Return of the Basher's Sanctuary

Sorry, George, it's sad that TPM was your chance to continue the greatness, instead you relegate characters like Threepio and Obi-Wan, to the background. It's sad that in Threepio's case he can't take part in cool lightsaber duels to get his moment.

Bingo. Obi-Wan was nothing more than window dressing in TPM, which is odd, considering the prequel trilogy was supposed to be about his relationship with Anakin. We don't really get to see Obi-Wan's character until Episode II, and that's far too late in the trilogy to make us care for him. Man, AOTC was bad enough, but even if the OT didn't exist, TPM was still just a total waste of time in the series. The real storyline doesn't begin until the second chapter. Instead, Lucas tries to cram a hundred characters and millions of CGI shots down our throats without much relevance towards the other Star Wars films. Qui-Gon Jinn was my favorite part of TPM, but that's just because Liam Neeson is an excellent actor. Why does Qui-Gon even exist? Obi-Wan and Anakin barely exchange words until the very end of the movie. If Obi-Wan had to be an "apprentice," couldn't Yoda have been his instructor, LIKE IT WAS BLATANTLY STATED IN TESB? Yeah, yeah, Yoda teaches the "younglings".... whatever. Another contrived explanation to make the prequels work...

As far as Threepio goes, being built by Anakin is mental hogwash. While I agree he's been nothing but a background character just so Lucas can say he was there, I almost wish they would have just held off on introducing him until Episode II, so he could have been introduced properly.

 

"I find it odd that there are no drink references in the PT, except the bar scene in AOTC. The OT had plenty of them, if I remember correctly."

There were definitely a few. Hell, there were even HOOKAHS in the OT, fer cryin' out sideways! Ben was originally supposed to be smoking one in his hut in ANH, Jabba had one in ROTJ, and then they put that little Rasta lizard in the ANH:SE puffing away on his little hook'...

 

I figure if this is the night for old things made new again, then this is a good night for me to start posting here under a new user name. Many of you have known me first as BlackPool and then as the MasterofAllSith. Now I am Sesshoumaru. Why? because I really like this character from Inu Yasha obviously.

Anyway, congradulations, Quix on a great opening post to start us out on. Though I will miss the old Sanctuary, I have high hopes for this one.

As for Hookas, I know Ben puts it to his mouth at least once in that scene.

Oh, and to keep my post on topic, I wish I had never seen TPM.

 

Oh, yeah, back in the good old days, before Lucas got bit by the PC bug.

Now it's all anti-drug and anti-drinking.

Well, on that note, I'm off.

Lady Sami

 

It felt strange seeing a line right through the last Bashers' Sanctuary, like something great has been lost.

But this will be a fresh start, and Quix, great job on laying down all the rules for us.

[image=http://www.blueharvest.net/images/set/tat/alec-birth.jpg]

A TO
AST!!

EDIT - Mark-up codes, I give up on you. You made me look bad on my first post in this thread. That's bad luck!

 

Oh, yeah, back in the good old days, before Lucas got bit by the PC bug.

Now it's all anti-drug and anti-drinking.

"Wanna by some deathsticks?"

Worst line ever, spoken by the worst named character ever (Sleazebaggano?)

 

Well, this is the new Sanctuary? I guessed the new author too! I knew it!

Question: Where is the old Sanctuary located?

EDIT: By the way, very funny last posts guys. And very thorough opening post Quix!

 

Congratulations on the new Sanctuary! I'm looking forward to many happy hours lurking here.

 

Hey guys,

I just wanted to grace the new sanctuary with my presence. This thread is definitely anointed (and I should know)!

P.S. The prequels suck (my official first post bash)!

 

Yaay! I made the credits of the old Sanctuary!

 

Quix-
This is the essence of the Basher's Sanctuary - it is a gathering ground for folks who were less than charmed with the prequel trilogy thus far. It is a safe haven where frustrations with the films can be aired and discussed without character assassinations, disinvitations to the forums, and an atmosphere of respect. It is a place where we can discuss the elements we feel work well and work poorly, a place where we know we can disagree, but where we know our opinions will not be mocked, ridiculed, or vilified. In short, a Sanctuary from the slings and arrows of militant fandom - from those who cannot accept that "fans" can like and dislike aspects of a saga, just as fans of football can like the team but dislike the defensive line.

Well said , Quix. Hear hear.
----------------

Episode VI
Why We Bash

Well me at least.

