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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Speculation Return of the empire

Discussion in 'Archive: Disney Era Films' started by jimslendorn, Jan 5, 2013.

  1. ForceJumpAnakin

    ForceJumpAnakin Force Ghost star 4

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    Dec 24, 2006
    Yeah if somebody left the clone switch in the ON position in Kamino.
     
  2. Lando's Little Maneuver

    Lando's Little Maneuver Jedi Padawan star 2

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    Nov 26, 2012
    It depends on what happened after RotJ
    1. The old republic became the empire, so does the empire revert back to the new republic?
    2. Or does the rebel alliance become the new republic and continue laying into what remains of the empire?
     
  3. jimslendorn

    jimslendorn Jedi Youngling

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    Jan 5, 2013
    logically that makes sense but how can you turn rebuilding the republic into an interesting story for people who are not die hard star wars fans
     
  4. Darth Chiznuk

    Darth Chiznuk Superninja of Future Films star 8 Staff Member Manager

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    Oct 31, 2012
    In my example, I think an all out battle royale between the competing factions would be pretty interesting to see. However, having battles for the sake of battles isn't good enough for Star Wars so that is why I think the Republic and characters should face the moral complications of uniting a galaxy dead set against unification. This allows for a lot of drama and tension between the characters who could be on opposing sides of the debate. I have advocated for this type of storyline in other threads because I think it is the most natural way of continuing the story beyond 1 through 6.
     
  5. Jedsithor

    Jedsithor Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Oct 1, 2005
    The problem is, that's a story that begins straight after Return of the Jedi, not 40 years later which is when the ST will be set (give or take 5-10 years) if any of the original actors come back and if they don't, well you can't tell that story without them anyways unless you recast, which I don't see happening.

    The Empire ruled for...what...24 years? In the final four years of Imperial rule, the Empire faced a meaningful rebellion. By the time of the rebels first victory against the Empire, 20 years after Palpatine declared himself Emperor (or was it 19 years...whatever), the Empire had risen, destroyed the Jedi, instituted a full military dictatorship with garrisons in almost every system and basically had 90% of the galaxy under their complete control with the other 10% being made up of Hutt Space and corporate interests, both of which had deals with the Imperial leadership and backwater planets that the Empire didn't care about. It took them maybe 5 years, 10 at the most and that's pushing it, to consolidate their power.

    Even if you allow for a longer time for the reverse to happen, it's not going to take 40-50 years to restore the Republic.

    The thing is, whether you go by the EU and Old Ben's 25,000 year Republic or Lucas' 1,000 year Republic, the period of Imperial rule is a drop in the ocean. If Darth Bane knew that his grand plan would result in Sith rule for a measly quarter century, he'd have said "screw it" and gone off to play golf on the Naboo grasslands for the rest of his life.
     
  6. Jedsithor

    Jedsithor Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Oct 1, 2005
    I think they need to come up with a really good reason to continue in that general time period. If they can't I think they should either go back to the beginning and tell the story of the Jedi-Sith war that started everything or jump way into the future to a galaxy that isn't tied to the Skywalker saga.
     
  7. jimslendorn

    jimslendorn Jedi Youngling

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    Jan 5, 2013
    Theres no way producers will allow them to make a star wars movie without a skywalker showing up somewhere
     
  8. Jedsithor

    Jedsithor Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Oct 1, 2005
    Well if they do a story set long after the Skywalker saga, Luke can show up as a Force ghost or hologram.
     
  9. Darth Chiznuk

    Darth Chiznuk Superninja of Future Films star 8 Staff Member Manager

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    Oct 31, 2012
    But Palpatine rose to power from inside the Republic. The military dictatorship is already in place by the time of Episode III with most of the systems already under the Republic's (which by this time basically means Palpatine's) control (with the rest coming under his control with the end of the Clone Wars) and the Jedi were wiped out in one fell swoop (with a little mop up duty of course). There was already a structure in place for Imperial rule (the Senate, the Regional Governors, the military) and all Palpatine had to do was declare himself Emperor. Whereas the Rebellion is a small coalition of planets fighting against this huge military machine. Of course the battle of Endor is a crippling defeat for the Empire but I think it would take much longer for the Rebellion to mop up the rest of the Imperials than one might think. We're talking about an entire galaxy here and I could see many small factions coming to power in the vacuum left by the Empire. The small coalition that makes up the Rebellion would of course reinstitute the Republic after their victory but I could see them as one of many small powers struggling for control. By the time of the ST the Republic would probably be the most powerful of these factions but the galaxy would still be divided.
     
