series for the Marvel Cinematic Universe.
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  3. Narutakikun Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2012
    star 4
    OK, time for some more harsh reality.

    Of course Clone Wars ignored the EU. Why wouldn't it? The EU was made to be ignored. Look, Lucas never gave two rat's dumps what was in the EU. If he did, he would have exercised tighter control over it to make sure that it all remained within a defined continuity that would never be overridden, which is exactly what Disney will do. But as far as he was concerned, none of it was ever "real" Star Wars, so it didn't matter what was in it. He never felt bound by it, he never respected it, and the sad truth is that the only thing Lucas ever really cared about in relation to the EU was that the royalty checks cleared. On the other hand, for better or worse (frequently the latter), Lucas did care about The Clone Wars and did consider it "real" Star Wars. Listen to any interview with anybody involved in the series - several excellent ones are available in the archives of the Forcecast/Rebel Force Radio and Full of Sith - and that will become undeniably apparent.

    Anyhow, none of that matters from this point forward. Lucas might not have given two rat's dumps what was in the EU, but Disney doesn't even give one of them. I've said it before, but I'll say it again: First, the EU as we have all known it under Lucasfilm is done - finished, ended, stopped, terminated, over, halted, 86ed, dumped - it has joined John Cleese's parrot in the Choir Invisible. Second, if you think that Disney feels the tiniest bit bound by any EU that was ever produced under pre-buyout Lucasfilm, or obligated to make any Star Wars stories they create conform to it, you're living in a Magic Kingdom all your own. There will be - there are - no more levels of canon. That was a Lucasfilm thing. It is not a Disney thing. It is not how Disney ever has done or ever will do business. And now that Disney owns Star Wars, the Disney Way is the Star Wars Way, period. There are not now and will not in the future be any more levels of canon, nor any EU, there will just be the franchise. As part of the franchise, Disney will crank out plenty of tie-in novels and comics and games, and they will employ someone (who is very unlikely to be Leland Chee in any sort of long run) with the memory of Frederica Greenhill and the personality of Benito Mussolini whose job it will be to make sure that they all present a consistent, interlocking, cross-promoting, 360-degree-marketable package. That's the way it's going to be, whether you like it or not; so if you don't like it, you'd probably better take this opportunity to go find something else to be a fan of instead.

    Don't believe me? Just watch.
    Last edited by Narutakikun, Mar 23, 2013
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  4. Jedi Master Chuck Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 2013
    star 1
    I mean, I"m very disappointed with what Disney has done so far, but I have a feeling after the newness of the buyout wears out and the Sequel Trilogy is finished, their dictatorial reign over the franchise may loosen.

    Marvel is building a cinematic universe now, but they haven't yet forced the comics to cease publication and refocus / reboot their storylines to promote the movies.

    Disney would be wise to allow perhaps the most successful fictional franchise of all time to continue doing it's thing in some sense. If it isn't broken, then don't fix it after all.


    I have a feeling the novels / comics etc. will continue, but they're on the path to being completely thrown out as non-canon. Disney's not going to say no to a Star Wars novel that contradicts the movies because it will sell and they'll get royalty money. The only problem will be utter disregard for anything in those materials as even remotely canon.

    That's the reason I think they need to make the EU it's own thing. Authors can continue writing those stories and fans will continue buying them. Of course they can also make tie in EU novels etc. to the canon universe, but there's really no more reason to cease publication on current EU materials / stories than there would be to end all comics not related to the Marvel Cinematic Universe.
  5. kubricklynch Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 10, 2012
    star 3
    The idea of the EU being canon was sadly nothing more than a marketing gimmick. "Hey, buy this book, it really happened, we swear!"

    I've said this before in other threads, but you can't really have multiple levels of canon. Either something is canon or it can be contradicted. If a work is only canon subject it to not being ignored/altered in the future, then it really isn't canon.
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  6. Narutakikun Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2012
    star 4
    Comics really are and always have been kind of their own thing that operate under their own rules. Basically, comics in general never really gave a rat's dump about continuity, either. That's why they reset their continuity completely every few years and start over. But hardcore comics readers also have a different relationship to continuity than other fans do. I won't say that they don't care about continuity at all, but it more expresses itself in the idea of personalities and motivations of characters remaining consistent than in the idea of something that happened in a storyline being something that has to be taken into consideration. In other words, a comics fan would be more likely to say "I don't like Arrow because I think they got Oliver's personality totally wrong" than "I don't like Arrow because it completely contradicts the backstory given for Huntress in Green Arrow #54, published in October, 1969". That, for example, is why many of them really didn't like Superman Returns - not because it contradicted some storyline from a Superman comic of the distant past, but because having a baby momma and being an absentee father is just not something that Superman does.