TPM wasn't much good. At the time I made excuses for it :
It's just an introduction.
It's for the kids
it'll seem better after ep.2
etc.
And then I saw ep.2. And that WAS much better, but it stands on a crumbling foundation which is TPM.

I realised I could excuse George's other follies - Ewok movies, crappy cartoons, Howard the Duck etc. But TPM is a SW movie, it's the first part of a 6 part saga, it's the official story, the real deal.
So it's no good saying 'it's just another movie', ignore it; it will forever be associated with the other SW movies.
It benefitted from the association, and so it's right that we judge it on those terms.

I can't help but feel that the new films are missing something, a quiddity that drove the relationships and the characters. I find it hard to root for the "heroes" of the prequel trilogy, I find it hard to believe that these films exist in the same universe. I like parts of them, but find them to be a far cry from the Original Trilogy.

I agree. For me the PT characters are weak. really weak!
when I watch the OT the characters are driving the story, and I feel involved, the suspension of disbelief is achieved because these characters are 'alive', and so I'm carried along.
In the TPM it's as if the characters haven't been finished yet, they're wearing the wrong clothes and reading someone else's dialogue.
Lucas may use the 'invisible director' technique for his shots, but he becomes all too visible by his lack of characterization, it feels as if Lucas is there pushing the characters about to be where he needs them. And so suspension of disbelief is rarely achieved and I'm not carried away.
He just hasn't gotten inside his characters.

And there are other problems...
but we have plenty of time.

g

PS - Sam in Bewitched was hot. I mean.....[Homer]MmmmmmSammmmBewitchedmmmm[/Homer]

 

I didn't make the credits and I'm very disappointed. As a major contributor of nasty, negative, and derogatory comments in the sanctuary, I think I deserved to make the closing credits. Oh well, maybe next time...

 

"For me the PT characters are weak. really weak!"

If Lucas were making a documentary and we were watching clips from it, the PT would be pretty good. It would still have flaws, but it wouldn't be too bad. The only thing missing from the PT is a narrator.

A good story teller has the ability to make his audience identify with the characters so that when there is tension, we feel the tension. When there is dilemna, we feel torn. When there is conflict, we take a side. There is a lot of tension, dilemna, and conflict in the prequels, but I don't feel it or care about it.

Particularly in prequels, it is more important to make an audience care about the characters because we already know the basic outcome. Lucas is going through the motions when he is making these movies and I'm just going through the motions when I watch them.

 

As mainly a lurker in the old Sanctuary, I thought I'd take the time to chime in here at the new "digs" and make my presence known.

I've been a Star Wars fan for as long as I can remember.

Everything else was secondary. I made it a point to watch at least one of the OT movies at least once a week, and that was at a minimum. I never really minded the SE's for the most part, however there were a few scenes that always bugged me. (see the Greedo, Jabba and Jedi Rock scenes in particular) Other than those blatantly horrendous few moments, the SE were no big offense to me. Heck, I even liked most of the <Gasp> EU!

Along comes TPM. Great googely moogely! A new Star Wars movie! At last! Hallelujah, oh happy day.

And then I saw it. I left the theater with a slightly empty feeling in my stomach...Maybe I expected too much?!?! Maybe I'm just looking at the old movies through the fond memories of childhood and nothing can equal those standards!?!?

I go to the theater 6 more times...

I finally manage to convince myself that it's all ok. Jar Jar bugs, but he could be worse...Although I don't know how now...But it's all ok.

I was spoiler free for Ep.I...I think I'll go all out for Ep.II...After all, I've convinced myself that no matter what, as long as it's Star Wars, it's all good. Spoiled rotten and I go see Ep.II.

Same empty feeling in my stomach...But I deny it.

Now I just don't know what to expect. I don't even really care about Ep.III. Of course I'll go see it, but...The empty feeling that started with TPM has now extended to Star Wars in general. I have all my collectibles packed away in storage tubs and am debating on selling them on Ebay. There are parts of TPM and AOTC I like a lot, but overall. Well, Quix summed it up basically with "Meh".

What could have been...[sings]Meeeemories....of the way we were[stops singing]

I really wish they would have started Ep.I with Anakin's age being what it was in Ep.II...

I really wish Anakin hadn't built 3PO...

...No, what I really wish is that I still felt a thrill for Star Wars and not this empty feeling.

Ep.III: Help us ____, you're our only hope.

Who can fill in the blank? Who indeed?