  10. Jedsithor

    Jedsithor Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Oct 1, 2005
    Ah but you're assuming that in order to win, the rebels needed to achieve a full military victory over the Empire. This is not the case. In fact that would have been pretty close to impossible. The fleet that attacked the second Death Star was pretty much the bulk of their space force. If they lost that battle, the rebellion was over. The entire fleet was there, the rebel leaders were there - it was a last throw of the dice for them. The Star Destroyers at the Battle Of Endor made up a relatively small percentage of the entire Imperial Fleet. The Rebels could never beat the Empire militarily. But that was never their plan. It was never a war for territory. It was a war for hearts and minds.

    You think that the Empire kept fighting after the destruction of the second Death Star. Some probably did. Some regional governors probably dug in for the long haul. But the rebel victory is actually explained in two scenes in A New Hope. The first is when Tarkin announces the dissolution of the Senate. We first hear that the rebellion is gaining support in the Senate before Tarkin breaks the news. He's asked how the Emperor will maintain control without the bureaucracy and Tarkin explains that the regional governors have been put in direct control over their systems and that fear of the Death Star will keep the systems in line. This tells us two very important things.

    First, it tells us that for all his power and military strength, the Emperor still has to work to keep the people in line. The longer the rebellion goes on, the more sympathy it will gain, the more people it will attract to its cause. For all the power in its main battery, the Death Star was a weapon of fear. The threat of annihilation was the Emperors weapon to keep the people in check and stop them from rising up against him. He kept the Senate around for 20 years until he was in a position where he didn't need them to deal with the population anymore. The second scene is the destruction of Alderaan and the conversation between Tarkin and Leia.

    "The more you tighten your grip, the more star systems will slip through your fingers." - Princess Leia

    That right there is the basic concept of the Rebels ultimate goal. Keep fighting, keep shouting out and showing the people that they don't have to fear the Empire. Tarkin responds that once the Death Star's power is known, nobody will dare to oppose the Emperor or the Empire. Which brings us back to the Death Star being a weapon of fear.

    Fast forward to Return Of The Jedi. The Rebels throw all their eggs in one basket. They have one chance. Destroy the second Death Star and the Emperor along with it. What good will that do? Kill Palpatine and Vader, his presumed heir, and then what? What do you do about the rest of the Imperial fleet? Nothing. And that's the point. By destroying the Death Star and killing the Emperor, the Rebels succeed in their mission to show the galaxy that it doesn't need to be afraid, that it can stand up against tyranny and win. Cut to the Special Edition of Return Of The Jedi. What do we see? We see planets from all over the galaxy and on these planets the people are rising up in the millions. And most telling of all, we see it happening on Coruscant, the very heart of Imperial rule. What are the Imperial fleet commanders going to do? Bomb the capital? What we see in Return of the Jedi is basically what we saw in Egypt. The Empire loses complete control. It has a huge fleet but it exists in a galaxy full of people who refuse to be oppressed by fear anymore. The fact that Endor doesn't get bombed during the celebration is very telling.

    Can the Imperials try to regain control? Sure. But who gives that order? Vader is supreme commander of the fleet and he's dead. The Emperor himself is dead. There's no Senate to keep order and the governors are being overrun by millions of people. Before the Imperials can fire a shot, they have to figure out who's in charge and that's more likely to lead to civil war within Imperial ranks before any retaliation against the Rebels can be organised.

    I've gone on a bit of a rant here and I apologise. It just amazes me that three decades after Return of the Jedi, the fate of the Empire is still up for debate. A lot of that is down to EU. As much as I appreciate the Thrawn Trilogy, it's really not a viable follow-up to the events of ROTJ. And the reason is because the Empire is never actually defeated. Not in the traditional military sense. The people of the galaxy basically decide they don't want to live in an Empire anymore and so the Empire becomes a Republic again. It doesn't happen overnight and there are factions that refuse to engage and have to be dealt with but ultimately the only way forward is democracy. The Galactic Empire and the New Republic aren't separate factions, they're the same thing. The Imperial fleet becomes the Republic fleet. Imperial leaders probably make deals to try to retain their positions or at least not face war crimes tribunals. Some resist but they're doomed to fail.

    The only way the Empire returns is if the restored Republic allows itself to become an Empire again and I don't think that's on the cards.
     