    But it is broken. If it wasn't, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

    Besides, even if it wasn't, "broken" can still mean "doesn't conform to the Disney way of doing things". Corporate giants like to have consistent, predictable, proven strategies for doing things. Disney's got one. They're going to use it with Star Wars.

    But they won't. It's not the Disney Way. Disney sees low-quality tie-in properties as a liability - they've made that mistake in the past, cheapening their brands with crappy direct-to-DVD sequels and such, and that was just about the first thing John Lasseter put the kaibosh on when he got the chance to. Ever since then, Disney has been very careful about who they let create tie-ins and what's in them. I won't say they've never made a misstep (Planes, anybody?), but they're just that - occasional mistakes in executing what is generally a careful, well-thought-out, and tightly-controlled strategy.

    The situation is analogous in some ways to the Video Game Crash of 1983. Too much utter crap in the market ruins things for everybody, which means that just because you can churn out low-quality product to try to grab every last dollar you can from your customers, doesn't mean that doing so is good business. Fewer, better, more tightly-controlled products are the way to long-term success.
  7. Mia Mesharad Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 4
    It's interesting that you say that, and yet we've seen no hint of this "animosity" toward the EU from Disney whatsoever. In fact, in a recent survey they put out, Disney's people asked specifically: "How familiar are you with the Star Wars universe? By 'Star Wars universe,' we mean people, places and stories in the Star Wars movies, books and games." And for quite some time now, Disney's "Star Tours" attraction has featured a number of gratuitous EU references. While there are those that like to point the finger at Disney for shutting down 1313 when it seemed so promising, the truth in fact is that Lucas' own meddling ruined the game to the point that Disney didn't see them ever getting back up off the ground; LucasArts as a studio has been in a creative hole for quite some time, they practically destroyed themselves with piss-poor games, the latest of which was TFUII, a poor shadow of their days producing Jedi Outcast and Republic Commando.

    Though TCW has been axed, there's been no sign at all that Disney's acquisition of the franchise is going to harm Star Wars literature: Dark Horse just began a new run on Legacy, Brian Wood's Star Wars run is fully green-lighted, and both Dark Times and the latest Darth Vader series freely continue. The novels Kenobi, Crucible, Dawn of the Jedi, and an as-of-yet unnamed Leia-centric novel are all slated to come out this year, and Darth Maul: Lockdown, and the new Essential Guide to Characters are on the near horizon, as well as the unintentionally leaked news of Imperial Commando 2 by Matt Stover.

    So it seems as if the only EU with any confirmed place on the chopping block is, ironically enough, TCW itself.
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  8. Jedi Master Chuck Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 2013
    star 1
    So things like the newly started Brian Wood Star Wars comic series would end under this new direction? It seems a little unrealistic to me they would scrap everything and honestly doesn't seem like the smartest move.

    If they simply made the EU it's own continuity, the ongoing stories could finish, the same people who've been reading them for the past 20 - 30 years would continue doing so, and the general public would remain oblivious to their existence.


    If what you say is true of the way Disney operates, I really do question how long Star Wars and Marvel could remain successful under their ownership. Where the Avengers was tremendously successful, the novelty will wear off and eventually they'll make a "Godfather Part III" or a "Rocky V" and the series will have to go into a 10 year hiatus. The things that keep franchises alive between movies are things like novels, games, comics, etc.


    To scrap all that's out there and start fresh just seems like a radical move at this point with a franchise that has proven it's success.



    I do agree that it's broken in some sense. The current EU already contradicts TCW and likely will contradict VII - IX and beyond. The fix just seems a lot simpler than eliminating everything else. Declare them to be separate timelines and call it a day.


    Novels continuing the EU would be considered completely non-canon to anything Disney produces and they could have tight control over whatever tie-in materials they want for the Lucas "official" continuity.
  9. Narutakikun Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2012
    star 4
    You mean other than canning basically every major project Lucasfilm had going at the time of the buyout, including prominent EU properties like 1313?

    So they asked a question. And? That doesn't tell me what the answer will be, nor how much of a factor that answer will be in their decisions. You're grasping at straws.

    Irrelevant. Star Tours was created before the buyout. Totally different ballgame.

    Sure. And?

    Sure, and Season 6 of TCW was greenlighted - until it wasn't anymore. I'm sure there are a few remaining EU novels and comics that, like the "bonus" Season 6 TCW episodes, were far enough along in production that it wasn't worth canceling them, or for which contracts had been signed and money had been paid such that it would be more trouble than it was worth to get out of, but I wouldn't buy any long-term stock in any of that stuff. The EU is, as the saying in business goes, not a "going concern".
  10. Narutakikun Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2012
    star 4
    How long has Disney managed to keep people interested in a cartoon mouse they created in the 1920s?