 

Wampa Joe wrote: "If this is Return of the Basher's Sanctuary, does that mean the thread is going to be infested with Ewoks? Because if it is, so help me God..."

I expect Rabid Balding Ewok to be showing up right about now.

 

Ahhhh, fine Corinthian Leather!

A ride so smooth you can perform a Bris in it.

The all new 2003 Basher's Sanctuary from TFN, Quixotic Sith and a bad movie known as The Phantom Menace.

The Place Bashing was meant to be...



EDIT: No offense was made by the above post. In fact it comes from another source. Can anybody name it?

 

What I find the most disappointing about the PT is how much freedom Lucas has & how he is wasting it. Every director working would kill to be Lucas' position. He can make a film any way he wants & does not have to bow to the pressures of a studio or executive. However the results have shown that Lucas has no clue what to do with this freedom. Stanley Kubrick was one of the few film-makers to have this kind of freedom & he was notorious in striving to get something right. For the life of me I can't see how Lucas thought that a lot of the scenes in the PT were good enough to print. I think that Lucas was really just interested in making a digital movie. Everything seems to have taken a back seat so that the ILM gang could do whatever they felt like.

I think in AOTC there are 2 really good scenes & they both involve Ewan MacGregor. Obi-Wan & Jango as well as Obi-Wan & Dex. In both cases I think Ewan the actor was given something to work with from an acting standpoint. In the Jango scene both characters knew the truth yet they chose to go along with the other character trying to slip them up. With Dex we see they are old friends.

So I think the acting can work with the CGI but only when Lucas sees the necessity. I don't find any scene in TPM as good as those 2 from AOTC, so I think Lucas is improving but I don't expect AVBE to be much better than what we have seen so far.

 

Another commentary concerning old issues for the benefit of new and MIA Bashers (and lurkers) joining us.

One scene sets ANH (and the OT) apart from TPM...

The binary sunset.

One scene that can show so much. Bear with me as I use it to launch into this post...

While I'm not one for Lucas copying scenes/situations from the OT, I will say that he could have tried to copy the emotion/the feelings from it.

We see Anakin as a slave, we see his irritation at being called a slave, we hear him say he wants to get off Tatooine.
I realize one point that could be said is that this is a little boy just shooting his mouth off with no real understanding of what he's talking about, but Lucas makes a point to have us believe Anakin is living an existence, not a life.
We have to beleive in his situation and identify with it, in the end, hating it, so we can root for him to overcome it.

Anakin does nothing else after his "slave outburst". He goes home with his strange buddies, he shows off his "toys", he gets a bit ridiculed by his slavemates, but he has friends like Wald & Kitster.
Anakin really doesn't live an existence, he's obviously well treated and his "emotional scars/baggage" seem non-existent.
Anakin doesn't do anything on his own that gives the feeling that even though he loves his mom, he really wants to be a Jedi, knows it, and he really wants to do something with his life...

Luke, even though the circumstances are different, suffers on the same planet, but worse, he is living an existence.
Luke is living in a lousy situation, no friends (Biggs and Tank left), no chance to better himself (No Academy), no opportunity to make his dreams real.
He doesn't even get an opportunity to show his skills, like Anakin, we learn he's a good pilot, but we don't have any proof to believe he's THAT good (Like Anakin was a great Pod Racer with large scale "media" exposure at the end!), we have friend comments and second hand rumors. On Tatooine, where he's at, being a good pilot means little to such a big galaxy.
Luke's a good guy, in a "loser" situation.

Luke has one scene, that while some could say it's "boring", it really sets the character apart and sets him up, he goes outside and he stares at the suns... The binary sunset.
He's daydreaming, imagining a future he will realize, but not in a way he planned.
This scene is referred to in TESB and it can even be used to contrast him from ANH to ROTJ.

With Anakin, we get the "I want to see them all" scene with Qui-Gon discussing the stars and it has little meaning because...
A. It's just a kid running his mouth again. We don't get any real sense of feeling. I think the acting/directing is to blame.
B. Based on the OT existing first, we know that Anakin is to become Darth Vader. The line is little more than a little ironic joke. He'll "see them all" and be responsible for the enslavement of them.

Any other comments from Anakin regarding "wanting to" or "dreaming to be a Jedi" has all the weight of a child saying they want to be a fireman or a police office when they grow up, this doesn't sound like a boy having "visions" of becoming a Jedi.
These "visions" are serious, Qui-Gon even makes a point to use them as a basis that Anakin IS Force sensitive, but we don't get any sense from Anakin that they are "real".
When the fans did buy into them, Lucas discards them... "I came back and freed the slaves."

