ST Retcons in the ST

Sith Order, perhaps (if there are even Sith... dark Force-users? Sure, of course...but it'd be very nice to see something other than "black-robed guy with a red saber who occasionally shoots lightning from his fingers" as the villain)... the Empire needs little retcon. They were dealt a serious blow in VI; even in the SE, it doesn't mean the Empire is overthrown, just shellshocked. That party on Coruscant could've been a massive riot, and once authorities got their bearings and got over the news that their widely-feared leader was gone, they could've put a stop to that celebration. Naboo, maybe there wasn't a heavy Imperial presence there, so they were now in open revolution or secession... Tatooine, you'd think people would be celebrating Jabba's death more than the Empire's defeat at Endor given the backwater status of that world, and that the people in Mos Eisley would already be plotting over picking up the pieces of Jabba's criminal empire. Bespin, sure they'd cheer, too, as now the Empire has bigger things to worry about than them & their small mining operation.

I'm not thrilled with the Empire being a significant presence in the ST, but as an EU fan I completely understand its continued existence... I can get behind the "cold war" rumors, with two separate nations akin to the Republic & the CIS, allowing for Imperial stuff to be all over the place and to ostensibly be the 'bad guys', but also maybe not quite as 'bad' now that they don't have two dark wizards in control of things, causing everyone to fear being choked to death or disappeared for the slightest mistake.

 

I think retcons are pretty important for the ST. And pretty much inevitable since Lucas tried ending it at part 6, and now it's part 7. 6 should no longer function as an ending. 9 should be the ending. 6 can always be the end of Anakin's arc, but everything else is up for grabs -- Sith, Empire, Luke.

We already have at least one retcon to the Saga, which may or may not affect the ST -- the Inquisitor(s). That already, at this point, creates the possibility of other darksiders being around who were trained by Sith.

Also, what if Ezra not only survived but trained his own apprentice? Might that apprentice show up in the ST?

And then Boba Fett: also a good candidate to make a return in some way.

 

Oh, come on. How many planets do you need to see celebrating victory over the Empire to be convinced that Lucas intended it to be completely defeated? It's no accident that so many fans had reached that conclusion. Stop grasping at straws.

VI's battle took place on one planet, so why are all these other planets suddenly and publicly celebrating except to demonstrate the Empire's complete defeat? Why didn't we see a bunch of planets celebrating at the end of IV if they're so similar? It's too obvious what Lucas was saying.

 

A prohecy is a common trope yes, but often they tend to more with it. The Matrix films for ex. In the first you had the standard "chosen one" prophecy but in the sequels it was revealed that this was a lie, just a system of control. In Harry Potter, Harry is burdened by his status as "Chosen one" and a point is also made that even without any prophecy, he would still oppose Voldemort because of who he is as a person.

And how is it efficient? Isn't, Obi-Wan/Qui-Gon finds a young Anakin who is unusally gifted with the Force and takes it upon himself to train Anakin, equally if not more efficient? As I said before, there is enough going on with him as a character that he doesn't need this as well.

And as for Anakins ego, he never talks about the prophecy so it might not be connected with Anakins big ego. And you could simply have Anakin as very gifted and everything comes easy to him and that makes him arrogant and reckless. Also Palpatine's continued stroking of his ego also played a part.
Had Anakin dealt with the prophecy or it was shown to have affected him as a character then it might have worked. As it is now, it is just there and it seems to have had no impact on him.

To me, you waste time with the prophecy and it amounts to very little. That time could have been better spent elsewhere, like developing Anakin and Obi-Wans relationship in the first film.
Also, to me, it gives away the ending, Anakin WILL destroy the Sith so his turn back is now telegraphed ahead of time. Also how often have people here argued about what the prophecy actually means? Is it just "Kill all Sith" and how is that balance, was Anakin supposed to destroy the Jedi as well, did he have any free will or was his actions determined ahead of time.

The OT films worked fine without a prophecy. The earlier scripts did have one but it was quite simple, "In the time of the greatest Darkness there shall come a saviour. And he shall be known as the Son of the Suns." Since Luke came from Tatooine and it had two suns. If a prophecy adds something to the story and is interesting then fine. However, to me, the PT prophecy was underdeveloped, uninteresting and thus unneeded.

Lastly, Lucas have said that the PT is supposed to be a tragedy which kind of implies character work.