    Ask Dave Filoni how "realistic" it is.

    And what, in the actions we've seen Disney undertake with LFL in the last few months, makes you think they're not up for some "radical moves"?

    From what I've seen, "Everything's canceled and you're all fired" seems to be something that's becoming rather a pattern in how Disney is handling those parts of Lucasfilm and those Star Wars stories that they don't see as "theirs" and that aren't being handled by their own handpicked people. I see no reason to believe that this trend will not continue, and every reason to believe that it will.

    Again, that's just not the way Disney does things. If that's what you want, then, well, that's what fanfiction.net is for.
    Last edited by Narutakikun, Mar 24, 2013
  11. Mia Mesharad Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 4
    You undermine your own argument when you point out 1313 as a major issue, only to dismiss the fact that it was Lucas who brought that down and not Disney, as seemingly irrelevant.

    Disney's own public relations seems quite open to the EU and receiving of fan opinions, and has made no move against any literary properties existing or planned. Contracts that could have been severed as they were with TCW are being honored, and unlike a "bonus" two story arcs from the show, there's a solid list of forthcoming material still on the books. You can say the sky is falling, but you have no factual basis for any such claim.
  12. Jedi Master Chuck Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 2013
    star 1
    I don't even read the EU beyond the first 3 or 4 NJO and Labyrinth of Evil and I love TCW, I guess I'm just not necessarily expecting this to happen even given the recent cancellations.


    I don't like their reasons for cancelling The Clone Wars. I don't agree with them on the fundamental principles and I think it was a tremendous disservice to both fans and the creators of the show. Creatively, it was a terrible decision. From a business perspective, it seems questionable at best. That said, I do see that there could be reasons they wanted to end the series prematurely. The production values of TCW are way above anything on Disney XD, so cost was likely something Disney had an issue with. A lot of people, myself included, don't even get Disney XD, and changing channels 5 years into a shows run is probably more likely to loose a big portion of the audience, rather than pick up more viewers. They're too greedy to let the show finish out it's run on a network owned by their big rival WB.

    If they cared so much about the "liability" of sub-par EU material, I don't think they'd be so keen to cancel a show that was both critically and commercially successful. Clearly this shows a lack of regard for the integrity of the saga as a whole. I don't think this attitude is consistent with what you're describing.


    The evidence isn't really there for them to begin cancelling novels and comics yet.


    The one commonality so far is that they've cancelled any and all on-screen Star Wars media for the next few years leading up to Episode VII. While I personally think the thought process behind this decision is flat out stupid, I am inclined to agree with those who believe Disney is trying to create a "drought" of on-screen Star Wars media leading up to the Sequel Trilogy and with the announcement of spin-offs I think they're going to try and re-create the Avengers model. I don't really think Star Wars is at all the same type of movie, so the tie-in spin-off movies are not a good idea to me in the midst of the new trilogy. After the sequel trilogy and before another main trilogy? Sure, that could work. But during the sequel trilogy as seem to be the plan? I guess we'll see, but Star Wars really isn't the same type of movie as The Avengers and can't be treated as such.
    Last edited by Jedi Master Chuck, Mar 24, 2013
  13. Circular Logic SWTV Interview Host

    Game Host
    Member Since:
    Mar 3, 2013
    star 4
    One thing I'd like to point out regarding the decision to cancel TCW versus other EU (comics, novels, etc.) is the profitability of the venture. It has already been pointed out by many on the boards that Lucas was paying out of his pocket to essentially keep TCW going, regardless of how much profit they actually rake in; in fact, he would likely have supported it even if it merely broke even or was a net loss. When Disney inherited the IP, they likely deemed it too expensive to keep the series going (the cost of animation in CGI probably could not be recouped without some sort of deal like what LFL had with CN), and so pulled the plug on the show. Unfortunate, but understandable from a business point of view.

    The novels and comics, on the other hand, are far cheaper to produce and make profits off of, plus I imagine Disney would be so inclined to honor and continue with existing contracts in order to keep more SW material in the pipeline to satisfy existing fans of the EU. This would certainly be better than a complete drought of SW content prior to the release of Episode VII.
    Last edited by Circular_Logic, Mar 24, 2013
  14. Narutakikun Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2012
    star 4
    Hmm? Howso? I don't see it. Yes, 1313 was a mess under Lucas, and Disney canned it. Also, the EU was a mess under Lucas, and Disney will can that, too. Disney is going to clean up everything that was a mess under Lucas. That's what you do when you buy a company that has a solid core asset that has been mismanaged - fire the people who mismanaged it, then bring in your own handpicked, trusted people to clean up the mess and put things in order.