I understand the character is a child, but Lucas let the emphasis go on the wrong parts.
He should have let the child show through during the action and let the serious emotional and heartbreaking moments appear when dealing with the Jedi and his future, only to push it to the "max" when Anakin leaves his mother and home, because that is a human reaction.
Give a sense that even though Anakin has his fun, he knows that he can't be a slave forever, that it's only temporary, he knows he's going to be a Jedi.
Doing this would make his anger at Obi-Wan in AOTC, much more compe

 

Woo hoo! The sanctuary lives again. With this technological terror we'll establish a New order of bashing. muwahaha (Just kidding, really!)


Anyway, when TPM was released I was determined to like it more than anything. Regardless of all the bad reviews I had heard, I just automatically assumed that I would love it as much as the old films. For some reason, I didnt think the criticisms and the bad reviews were actually reflecting what was in the movie. I mean when a review said that Darth Maul wasn't in the film for long enough, I just figured that he was in the film for a decent amount of time, and the critic was just waving around complaints.

Of course I actually saw the film and Maul was in it for literally five minutes! Jar Jar Binks really was irritating, the middle section of the film bored me to tears, and the space fight at the end looked like such a poor cousin to the Death Star battle in ANH that I momentarily thought I was watching a Star Wars rip-off!
Even after I saw the film, I still told myself that it was "good". If my friends asked me what the new Star Wars film was like, I would tell them that it was "good".
I just couldnt bring myself to say that I didnt really like Episode 1.

Anyhows, during christmas '99, I saw The Matrix on video and thought to myself "ah bugger, Star Wars is screwed!"

I decided there isn't much point pretending to like Episode 1 if I really didnt like it. Even if it was the almighty Star Wars.

The problem is that I really think that TPM has stuffed up the rest of the prequels. AOTC would have been a better film if it didnt have to re-introduce Anakin again, the romance would have had a better grounding if Anakin had been 16 yrs old or something in TPM.

When I heard Rick MacCallum describe how Episode 1 would introduce us to an 8 yr old Anakin (This was way back in 1997/1998), I figured the first part of Episode 1 would resemble Richard Donner's Superman i.e. Anakin would be introduced as a kid, and the film would flash forward in segments and then show him as a teenager and eventually as a young adult. While it may not have been very Star Warsy to have flash-forwards, I still think the film would have been a massive improvement if it had ended with a teenage Anakin being taken under the wing of Obi-wan rather than ickle Jake Lloyd.

 

--Jawa--

I feel the same way you do. I saw TPM multiple times in the theater as well, it wasn't too hard to get caught up in the hype and excitement of a new SW movie, I waited 16 years (or so) for it!
I only saw AOTC 3 times due to opening night, a DLP presentation of it and seeing it with my family separately.

I have the DVDs, but I got them for the extras and to watch the action scenes/visual effects 'cause I'm still into that for the artistry and the technology, I can't watch many of the "character moments" of TPM except for scenes with Shmi, Palpatine or Qui-Gon. I still like Qui-Gon even though I realize he took the spotlight away from Obi-Wan, I liked his attitude "I will do what I must.".

I have many SW OT collectables packed away and lot of TPM stuff. Many I want to sell because I can really use the money, but many I'll keep because they are personal, rare, or really expensive.

Here's an example... and my view on collecting now...
I'm collecting the Master Replicas of the OT lightsabers.
It's simple, I loved the characters of Luke and Vader!

I won't buy the reproductions of the PT sabers, those characters just don't mean the same thing to me... Obi-Wan vs. Dooku, Obi-Wan vs. Maul, so what!
Those were fight scenes, they don't have the impact the OT duels had, Qui-Gon's death is little more than a pale imitation of Obi-Wan's demise (Ooh, the mentor is killed!)... Obi-Wan and Alec Guiness's portrayal of him means more to me as a fan, so I'd spend the money.
Ewan's been doing a good job, but not enough to spend that kind of money on a licensed prop!

I'll buy an Anakin saber from AOTC when it's made as a completist, so I can have the complete Skywalker line of sabers, but it won't mean as much as my Luke ANH reproduction, because I like Luke much more.

I have bought AOTC stuff, but only if it's really cool, like the R2-D2 figure that has sound f/x!

