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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Retrospection on Iraq--The war's buildup, execution and justification

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by PeacefulJedi, Apr 24, 2003.

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  1. J-Rod

    J-Rod Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 28, 2004
    The torture happened, I'm tired of people making excuses.

    Yeah, and I'm tired of people exagerating it. It isn't a black and white issue. Every army in evry war always has and always will use torture. It cannot ever be any different. Ever.

    The point is to have policies that stop it when it is dicovered. We do that. It cannot get any better. Ever.

    If you believe otherwise you are wrong and have no understanding that the military is made of people, not robots, often very young, rebelious people.

    So it will happen. There is nothing that can be done to stop it. Nothing. Ever.

    The best you can do is prosicute those that do it.

    We do that.

    Dilly, have you always had access to "up-armored" humvee's?
     
  2. DarthDilly

    DarthDilly Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    May 22, 2005
    "Also, simply because Saddam used torture that makes no excuse for torture methods used by the US troops."

    I agree, so see my previous post. While on the sunject however, I did read an op-ed piece where the author, prolly writing through a veil of tears of indignation, tells of how, in Guantanamo (my spelling prolly sucks) a female interrogator stripped to a thong and esentially gave "a devout muslim" (read: islamofacist woman hater) a lap dance. (sound of crickets chirping) Dude. Imagine if in all the wars we fought, this was the method of "torture" used by our enemies? Battle of the Bulge, 1945: "Well, here we are, in the Ardiennes, with no gloves, coats, or clean socks." "Y'know, the Germans torture POWs with naked female lap dances." "Happy ending?" "Maybe."
    "WE SURRENDER!"

    Another sob story was how a female interrogater rubbed what she called "menstral blood" on a detainees cheeks and threatened to shut the water off in his room. Okay, gross. But torture? I'm sure, if in the Hanoi Hilton in the 60's, if a North Vietnamese officer took John McCain and said "you have two choices! Either a severe beating with bamboo poles....or menstral blood will be rubbed on your cheeks, and you can't wash it off!" "uh...I'll take the blood."

    Abusing the Quaran: bad idea. I'm against it. Lap dances? Dude.


     
  3. DarthDilly

    DarthDilly Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    May 22, 2005
    Most of my platoon had uparmored humvees from the get-go. My team, at first, had a regular armored humvee retro fitted with home made armor. We called it "Shrek" (big, green, and ugly.) After a few months we got the real deal up armored ("Shrek 2")
     
  4. Jediflyer

    Jediflyer Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 5, 2001
    Lap dances? Dude.

    To a strict follower of Islam, I think this would seem just short of rape rather than a fun night out.

     
  5. J-Rod

    J-Rod Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 28, 2004
    Hmmmm...so very different from the stories we were hearing around election time...

    I'm glad you made it back safly Dilly, it is an honor to post with you!
     
  6. Loopster

    Loopster Jedi Youngling star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 26, 2000

    I just think that the torture has happened in Iraq and Guantanamo, things have been done to correct it (hopefully) and we should just leave it at that.

    People always try to play it down by comparing what was done with what Saddam did etc. It makes no difference.

    Accept it happened and move on, but don't make excuses.

     
  7. DarthDilly

    DarthDilly Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    May 22, 2005
    "To a strict follower of Islam, I think this would seem just short of rape rather than a fun night out."

    Probably also to a strict follower of Christ. Or Judaism. Zorasterism (sic?). But then again, some of the "strict followers of Islam" also think women who aren't coverd completly head to toe, or are out in public without a male relative escort, or are actually raped, or have an independent thought, should
    be killed "to keep the family honor."
     
  8. Loopster

    Loopster Jedi Youngling star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 26, 2000
  9. DarthDilly

    DarthDilly Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    May 22, 2005
    Y'know, I am really completly against torture. I just can't seem to care if some scum bags are "humiliated" by naked women. Maybe I'm wrong about that. How would I feel if given a lap dance by a man? Actually...(what happens in Ft Dix, STAYS in Ft Dix) Seriously, though, it would be humiliating to me if I were given a naked lap dance by another man as a form of persuasion, but it's still better that than alligator clamps, bamboo slivers, ect. I dunno. If I'm mortally wrong on that, hopefully God will forgive me.
    I'd like to thank everyone who has supported the troops over in Iraq and Afghanistan. It's appreciated by all.
     
  10. Jediflyer

    Jediflyer Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 5, 2001
    DarthDilly, there is a big difference betwen offending a persons deeply held religious beliefs by just going about your day and purposely using them to break a person.

     
  11. DarthDilly

    DarthDilly Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    May 22, 2005
    Jediflyer, could be that you are right. But is it really torture? Is it at all justified? I would say it's not torure, and it is justified, but I really am just a simple man, and maybe the morality of this is beyond me. I'm glad those kinds of decisions are not left up to me. Let better folk than I decide.
     
  12. J-Rod

    J-Rod Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 28, 2004
    To a strict follower of Islam, I think this would seem just short of rape rather than a fun night out.

    Cop-out.

    Several of the 9/11 pilots were at a strip club on 9/10. And they were strict enough followers of Islam to fly planes into buildings.

    What we have here is people who weren't bothered at all by those interagation tactics. So they had an easy time in the interrogation room and got to raise a big fuss about it.

     
  13. DarthDilly

    DarthDilly Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    May 22, 2005
    Good point J-Rod. Crisis of conscience averted. Returning to normal smart ass function.
     
  14. Loopster

    Loopster Jedi Youngling star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 26, 2000
    Whether or not it is torture can be debated, but the Geneva Convention specifically states that:

    1.Persons taking no active part in the hostilities, including members of armed forces who have laid down their arms and those placed hors de combat by sickness, wounds, detention, or any other cause, shall in all circumstances be treated humanely, without any adverse distinction founded on race, colour, religion or faith, sex, birth or wealth, or any other similar criteria.

