Lit Retcons and storytelling - when they make things better or worse

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Charlemagne19, Sep 16, 2013.

  1. Revanfan1 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 3, 2013
    star 5
    Hey, Pellaeon, Jag, and Vitor Reige got there, didn't they?
  2. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2004
    star 5
    I'm making a distinction between the Galactic Empire and the Imperial Remnant. Nutjobs probably won't work in the remnant because they don't have the luxury of resources to waste. Daala ran through hers pretty quickly.

    But she achieved her position in the Galactic Empire.
    Last edited by DigitalMessiah, Sep 19, 2013
    Revanfan1 likes this.
  3. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    The woman who almost destroyed the Rebellion? Repeatedly?

    Nah.
  4. Revanfan1 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 3, 2013
    star 5
    And was totally nuts–had to have been to have done the things she did. :p
  5. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    What makes her crazier than Daala?
  6. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2004
    star 5
    She had a thing for Palpatine.
    Revanfan1 likes this.
  7. Revanfan1 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 3, 2013
    star 5
    And based on Face Loran's description of her from the time he sat on her lap as a little boy, she was totally creepy anyways.
  8. blackmyron Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 29, 2005
    star 5
    "Don't get married, don't have kids, and you'll never see your family again" Anakin was doomed the moment Qui-Gon died.
    Not for lack of trying, though - she attempted to wreck Coruscant and kill tens if not hundreds of billions while sending the New Republic into chaos in the JAT. Who stopped her? Kyp in his Magic Flying Machine.
    That very fact should've been political poison of the worst kind.
  9. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    Daala's incompetence gets exaggerated.

    We don't know if Mon Calamari's Foamwander City was their version of New York or not.

    She also conquered dozens of worlds during her Blitzkrieg.

    She just lost her SSD attacking the Jedi Academy.
  10. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2004
    star 5
    Her incompetence is that she attacks civilian targets that have no actual impact on a conflict between her and the New Republic.

    In her mind, is the New Republic going to surrender once she demoralizes them?

    Or is her conquering worlds a retcon to make her more competent?

    Even if none of those things were restricted by the Jedi, his mother and Padme were still going to die, and he was still going to respond the same way -- he saw Padme whenever he had the chance during the war in secret, and that didn't stop him from being attached -- if anything, it worsened his reaction to his visions. He did have a wife. That he wasn't supposed to didn't make him more attached.

    I won't disagree that forbidding marriage didn't help him cope with it. But he developed the attachment in spite of the Jedi rules, not because of them. The Jedi rules simply worsened his coping skills.
    Last edited by DigitalMessiah, Sep 19, 2013
    Gamiel likes this.
  11. CT-867-5309 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2011
    star 5
    Hey, don't pick on Ysanne. She was a beautiful, kind, warm and delightfully charming woman. And one hell of a dancer.

    That's how I knew Ysanne, in private. In public, Ysanne was doing a difficult job in a man's Empire, and she got a little uptight. She was just nervous. She even developed an anxiety disorder. When everyone started calling her Iceheart behind her back...well, you have no idea how much that hurt her.

    Well, she's gone now, so you don't have to worry about her anymore. So just leave her alone and let her rest in peace.

    @};-
    JackG, BigAl6ft6 and DigitalMessiah like this.
  12. blackmyron Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 29, 2005
    star 5
    Coruscant? The NR would've been ruined if she had succeeded.

    He was the Chosen One, and he was brought in at a much older age than normal. They made exceptions for the Cereans on marriage, they couldn't see where this was going?
    The Order was broken at that point. They had lost touch with what it was to be a sentient in many ways - the later Dune books had exactly the same point, as the long-dead Leto II leaves a message for the Bene Gesserit, telling them that they failed (and that he had to spend his existence fixing their mistakes) because in the process of working for humanity's benefit, they had lost their humanity. NR Luke - a literary accident, since they didn't know what the PT Jedi were like at the time - brought the Jedi back to where they should've been, and the end of TUF was the culmination of that process - which makes the end of FOTJ all that more depressing. (And the end of the original Legacy comic all that more hopeful).
    Alixen likes this.
  13. Vialco Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 6, 2007
    star 4
    I like the Jedi Order being stodgy and very strict. It makes Anakin's turning on them much more palatable.

    And after the Season 5 finale, I don't really feel much sympathy for the Jedi Council. They were going to stand by and let Ahsoka be executed, even tho she was innocent.
    Alixen and VanishingReality like this.
  14. CT-867-5309 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2011
    star 5
    Without Natasi Daala, there wouldn't be an Empire. She saved the Empire from the tyrannical warlords and united it. Before that spitfire Daala came along, Gilad Pellaeon was a gutless coward who retreated at the first sign of trouble, unable to stand up to the likes of Treuten Teradoc and his ilk who were destroying the Empire right in front of Yellow Pelly's eyes. Natasi Daala did what Thrawn never could, she made Yellow Pelly into a man, the man who went on to become Supreme Commander.