Bye for now.
Blackboard Monitor

 

I've honestly never seen this big celebration at the end of rotj. Is this is the special edition or something?

 

Consider yourself lucky. Yub nub all the way.

 

I personally prefer it myself, not necessarily because of the celebrations but because the new "Victory Celebration" sounds a little more dramatic and "trillogy-ending" than Yub Nub did for me. But now these additional scenes are the main things that are likely to cause contradictions.


Just curious, did the Story Group ever specify which versions of the films are considered canon?


I wonder if its possible they might try and retcon Luke as the true "Chosen One". To be honest, that's what I used to think as a kid until Episode III came out. And I remember in TCW one of the "Whills"/Priestesses said something along the lines of [Yoda] is to train one who will save the universe from a great unbalance". Not sure how I feel about it, and I doubt they'd even mention it onscreen, but I feel like its an easy way to keep the idea alive and still keep having Sith pop up.

 

I prefer the music. Much more fitting, IMO. Yub nub is unintentionally hilarious.

 

That reworked ROTJ victory scene always gives me shivers. Of all the changes and additions to the OT, that's the one I give a full, free pass too. The music's perfect. It's great!

I don't see why it needs to be retconned if the Empire is still somewhat in existence. All you see in those shots are mass public gatherings and celebrating. Maybe they escalated into full blown revolts, maybe they were quashed soon after. Either way, the death of the emperor, Vader and the destruction of their super weapon is presumably a huge turning point in the war that would lead to the Rebels ultimate victory.

 

New victory music destroys yub nub. So good

 

The new ending made sense when the saga was supposed to end then, now its going to seem wierd to me when i'm going to watch ROTJ before watching TFA.

 

The ending really celebrated the death of the Emperor. The person who singlehandedly destroyed the Republic and the Jedi.

 

Yeah, I bet the death of the Emperor was still a massive blow to the Empire. The idea of Palpatine and how powerful he was probably was a big part of what kept the systems in the Empire "in line". Once the all-powerful Emperor who took down the Republic was proven to be able to be destroyed, it probably made people realize that the Empire could be defeated. So a place like Naboo, where Palpatine originated from probably felt especially helpless but as soon as Palpatine was defeated they probably started a revolt right then. Even if there's another Emperor in charge, they will never have the power or the mental image of Palpatine and so I think the Empire will not be as all-powerful as before.

 

As far as retcons go, I think they're inevitable, at least in the sense that they're challenging previously unchallenged, though not necessarily canon, beliefs. In a way, the way that the saga constantly plays with the Rule of Two and Order 66 is a way this is already happening. Honestly with the way things were before the EU was wiped out of canon, one wouldn't have been wrong to believe that there were several thousand Jedi and Sith at the time of ANH going off on their own adventures who actually orchestrated every major victory and defeat in the OT.

 

If I remember correctly a voice even said to him "...there is another....skywalker"

 

The end of ROTJ was winning the battle, not the war. I've always felt there were a lot of Imperials still out there, leaderless.

 

What? Really? I'm sorry, but having a compelling or at least relatable main character is pretty much Fiction 101. I also find it kind of funny that you mention Shakespeare after Lucas tried so hard yet failed so spectacularly at portraying a star-crossed forbidden love.

You use the word "efficient" like it's a WIN!-button. You also say Star Wars is a fantasy adventure story. I'm not sure these two descriptions belong on the same side of any argument. But okay, let's talk time and efficiency. Never mind that the main character should be the focus of the story and therefore get the most screen time. Never mind that a well written character can jive with the audience without treating them like idiots even with a limited time in which to do so (as in short stories, short films, etc). If more time is needed to establish Anakin's importance in a better way, then perhaps Lucas could have saved some time by having:

less wooden romance and romantic dialogue
fewer spaceship landings and takeoffs
less cartoon Artoo and looney battle droids
less politics and deliberation
less walking/sitting and talking in general
shorter lightsaber duels
fewer lightsaber duels
shorter chases
fewer chases
less Obi-Wan Kenobi: 1950s detective
fewer nods and rehashes of OT lines, imagery, and situations because this was supposed to be new Star Wars

...you get the idea.

Plus, we have an entire movie in which Anakin is 9 years old and is not developed at all. So why was time such an issue that cheap and "efficient" tropes are needed? Because it should not have been. If the prophecy is the solution to a problem, that problem was still caused by bad writing and editing.