    I'm sure that Kathy Kennedy is having some talks up at the Ranch that would remind anybody of the first 15 minutes of Return of the Jedi: "You may dispense with the pleasantries, Producer; I am here to put the continuity back in order. Perhaps you can explain it all to Bob Iger - he is most displeased with your apparent lack of control over our intellectual property. I hope you can find new ways to ensure consistency and quality - Iger is not as forgiving as I am".

    "Dear Valued Customer; We here at Disney take your concerns very seriously..."

    And neither had they against TCW, or Detours, or 1313 - until they did, at which point it was all canceled, and everybody involved was fired.

    Kathy Kennedy can only force choke just so many people at once. She'll get around to them. You'll see.

    Keep tellin' yourself that....
    Last edited by Narutakikun, Mar 24, 2013
  15. Narutakikun Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2012
    star 4
    Sure, and direct-to-DVD sequels were cheap to produce, too. Yet Lasseter dropped them like a bad habit, and did so for a reason - churning out crappy drivel cheapens your brand, and for a company like Disney, brand equity is everything. This is, again, a lesson that Disney spent the 90s and early 00s learning the hard way. But they did learn it, and they're not going to forget it any time soon.
    Last edited by Narutakikun, Mar 24, 2013
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  16. Esg Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 4
    No it's not. It IS Star Wars
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  17. GGrievous Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2005
    star 5
    He had to avoid the wrath of Dave Filoni somehow.
  18. HEDGESMFG Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2010
    star 3
    We've actually got a few great threads about this going on in Lit right now attempting to tackle the very specific issues that the show has brought up. Sure, we're doing some of it by the seat of our pants, and some solutions we're coming up with are a tad crazy, but some are actually quite straightforward, but perhaps the only upside of the show's near ending is that it's left us with a pretty clear list of events and therefor should be much easier to retcon into one coherent timeline now.

    It is honestly not 'that' much of a stretch to see both old and new material forming one new long war anymore. Seriously. Hopefully, if Disney doesn't fire Chee (Which, after this cancellation fiasco, I now believe anything's possible), they use some similar ideas to what we've been doing.
  19. Gallandro Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 8, 1998
    star 4
    I tend to agree with you Narutakikun, I think Disney is wiping the slate clean with pretty much everything. I believe the Dark Horse license in next to go as Disney will simply let it expire after 2013. Sure Brian Wood had his contract extended by Dark Horse, but Randy Stradley said not more than two weeks ago that there had been no discussions between Disney and Dark Horse. Not sure if this will impact Del Rey down the road as Disney will be distributing most of their books, including Marvel books through Hachette... they might leave this one alone, but who knows.

    http://www.publishersweekly.com/pw/...er-news/article/50715-disney-to-hachette.html

    Yancy
    Last edited by Gallandro, Mar 24, 2013
  20. GGrievous Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2005
    star 5
    Is Cad Bane a Duros? :p

    But I don't know what to make of Chee anymore.
  21. HEDGESMFG Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2010
    star 3
    I don't know if he'll even be working for LFL for much longer the way things are going.

    Fanon may soon be the only way to determine continuity with how I imagine Disney will run things.
  22. Gallandro Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 8, 1998
    star 4
    I'm not sure Disney knows exactly what they want to do. I belong to this Disney/Lucasfilm marketing page called ObiWantstoKnowMe.com (yes horribly cheesy I know). It asks questions via survey, polls and emails, soliciting responses about how to make the brand better, what kind of future products do you want to see, etc.

    Disney is definitely trying to find some way to make all parties happy, but their recent decisions will likely alienate younger fans, and if they mess with the comic license or book license they run the rish of ticking off the EU community. Some suggest they are removing themselves from the Prequel era, but on the marketing page most of the banners are Prequel era characters and some of their questions tend to skew towards "what kinds of things are the kids in your house interested in" type questions.

    Their last set of questions asked a lot of question about May 4th (Star Wars Day) and what kind of activities you plan on that day... it appears they are trying to absorb fan created activities into some official capacity.


    Yancy
    Last edited by Gallandro, Mar 24, 2013
  23. kubricklynch Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 10, 2012
    star 3
    My Jar-Jar Coloring book IS Star Wars too. Is that canon?

    I'm an EU fan, I've read dozens of novels and comics, but unfortunately, it's time to face facts.
    Last edited by kubricklynch, Mar 24, 2013
  24. Esg Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 4
    You have a severe misunderstanding between merchandise and actual tie ins
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  25. kubricklynch Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 10, 2012
    star 3
    Is was a joke, to make a point. Just because something has Star Wars on it, doesn't make it canon.

    If Lucas considered the EU to be canon, why would he blatantly contradict it in practically every episode of TCW? They didn't even make the slightest effort not to create continuity errors!

    Again, not saying that this is a good thing. But its what happened.
    Last edited by kubricklynch, Mar 24, 2013