Lit Retcons and storytelling - when they make things better or worse

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Charlemagne19, Sep 16, 2013.

  1. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    Getting back to retcons, here's some general thoughts I'd like to see before the EU is rebooted in two years (if it happens):

    The Force Unleashed

    * A book starring Starkiller, assuming the good folks at EA don't want to make The Force Unleashed 3. I just played 2 last night and think EA would do very well with a sequel. They should just not make it suck.

    (TFU2 is the Dragon Age 2 of Star Wars)

    I'd also love to see Starkiller referenced in Leia's thoughts when thinking about the early rebellion.

    * I'd like to also have an explanation for Starkiller's ridiculous powers. Some of the ones I've liked is Vader has been experimenting on Galen his entire life with Sith Alchemy. Another is that Galen doesn't realize Vader has trained him to destroy his body with the Dark Side by overloading and if he continues using the Force he'll kill himself.

    * I'd love to see General Koto in future Clone Wars EU material.

    The Mandalorians

    * Does anyone want to see the New Mandalorians still be a surviving movement on Mandalore? Guys who are trying to say, "can we return to peace? This whole war thing hasn't done us any favors."

    Ventress

    * I really want to see her final fate. I'm all for Vader killing her since she's been slain by him twice already.

    It's no surprise, really, that the majority of my stuff I want to see expanded on are actually smoothing outs of existing retcons.
    Last edited by Charlemagne19, Sep 18, 2013
  2. Gamiel Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 16, 2012
    star 5
    Yes:)
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  3. Alixen Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 7, 2003
    star 4
    Don't you swear like that! :eek: That's a terrible thing to say. TFU2 practically 'fixes' the worst criticisms of TFU1, and turns Vader into the manipulating mastermind, who after practically beating Galen to a pulp, turns out to have intended to lose all along.

    DA2 is just a horror that I wish had never been inflicted upon me, and set the stage for later and worse betrayals. Not to be over-dramatic or anything.


    I actually can accept his powers, especially if he has been brought up to not understand the 'limits' of the universe. We know a rock is heavy; and our own mind would tell us such if we tried to lift it with the force. Even in the Jedi Temple, they were assuredly given basic educations before they started working with Yoda, and telekinesis. I believe Vader taught him in a bubble, so to speak, and thus he had a different frame of reference when it came to what was 'possible'.

    Even aside from that, the various things he does have all been done and surpassed by other force users, in other areas of the franchise. His basic ability to massacre several foes in a short period, leap and throw force powers has been demonstrated by mere Padawans in TCW, already. Others have brought down or moved Star Destroyers; I believe some without the benefit of gravity on their side. It also should be noted that it requires a five minute mini-game of him straining to do so, IIRC. Other have tumbled from low orbit with the force, or at least long distances. I was replaying and re-watching the various things he does, and its more the amount in a small time frame that is odd. When it comes to crushing AT-STs and using TK to crush/blow up TIEs, I think that most force users could, but simply don't, as its just an extension/expansion of force crush.

    Now, the force push/wave that disintegrates people is a little iffy, but isn't that a KOTOR power? (In smaller scale, granted.)

    Starkiller is an example of a (loosely) controlled storm, a force of nature. He lacks the fine control that figures like Yoda, Palpatine, and later Luke show, and I believe would actually lose a true contest with any of them (and it is proven, against Palpatine) when it comes to force usage. He is all shock and awe.


    I would, as long as its a cameo and to show how far he has fallen. The only way I can deal with Kota is that by TFU 2 he is a broken and enbittered man, a General, but really just a force-user and no longer a Jedi. He has not fallen to the dark side, but he is bloodthirsty and bitter, and at the least fallen from grace. This portrayal of him still allows for the still fully Jedi, Obi-Wan and Yoda, to be what they are and fulfil their roles without another master wandering around and stepping on toes. And of course, by the time Luke is the Jedi posterboy for the Rebels, this means Kota is either a deep secret of the special forces, or no longer a factor. I'd guess the latter, since we never see him after RotJ.
    Last edited by Alixen, Sep 18, 2013
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  4. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    I finished it about an hour ago and my opinion on the game is somewhat hampered by the fact it seems to have a rather bare-bones plot. Starkiller awakens, rebels against Vader, and then rescues Juno. There's just not enough plot and I feel like I'm watching a very prolonged DLC. It doesn't help I wanted to see the Juno and Starkiller relationship develop but they only meet at the end.

    This is true, but I would have loved to have an "official" explanation.

    Yeah, he's the bomb Vader made.