For the record, I'm not entirely against the prophecy as a trope. Samuel Vimes has already cited some examples in which it is used in various interesting ways. I will add my personal favorite use, in Dune. In the book, the main character is believed by the people to be their savior according to their prophecy. But it turns out that the prophecy is a fake, planted into the population by a clever and influential faction thousands of years prior for the sole purpose of future exploitation. The main character does knowingly exploit this prophecy and its believers--by fulfilling it.

On topic, I don't think it's technically a retcon, but I hope the prophecy is not mentioned. Vader's actions alone should be plenty to make him stand out for the next generation. I also hope we see some new and unexpected stuff with the Force, given the movie title. Again, probably not technically a retcon, though.

 

What I've said all along is that if ROTJ were to be taken as the end of the story then the celebrations would certainly indicate that the war was essentially over and the Republic would be restored sooner than later, but as part 6 of 9, it can just as easily be viewed as a celebration of the death of the Emperor, and the greatest period of hope that the galaxy has seen in decades. But as was the case with say, Iraq, that doesn't necessarily mean things will actually get better any time in the near future.

 

Samuel Vimes

Tru that Lucas doesn't spend a great deal of time delving into the Prophecy, but this just how Lucas approaches almost everything, for example, there isn't much time spent explaining the Force - it just is.

Lucas tells the audience as much as they need to know about things and just moves on.

Lucas also wanted to cause friction between Anakin and the Council - they don't like his attitude, etc. but are forced to put up with it because he is the "Chosen One", can't exactly kick him to the kerb.

Just because Anakin never mentions the Prophecy in the movies doesn't mean we can't suspect it has had a part in his growing ego. Yes, Palpatine's influence and his own growing power could have been sufficient in there but the Prophecy is there nonetheless.

As you said yourself - very little time is devoted to the Prophecy - a few lines of dialogue in the Council scenes and that is it. And it is used to great effect to show us more of Kenobi and Jinn's relationship. TPM doesn't need to expand in the relationship between Obi-Wan and Anakin, because Kenobi is driven to campaign to train the boy because of his devotion to his master and not any affection or connection with Skywalker.

It is much more imaginative that the friendship between the two started as such a matter-of-fact "hello" rather than some spectacular action sequence or some big drama.

And the Prophecy doesn't "telegraph" Anakin's eventual redemption in RotJ any more than the Bespin revelation "telegraphs" his fall in RotS.

Number_5

A "WIN!-button"?

What does this mean?

 

But the exact nature of the Force and how it works isn't important to the plot or characters. The prophecy is. It informs the actions of the Jedi, it supposedly has an effect on one of the main characters, Anakin. So it is rather more important. Again, the Matrix film or Harry Potter did more with it thus it was interesting. Here it is just tossed out there.

Given how much questions there have been about this, who really ordered the clone army, who is Sifo-Dyas and so on. I'd say that Lucas would be served by being a bit clearer. Also the EU is frequently used to explain things in the films.

Are you talking about TPM or RotS? In TPM they scolded him for missing his mother, very normal to me and they rejected him because or that and that he was too old. In RotS, they act needlessly hostile towards him. They are forced to put Anakin on the council and they don't like that. But that was Palpatine's doing, not Anakin. Also they want Anakin to spy on said Palpatine and they know that Anakin is close to Palpatine and considers him a friend. A little more delicacy was needed there I think. To me, it came across like the council and Mace in particular had to acts like **** just so that Anakin would resent them and make his turn easier.

Had Anakin just been very gifted and by the time of RotS he was this big war hero but his behavior was getting worse. The council argue if they should kick him out but since he is so popular in the eyes of the public and has done so much good work, that this could backfire. Obi-Wan is also placed in a difficult spot, he has to defend Anakin to the council and he can even vote against expelling Anakin. This would again make Anakin's betrayal hurt even more.

Since it isn't mentioned and you agree that Palpatine's influence and Anakin's own ego would be enough then it is redundant. You can remove it and nothing changes.

It is also the bits about midis, the blood test and all that. If Anakin was just very gifted and strong in the Force, all that would be unneeded. Also, Anakin is born with no father, that is kind of odd and I would think that science would have an interest in this person. How did this happen, what are his genes like?