    To this end the following acts are and shall remain prohibited at any time and in any place whatsoever with respect to the above-mentioned persons:

    (a) Violence to life and person, in particular murder of all kinds, mutilation, cruel treatment and torture;

    (b) Taking of hostages;

    (c) Outrages upon personal dignity, in particular, humiliating and degrading treatment;

    (d) The passing of sentences and the carrying out of executions without previous judgment pronounced by a regularly constituted court affording all the judicial guarantees which are recognized as indispensable by civilized peoples.


    It's against the Geneva Convention for the treatment of prisoners to give them a lapdance for the express purpose of humiliation.
     
  15. Osama_Wan_Kenobi

    Osama_Wan_Kenobi Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Apr 30, 2003
    I fear no mere lap dances or religious awkwardness. Nor do I fear their consequences on each other.

    Sign me up for the interrogation!
     
  16. J-Rod

    J-Rod Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 28, 2004
    Sign me up for the interrogation!

    [face_laugh]
     
  17. DarthDilly

    DarthDilly Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    May 22, 2005
    Loopster- I guess the Geneva convention wins it. Still, I am suddenly proud to have, accidentally though it may be, steered this thread onto the legal/moral merits of lap dances as interrogation devices. And my guidance councillor said I'd never amount to anything.
     
  18. Loopster

    Loopster Jedi Youngling star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 26, 2000
  19. J-Rod

    J-Rod Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 28, 2004
    (c) Outrages upon personal dignity, in particular, humiliating and degrading treatment;

    That's the part that needs to go away. That's the part that treats war like it is a game.

    LIVES are at stake! People are dying and God help us if we embarrass somebody.

    That's crap, and I spell it out better in the Human Rights thread. Go look at my last post there, if ya want.
     
  20. Osama_Wan_Kenobi

    Osama_Wan_Kenobi Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Apr 30, 2003
    If a flush of a Koran or a lapdance will end the conflict sooner, then so be it.

    There indeed are lives at stake; religion and personal beliefs comes secondary.
     
  21. J-Rod

    J-Rod Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 28, 2004
    There indeed are lives at stake; religion and personal beliefs comes secondary.

    Ahhh...but this war is being fought on 2 fronts:Military, and the fight for the hearts and minds of the Iraqi people.

    If they fear or hate us, it will be nearly impossible to win this war.
     
  22. Osama_Wan_Kenobi

    Osama_Wan_Kenobi Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Apr 30, 2003
    That's true. You caught me thinking about how great it would be if all the fighting stopped in exchange for lap dances.

    The chances of that happening are unfortunately doubtful. The hearts and minds of the Iraqi people have been sucked into a culture void. Their dictator is gone, Americans are viewed as Christian crusaders, people are being tortured with lapdances; the Iraqis are scared and confused. They are having trouble reforming a culture that is beyond Saddam-era but also independant of America.

    To get the bad guys, we need to make this war seem less like a holy war, or better yet, have the Iraqis win the war themselves.
     
  23. Hungry_Ghost

    Hungry_Ghost Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    May 8, 2005
    At the start of this thread, PeacefulJedi said: In many ways, this was the first truly modern war. While the first Gulf War introduced some new technology into the battle field and into our homes, it was still an old-fashioned war in some ways. Gulf War II used a quick battle plan mixed with advanced technology to achieve the war plans. Reporters were embedded into the actual battle units and broadcast reports in the midst of battles and other events. The Internet played a part in things as well. And so on with other aspects of the war.

    Here's an interesting article on this subject: Iraq: the wrong war. Excerpt:
    The ongoing war in Iraq is, indeed, a new type of war, in which all kinds of new technologies ranging from sophisticated satellite based systems to mobile phones and internet are used. But if we are to understand the war in ways that are useful to policy-makers, then its novel character should not be defined in terms of technology. What is new about the war needs to be analysed in terms of the disintegration of states and the changes in social relations under the impact of globalisation.

    A distinction between ?old? and ?new? wars is vital. ?Old wars? are wars between states where the aim is the military capture of territory and the decisive encounter is battle between armed forces. ?New wars?, in contrast, take place in the context of failing states. They are wars fought by networks of state and non-state actors, where battles are rare and violence is directed mainly against civilians, and which are characterised by a new type of political economy that combines extremist politics and criminality.

    More than two years and 20,000 casualties (mostly Iraqi civilians) later, any assessment of the American war is bound to be sober. I argue in this article that the United States viewed its invasion of Iraq as an updated version of ?old war? that made use of new technology. The US failure to understand the reality on the ground in Iraq and the tendency to impose its own view of what war should be like is immensely dangerous and carries the risk of being self-perpetuating.
     
  24. Hungry_Ghost

    Hungry_Ghost Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    May 8, 2005
  25. Gonk

    Gonk Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 8, 1998
    (c) Outrages upon personal dignity, in particular, humiliating and degrading treatment;

    That's the part that needs to go away. That's the part that treats war like it is a game.

    LIVES are at stake! People are dying and God help us if we embarrass somebody.


    Funny, LIVES were at stake in WWII and nobody on the allied side had a relative problem upholding (c) then -- unless you were a German in Russia or of an 'unclean' ethnic group in Germany.

    Please explain to me how lap dances, Koran degredation (although I think Muslims going nuts over the degredation of a BOOK -- any book -- is over the top a la Salman Rushdie), naked parades and the like are somehow more like to break a prisoner than the use of something like truth syrum, which seems to be permitted under Geneva.
     
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