    Eh, Koto is almost 100% certain to die before ANH, let alone TESB.

    Still, it's kind of interesting what little we know about him indicates he's a racist against clones.
    Last edited by Charlemagne19, Sep 18, 2013
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  5. Alixen Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 7, 2003
    star 4

    I can sympathize, I too wanted more personal time with Galen and Juno. I was just surprised, and cheered, by Vader's portrayal enough that it rendered all other flaws moot. Discussion in 'SOD' have also contributed to this.
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  6. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    Yeah, I'm totally of the mind Vader was lying to the real Starkiller while working on his Clone Sith Army.

    I also think he threw the first fight, believing (wrongly) Starkiller wouldn't kill him.

    I'm okay with Galen winning the second fight because Vader wasn't actually BEATEN by Starkiller until:

    1. Vader "killed" Juno--which clearly surprised Vader and stuck him with the most ****ed off Force user ever given wholly to the Dark Side.

    2. Vader didn't want to kill Starkiller even when the latter was clearly beyond reason. He was trying to reason with Starkiller the entire time.

    3. Starkiller's "killing blow" is kind of hard to prepare against as he brings down natural lightning to enhance his force-lightning against Darth Vader.
  7. DarthJenari Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 17, 2011
    star 4

    Personally, I don't think Galen's Force Abilities really needs an explanation. He's an above average Force User to begin with, and has massive potential. We've seen that it does happen outside the Skywalker bloodline, even in families with no prior connection to the Force. He's then trained by Darth Vader himself for over a decade. That's a combination for success right there.

    In terms of The New Mandalorians, since they're canon now they have to be dealt with at some point. I'd prefer if they didn't exist, but they do. Maul's pretty much destroyed them as it is, so we just need a story detailing how due to his actions and effect on their planet they're going back to their warrior ways, and are going to mingle with the Mandalorian Protectors.

    I find it interesting that even before TCW, we'd never gotten a final fate for Ventress, though Obi-Wan assumes she's dead.
  8. Alixen Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 7, 2003
    star 4
    We sort of did, didn't we, with Obsession? She flew off into the black, with no allegiances?

    We still have a fate even now; she is a force-using bounty hunter. Its not an end to her story, but frankly, quite enough characters have 'ends' in the EU at this point. It would be nice if a few survived to use our imaginations with. Such as, until Rebels or some other source tells us what happened, i'm assuming she and Ahsoka form a tentative working relationship. But thats just me.
  9. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    I'd prefer Ventress to still have a nasty edge to her, personally. Less evil not being good.
  10. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    I like her as a Force-using bounty hunter and a mercenary type. She isn't taking sides in this farce of a war; she works for herself. And if she does partner with Ahsoka, it's because she gets a benefit from it.

    I don't think she needs to be nasty, but I don't want her becoming an idealist for some noble cause either.
  11. Robimus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 6, 2007
    star 5
    So "we" have forgiven Palpatine then? I mean he deserves the same benefit all the other dead villains do right?

    Not an alien concept, just a concept I don't agree with. I specifically avoided the inclusion of religious elements that may have been the inspiration for the scene because I think it would take us into a discussion a lot of people might not want to have.

    More than anything Lucas was trying to show us Vader's redemption on screen. And it must have worked for a lot of people, but I still don't buy it myself.
  12. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    I don't hate Palpatine, psychopath that he is. If he was redeemed I'd be okay with that.

    Then again, I view evil as a response to evil as still evil.
  13. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2004
    star 5
    "The Jedi are trained to let go. They're trained from birth. They're not supposed to form attachments. They can love people -- in fact, they should love everybody. They should love their enemies; they should love the Sith."
    Last edited by DigitalMessiah, Sep 18, 2013
  14. DarthJenari Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 17, 2011
    star 4

    "Compassion is for those who deserve it."

    :oops:
  15. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2004
    star 5
    Compassion is for those who deserve it. But the gardening philosophy metaphor is wrong.

    I kinda get the impression that some of the ideas which people either defend or attack here are based solely upon whom says them, rather than on their merit.
    Last edited by DigitalMessiah, Sep 18, 2013
  16. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    Yeah, that's quite possibly the most out of character line in history. Like Han Solo always dreaming of settling down in a Skyhouse.

    ****Digression****

    At the end of the day, Darth Vader murdered millions of people and billions by inaction. He's a horrible person and one of the archetypes of evil. Anakin Skywalker wasn't that great of a guy either, mostly being a hero in the Greek sense. He accomplished great deeds and heroic actions while being an extremely flawed being.