I don't think it is used with great effect at all and Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon's relationship wasn't anything special. Obi-Wan is the obedient apprentice, he occasionally questions his Master but quickly submits to him. I think TPM did need to build the relationship between Anakin and Obi-Wan because that is one of the most important relationships in the PT. It is a friendship that turns falls apart and turns to hatred. To me, it would have greater dramatic impact if Obi-Wan really did believe in Anakin and was willing to risk expulsion over him. Rather than just a promise to his dying master. That would make Anakin's betrayal hurt even more.
As it is now, AotC starts of with the two of them seemingly not being able to stand each other. So I didn't see two friends which reduced the drama for me. Had TPM showed the friendship starting and developing then it might have worked better.

The friendship between Han and Luke started quite simply. Han was just some pilot that they were going to be traveling with. And Luke and Han didn't get along at first. But we see how it grows and develops.

[/QUOTE]

It does to me, you don't spend this much time to set up a prophecy only to go "Oh wait, forget what I said, there is no prophecy." Anakin will kill the Sith and he will turn back. Padme's final words also telegraph that.
Bye for now.
Mr "Insert-Name-Here."

 

How is the Force less important than the Prophecy?

What is so unclear about the Clones and Sifo-Dyas? Palpatine is obviously behind it all.

Both. It does not matter whether getting promoted to the Council was Anakin's doing or not. The friction is still there.

And the hostility is really only from Mace - through the whole trilogy and TCW too. He doesn't trust Anakin and doesn't like that nothing can be done because of the Prophecy.

And it doesn't make Anakin's fall "easier" - when it comes down to it Mace does believe in him (ironically he is wrong to do so ) and Anakin only kills him in desperation.

For a moment I thought this "vote" was something in the movie I had missed not your alternate take.

Such an occurrence would be the Jedi betraying Anakin - why is that needed? Anakin is the one who betrays the Jedi. Not the other way around.

Forced to put up with Anakin's behaviour because of the Prophecy is more interesting.

No, I said "could be" not the same thing. Plus, we would lose a lot of very cool stuff later in TCW.

It Star Wars. Everything is odd.

Star Wars is a fantasy. The "science" of a virgin birth is not important.

Again, without these, we would lose a lot of very cool stuff later in TCW.

It is used to great effect - the scene where Jinn is so eager to see Anakin trained that he is willing to push Kenobi away, ad the later reconciliation. Small moments but important.

And Kenobi doesn't "submit" to Qui-Gonn , he apologizes. And he is willing to risk expulsion to train Anakin - he tells Yoda he will defy the Council to teach him.

Where in AotC are Kenobi and Skywalker "not able to stand each other"?

Yes, both friendships start in an everyday kind of way AND both are different. It would be boring if Obi-Wan and Anakin in TPM behaved the same as Luke and HAN in ANH.

Mr "Insert-Name-Here."[/quote]

If you watch RotJ first you'll know - other than that it can be viewed as the Prophecy failing. Someone watching the movies one to six isn't going to automatically assume that Anakin will ultimately turn good in the end because of a Prophecy plot line or the dying words of a character.

 

Hoggsquattle you said Qui Gonn was willing to push Kenobi aside to train Anakin? I think you'll find Kenobi was ready for the trials to become a knight at that point. Qui Gonn says it, and Obi Wan believes he himself is ready. Hardly, "Ok, p*** off Kenobi, this kids the Chosen One and I'm gonna be the one to train him. One of the other Masters can deal with you now. Go on, off you go"

 

The post was long and I was not wanting to get too bogged down it - I didn't mean Qui-Gonn was flicking the bird - what I had intended on pointing to was was the manner in which Qui-Gonn did it. Watch Neeson's and McGregor's reactions - Obi-Wan surprised, maybe a little hurt, Qui-Gonn's eyes quickly glance in the direction of his Padwan and he kind of stiffens. The Council reacts too - his urgency surprising them with his "bad form" towards his apprentice. This leads to the argument on the landing platform and the reconciliation on Nabboo before the fight.

 

Well i guess they should remove the celebrating at the end o f ROTJ special eds and eliminate them altogether and leave the celebration on endor as a "won the battle but not yet the war" party. That takes care of episode 7 exisiting.

 

No, they won't do that and it won't be necessary. It will all fit together.