    Natasi Daala was a hero in an age of traitors and tyrants.
    Revanfan1 likes this.
  15. Revanfan1 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 3, 2013
    star 5
    You know what? I actually buy that. :p
  16. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    Basically, during Darksaber, Daala's attack on the Republic took everyone by surprise. The Yavin IV attack failed miserably but everyone else succeeded. Thus, the Empire became a major threat again. It's not until, I kid you not, Daala attacked the Empire with Han, Luke, and Leia in Planet of Twilight the Empire began to collapse again.
  17. Grade Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 17, 2013
    star 1
    For me the LOTF Jedi, actually ruins everything, with Luke and what mean to be Jedi on every level.

    I won't go further aside from book 1 even the key moment in Betrayal, I thought that Luke failed as teacher in passing the knowledge he learn from Yoda and Kenobi.

    The scene in question was actually the Jedi pratically started the war, quite literally. The Jedi decide, following the orders Council of the Galactic Alliance, to strike at the leadership of Corellia, after discovering compelling evidence by Jedi knight-who later would become a Sith (actually according some users Jacen is a Jedi in falling to Dark Side and no one notice...) found, even as he becomes the leader of Galactic Alliance, the Jedi never actually wondered if those evidences that started it all, were manufactured.

    First of all despite the alarming evidence discovered by a "Jedi Knight" and all that, Jedi do not act like they are the Navy Seals or some kind of special forces, to capture the Corellian leadership. Yoda even specifically says ESB: "You will know... when you are calm, at peace, passive. A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, NEVER for attack." What does Luke do? Well he does the opposite what Yoda taught him .I mean it is one of the first lessons Yoda teaches him. How can he forget about that or even lead a strike force of Jedi to attack the Corellian leadership. No wonder general public don't like them.

    It was that moment on, I lost all hopes for the New Jedi Order and it was the moment that Luke would become the most known failure teacher of all time.
  18. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    To be fair, when the Corellians were building a Death Star, they deserved to be tried an executed for war crimes.
  19. Revanfan1 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 3, 2013
    star 5
    Centerpoint isn't the Death Star...it's worse. And they didn't build it...just fixed it. :p
  20. Vialco Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 6, 2007
    star 4
    It's the same principle though. The Corellians had no reason whatsoever to try and reactivate a space station whose main function was to obliterate star systems.

    Jacen should have just killed Thrackan on Centerpoint and ended the war before it began. Just like Mace should have killed Dooku on Geonosis.

    I could go on about how Jedi hesitate and doom the galaxy to conflict, but you get the point...
  21. Robimus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 6, 2007
    star 5
    So there is Heaven but no Hell? These rules are tricky indeed.

    That is kinda the point of how a good villain works though. Maybe you won't be "pissed" at them, but you aren't getting invested in the story very much if you simply don't care what they do, or don't do, or what happens to them.

    If we are going to talk Game of Thrones, without getting too spoilerific, my question would be more along the lines of asking if your pining to see King Joffrey redeemed? I suspect, based on your Palpatine comments that the answer is yes.

    That said I suspect most of the audience would not like to see King Joffrey be forgiven. Of course Vader is different on a conceptual level than either Palpatine or Joffrey because he is not meant to be the pure evil incarnate.
    Last edited by Robimus, Sep 19, 2013
  22. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    King Joffrey's fate is one I already know and I love to loathe him. I would say, however, that I'm satisfied with what happens to him.
    Last edited by Charlemagne19, Sep 19, 2013
  23. Darth_Garak Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2005
    star 3
    Unlike Palpatine, though, Joffrey strikes me as somewhat lacking in sanity. He's also a sadist how enjoys it way too much - look at what happened to Rose.
  24. AdmiralWesJanson Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2005
    star 5
    Actually, the NR are the ones who fixed Centerpoint the first time, as part of a plan to lure a major Vong invasion fleet to Corellia and trap them there, without the knowledge or consent of the Corellians, Selonians, or Drall. And then when things went bad, Anakin Solo was ready to use the gun to wipe out the Vong at Fondor, but Wonderboy Jacen told him not to, so Thracken stepped up, made the shot, but with far more collateral damage than Anakin would have. Still enough to make Thracken a hero, and position him for power later on.
  25. Havac Some Guy Who Moderates Lit

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Sep 29, 2005
    star 7
    That's . . . not really how it happened. Daala's forces attacked the NR . . . but they didn't conquer anything, as you alleged. They slagged things -- civilian targets, mostly, priceless cultural treasures included -- but they conquered precisely nothing. Daala is a terrorist, not a warrior, and always has been.

    And the attacks didn't make the Remnant a major threat. They were a rash of aimless pinpricks from a secluded power lashing out blindly, but did nothing to increase the Remnant's power, territory, or resources. Daala's contribution to the Remnant's strength was to organize it -- to bring the warlord assets together. But it took Pellaeon using them in a non-insane-terrorist manner and actually taking territory to actually increase the Remnant's power as a threat to the NR.