    Darth Vader's death and redemption is interesting because the concept of "making up" for his crimes is impossible. Darth Vader could have atoned for 2000 years and still not saved as many people as he killed.

    Darth Vader WOULD have done these things, however. He had become Anakin Skywalker again and was determined to make up for what he'd done as evil at the cost of his life. He was willing to give up everything he had to save his son. The fact he didn't live long enough to save more lives doesn't mean anything because the intent was there.

    Of course, do we really judge these things in dollars and cents. You save a life, you can take a life. That's not how real life works. It's also the issue that confronted Angel the Vampire. He could work forever to save as many lives as possible but that would never erase the evil he did in the process.

    Divorced of religion is the question of retribution and what sort of benefit it provides to people. Is evil more powerful than good? If a man kills one person, does that define him over all other actions? In that respect, Stannis Baratheon (known as the embodiment of ridiculous harshness) may be more fair than most. He believes good actions do not erase evil ones--but he ALSO does not believe that evil actions erase the good. You are the sum of all of your actions.

    For me, I go with the idea "Good and evil are directions." You are either being better or being worse. Palpatine is Space Hitler but at the end of his life he might have abandoned the Dark Side. For me, holding to the man he was is less important than encouraging the man he could be.

    And the Force is all eternity. If there's no forgiveness, there is no Heaven because it would be hell to have your mistakes all that is ever remembered about you.
    Last edited by Charlemagne19, Sep 18, 2013
  17. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    I can't be pissed off at a fictional character for committing fictional bad acts.

    Either a character is entertaining to watch, or he/she isn't. I have enjoyed villains who did terrible things but had an interesting and complex story. I don't like one-dimensional characters, either good or bad, and that one-dimensionality made me dislike Palpatine more than any of his deeds. And I have disliked "good" characters because they got on my damn nerves.

    I will say that I've gotten angry at a character or two for hurting a character that I liked. So there's not a total separation from reality there. :p But as far as my deciding whether a character deserves forgiveness/an afterlife/etc., I don't really go there.
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  18. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    Speaking of Darth Maul, I mentioned early his resurrection was both terrible and good.

    A retcon I *HATED* though was in Darth Plagueis.

    The idea that Darth Maul was a "false apprentice."

    That was not one of Luceno's finer moments.
    Last edited by Charlemagne19, Sep 19, 2013
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  19. Solent Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 4, 2001
    star 2
    Where is that from?

    I think Jedi don´t need to love their enemies, not hating them should be enough.
  20. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2004
    star 5
    "The Jedi are trained to let go. They're trained from birth. They're not supposed to form attachments. They can love people -- in fact, they should love everybody. They should love their enemies; they should love the Sith." -- George Lucas

    "Compassion is for those who deserve it." -- Luke in Allies

    EDIT:

    "Compassion, which I would define as unconditional love, is central to a Jedi's life, so you might say we're encouraged to love."

    "Love is nothing more than the recognition that two are one. That all is one."
    Last edited by DigitalMessiah, Sep 19, 2013
  21. Solent Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 4, 2001
    star 2
    Who wrote that BS? Luke is not Kenshiro.

    I´d say PT Jedi have mixed letting go with giving up. At least from Yoda´s "advice" to Anakin and some Clone Wars episodes.
    Lady_Misty likes this.
  22. Lady_Misty Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 21, 2007
    star 4
    Wait, that makes Luke a hypocrite if he believes that compassion is for those that deserve it. Luke believed that he could help his father who many people including Obi-Wan and Palpatine believed that it would be a waste of Luke's time and energy to help. Obi-Wan wrote Anakin off for good reasons, Palpatine had twisted Anakin into more or less what he was in the OT, Leia might have felt that it would be futile to try and help a long time enemy. Vader cut Luke's hand OFF and a year or so later Luke is determined to reach out to what is left of Anakin Skywalker and bring him back to the Light. That doesn't sound like someone who feels like compassion is or only a few. Luke might have even pitied Palpatine but who knows.
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  23. DarthJenari Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 17, 2011
    star 4
    It's an awful piece of writing from FOTJ and should just be ignored. Horribly out of character.
  24. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2004
    star 5
    He's been OOC since TJK, IMO.
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  25. blackmyron Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 29, 2005
    star 5
    Absolutely, not necessarily on Mandalore itself. I can see the movement in exile in Kalevala and some of the worlds in the Mandalorian Sector.

    I'd actually like to see a final meeting between her and Obi-Wan - and not one that ended up in a battle.
    Last edited by blackmyron, Sep 19, 2013
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