I'm still following the SW comics EU, but I could care less about the PT stuff like REPUBLIC, unless certain creators are involved, it's going through the motions of setting up the Clone Wars cartoon and Ep.3 as well, nothing groundbreaking or new.
I'm still collecting it because of my completist nature, so I am part of the problem, but I have spoken up with dissatisfaction about it with the creators online.
I am enjoying EMPIRE, great art and the current Biggs Darklighter storyline isn't violating the films... It's good EU!

No, SW doesn't have the impact it used to for me, but being here actually makes me stay involved with it because of the sense of honest community and to see the latest Ep.3 tripe to be released, I don't get upset as much, I now find it amusing (I'm sure George does! ).

In the Basher's Sanctuary, there is no garbage, I don't get the feeling most people will come here to bash for fun or for "coolness" (though it's happened),but most bashers have to know their SW (and/or movies, directing, writing skills) too much
to come here for a goof, we take bashing seriously, sometimes.

I'll admit Quix's opening seems to make this thread less social in nature... I hope it can still remain social, instead of "business like" gripes having to be inserted into posts, I don't want to sound like a PT character!

Okay, that was another long post... I think I wore myself out yesterday on the funny, short posts before the last Sanctuary was locked forever. Sorry!

 

That was a great post Punisher. You are so right about Anakin & Lucas. For many people the greatest moment in the OT is the binary sunset scene. Luke didn't have to say anything, the acting & the music gave us all we needed to know & we felt for Luke. In ESB when Yoda talks about looking to the horizon you can immediately think back to the scene & realize he is right about Luke being a dreamer. There is nothing like this in the PT, & if there was imagine how out of place it would feel. Or worse, how Lucas would screw it up. You know there would have to be cgi in the background, probably in the forground too. After all we have to show the audience in every frame that we are in a different galaxy.

There is also nothing that makes me sympathize with Anakin. Compare him to the kids in The Sixth Sense, E.T. or even Home Alone & I think Lloyd falls dreadfully short in earning an audience's emotion. Despite what gushers say, seeing the happiest boy in the galaxy turn into Darth Vader is not ironic. It is sloppy writing & poor directing. You constantly hear the excuse "what do you expect from Lloyd he acted like a kid?" So what? Because he acts like any other kid that makes his story more special? In the films I mentioned the kids had some kind of pain that everyone can relate to. They showed emotion & they put on a brave front when faced with challenges. Anakin seems oblivious compared to these kids & I think Lucas has to shoulder a lot of the blame. In the other films each kid is a nice, sensitive, smart kid that you would like to know. I know Lucas wanted that for Anakin & I think they fell dreadfully short in portraying this.

 

Hey, Quix.

That was a fine introduction. Thanks for taking the time to set the ground rules.

I'm thinking about starting a "bash" thread soon. When the time comes, I'd like some feedback as to where it should go.....and I'd like participation from both sides (ie. bashers AND gushers).

Now everybody....go play fair.

 

Just an observation...

As the old Bashers' Sanctuary drops into from the first page, I can't help but think of the funeral for Spock from "ST2:Wrath of Khan" as the coffin/torpedo trundles down the launch tube and the sound of "Amazing Grace" by bagpipes plays...

Probably one of the best Sci-Fi/franchise funerals besides Vader's funeral pyre in ROTJ....
Since this is the TPM forum though, I expect Yoda and Mace to talk about the Sith as the Sanctuary fades into oblivion!

People complained about the lack of emotion when a character dies in SW, what about the lack of respect the head Jedi show for Qui-Gon by running their mouths to set up the Palpy/Anakin pan?

I'll tell you, it would be odd to see Mark Hamill dressed as Luke standing on a bluescreen set "watching" the sunset.
At least, Lucas didn't CG the Homestead in AOTC, but he could have...

 

I approve of all the nice things said about the binary sunset.

 

About the Indy 4 script:

"It's up to us to maintain the integrity of the project. That's why it's taking a long time on the script. We want the story to be good enough."

This is why the prequels are so bad. GL is not taking his time with the script and he's not even a good script writer. What do you think Speilberg would say if Lucas approached him with the same attitude that he has about the prequels and suggested that he write the script and the dialogue with no help and finished the script two days before shooting?

Anyone who doesn't see that no care is going into the story for the PT is blind. The sad thing about it is after a while the special effects will be dated and then there will be nothing special about them at all.