Lit Retcons and storytelling - when they make things better or worse

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Charlemagne19, Sep 16, 2013.

  1. Lazy Storm Trooper Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 18, 2012
    star 4

    That it! The mother of all retcons!

    Kenth goes back in time causing the ST timeline and replacing Anakin and in a different universe he doesn't and the EU universe is created!
    DigitalMessiah likes this.
  2. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2004
    star 5
    The point of divergence of the sequel trilogy has been revealed!
    Revanfan1 likes this.
  3. Revanfan1 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 3, 2013
    star 5
    You know, even though it was a joke, that is at least a marginally good idea...Luke finds out something from future-someone about how badly things turn out so he does something differently, causing a different future. Hey, Ben can flow-walk, right? Have him flow-walk back and warn his dad to fix things!
  4. Lazy Storm Trooper Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 18, 2012
    star 4
  5. Revanfan1 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 3, 2013
    star 5
    Well, my original post was, anyways. :p
  6. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    I'm planning to skip the post-NJO books so maybe I'll avoid ever learning WTF flow-walking is.
  7. Revanfan1 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 3, 2013
    star 5
    Do you really want to know? Don't click if you don't...

    Show Spoiler
    Flow-walking is basically travelling back in time using the Force so you can observe the events of the past...but you can't change them yourself. The Force changes everything back to normal when you return to your proper time. The only thing affected is the memory of those who saw you. For example, if I flow-walked back to when you were a child, and I talked to you, you would remember it, and I would remember it, but that's it.
  8. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2004
    star 5
    Flow-walking is still capable of changing the past despite the restriction Denning put on it, because the forum figured out a loop hole which Denning planned to use to resurrect Anakin. Remember, he planned to resurrect him when he was writing the outline to Invincible, which is after it was established it wasn't capable of changing the past.

    Basically, you can alter the past so long as the appearance of it being what it was is maintained. Ergo, Anakin would have survived and been brought to the future, but it required Jacen to die and have a permanent Force illusion of being Anakin placed on him. I imagine that less absurdly you can just have a guy do a mind-rub on everyone involved and implant false memories Revan style, thus destroying any narrative integrity.
    Revanfan1 likes this.
  9. Revanfan1 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 3, 2013
    star 5
    So if that had happened, would Anakin have been in a permanent Jacen-form? Or would Jacen have just...ceased to exist? I almost wish it had happened, if it wouldn't have wasted Anakin's sacrifice. Anakin would've been horrified if he came back to life and saw the stuff going on since he died.
  10. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2004
    star 5
    Jacen would have traveled back in time to the Yuuzhan Vong War and been cremated -- every reference to Anakin's body after his "death" in SBS and Dark Journey would have been Jacen. Anakin would not have looked like Jacen, Jacen was trying to project an illusion of Anakin to confuse or cause doubt or hesitation in Jaina.
  11. Revanfan1 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 3, 2013
    star 5
    So what you're telling me is, Jacen would've gone back in time, taking on the form of Anakin's body, and died; Jacen's physical form was morphed into a 17-year-old Anakin's body, and they would've "switched places"? How would that've worked? Would Vergere have taught Anakin in Jacen's body, or would there have been two Anakins, one with Jacen's brain and dead, and one alive? Or would...oh, my head hurts.
  12. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2004
    star 5

    You're over-complicating it. The NJO is unchanged. Darth Caedus in 41 ABY would have traveled back to 27 ABY -- Anakin would have traveled from 27 ABY to 41 ABY. Caedus in 27 ABY would have been stuck with the Anakin illusion over him that he created to confuse Jaina.

    It's an absurd series of contrivances to resurrect Anakin. I'm not sure I understand why Jacen has to time travel to create an illusion of Anakin, or how he would mess up in doing so.
  13. Revanfan1 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 3, 2013
    star 5
    Aaaaah. I get it now. Makes sense. Thank you. :)

    Also, Caedus having to time-travel to make an illusion of Anakin is especially nonsensical when you realize that he did the same thing using Ailyn Vel's face, and she was already dead, too, and he didn't have to time-travel to use her face. It would've been amusing if Caedus had switched places with Ailyn, though. Killed by himself. :p
  14. purplerain Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 14, 2013
    star 4
    Here's a retcon that I'm not sure what to think of: when the Sith were founded. It was thought to be 25,000 BBY until NEC said that it's 7000 BBY.
  15. Vialco Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 6, 2007
    star 4
    I like the change that Lucas made, putting Hayden as Anakin's Force Ghost. It makes a lot more sense to someone like me, who grew up watching the Prequels. To me, Star Wars is first and foremost, the PT. So seeing the youthful and happy Anakin Skywalker, finally wearing white robes, makes a great deal of sense to me. In turning back to the light, Anakin becomes the good man he was before he pledged himself to the Sith.
    Lady_Misty and DigitalMessiah like this.
  16. Robimus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 6, 2007
    star 5

    Must be easy to be a lightsider. You can mass murder folks for a few decades, but then say I'm sorry on my death bed and suddenly you were never a bad guy.
    Last edited by Robimus, Sep 17, 2013
    Jedi Ben likes this.
  17. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2004
    star 5
    I'd argue making Anakin a ghost is a bigger punishment than if his sense of self was obliterated at death, because now he has to unlive with the guilt for eternity.
    Lady_Misty likes this.
  18. Robimus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 6, 2007
    star 5
    Punishment or not, it is silly.
  19. Revanfan1 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 3, 2013
    star 5
    Well...would he even feel guilt? Netherworld of the Force and all that? I doubt "life goes on" except in infinite gray smoke. I don't know; I think accessing the real world would allow the spirits to feel emotions such as guilt and sadness, but when they're actually in the Netherworld, would they even feel a negative emotion?
  20. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2004
    star 5
    What is silly? That Star Wars doesn't have a reward/punishment based afterlife?

    So long as they continue to exist as self and maintain their identity, I'd argue that they would feel emotion. But it seems likely that they merged with the Force and ceased to exist as individuals after the fulfillment of the prophecy, though there is "stand firm."
    Last edited by DigitalMessiah, Sep 17, 2013
  21. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    Maybe I'm just not religious enough to understand why becoming a Force ghost is either a reward or a punishment.

    It just is. And Luke got to see his father, which gave him closure.
    Gamiel and DigitalMessiah like this.
  22. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2004
    star 5
    Agreed.
  23. Robimus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 6, 2007
    star 5

    It is a story telling issue over and above anything to do with the after life. That Obi Wan & Yoda would stand beside Anakin and smile at him, the same guy who was responsible for destroying their lives, murdering millions - including helpless children during Order 66, and give him the thumbs up is silly.

    Do you think it is maybe just Luke seeing things :p Seems to me like Obi-Wan & Yoda should be looking at that guy with raised eyebrows. "What doing in ghost land are you? Private club this is!"
    Last edited by Robimus, Sep 17, 2013
  24. Revanfan1 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 3, 2013
    star 5
    Yeah, I'm not entirely sure how it worked–but there was one comic where these two Force sensitives died and when they went into the Netherworld of the Force, Yoda met them there, and he began training them as a Jedi inside the Force. Though that's a little weird to me.
  25. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2004
    star 5
    It's a storytelling issue that they were able to forgive him? Alrighty then.