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  11. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    Which is what Marvel Star Wars does- initially. The Thrawn Trilogy started with about a quarter of the galaxy remaining under Imperial control- after the infighting between the various would-be successors to the Emperor is over.
     
  12. Zuckuss the Ruckuss

    Zuckuss the Ruckuss Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 5, 2013
    They absolutely will, but not out of the gate.

    I think the next trilogy could be the end of the skywalker saga.

    Afterwards, Disney will make new trilogies based on completely different characters/timelines.
     
  13. Zuckuss the Ruckuss

    Zuckuss the Ruckuss Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 5, 2013
    Yep, which is exactly why you need to "up the stakes" with the enemy. You got to give a reason to even deal with the Skywalkers or tie the next films to the existing narrative.

    Especially if this is to be the end of the Skywalker saga.

    Doing a story revolving around societal reconstruction and faction conflict is exactly where I think Disney is not going to go. That sounds too close to inverted prequels. I guarantee Disney wants no part of that.

    I expect its going to be pretty much black and white for the next trilogy. Especially if the general motif of the next trilogy is largely "spiritual."
     
  14. Darth Chiznuk

    Darth Chiznuk Superninja of Future Films star 8 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Oct 31, 2012
    I wasn't assuming anything and I certainly wasn't trying to get into a debate about the status of the Empire in ST. My original post was in response to another posters ideas for the ST and I was simply giving my own. I agree that the end of ROTJ shows a popular uprising against the Empire and have even argued that point in other threads. However, an uprising against a tyrannical regime does not mean the galaxy immediately comes together and agrees on the best course of action. I think our own history shows that the exact opposite usually happens. By ROTJ the bureaucracy of the Old Republic has been swept away and since the old government wasn't exactly the perfect model for how a functional republic should be run anyway, the galaxy will basically be starting from scratch and that is going to take time and not everyone is going to agree. Take the French Revolution as an example where a popular uprising removed the monarchy and replaced it with a democracy. Was that the end of the story and did everyone live happily ever after? No, the country went through decades of social upheaval, constant political changes, and almost non stop war.

    In my opinion which you are certainly allowed to disagree with, I believe the galaxy is going to take a lot longer to heal itself than a few years. I think it only strengthens the PT and the OT storylines to show that the galaxy is not yet recovered from the devastation that Palpatine and Vader inflicted upon it and at the same time it connects the characters of the two trilogies with the storyline of the ST. It keeps Palpatine and Vader relevant to the new trilogy without resurrecting them. The Emperor's evil legacy still hangs over the galaxy. I can see many planets throughout the galaxy not wanting anything to do with a New Republic (like I said the Old Republic wasn't exactly a utopian society) and aligning with other likeminded planets and forming their own factions. I can see a similar situation to fall of the Soviet Union where many criminal organizations took advantage of the chaos and rampant corruption. I can see the criminal organizations in the GFFA taking advantage of the vacuum left by the Empire's defeat to expand their operations. I can see fugitive Imperial agents selling off their technology to many of these different factions and creating a really unstable galaxy. What I'm saying is that I would like the galaxy in the ST to be a melting pot just getting ready to boil over.

    In the end I think for us to be arguing over a timeline that hasn't been established yet is a bit silly. The writers can take the storyline and the galaxy into whatever direction they want. If they want a fully established New Republic in the ST then that is exactly what we'll get. If they want a galaxy still divided and a New Republic struggling to unite it then they can make a situation where this makes total sense. I have outlined a way for this situation to occur and it didn't take me very long to do so. A very talented writer with the time to develope his story can create a completely believable and compelling storyline where the Republic is still in rebuilding mode. I just think this is the best way to continue the storyline presented to us in the PT and OT and make the ST a crucial part of the overall saga instead of an epilogue.

    I guess this is where we disagree because I see Disney embracing the entire saga instead of one half of it. I also see the writers taking the story in whatever direction they think best connects the three trilogies together. I've said it before and I'll say it again, I don't think great art starts out with the artist being afraid of upsetting people.
     
  15. Zuckuss the Ruckuss

    Zuckuss the Ruckuss Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 5, 2013
    But I don't really understand how "up the stakes" doesn't fit thematically when put into the context of the existing films:

    a)PT trilogy dealt with a villian of deception

    b)OT trilogy dealt with a regime ruling the galaxy with an iron fist.

    b)ST, hypothetically, would deal with enemies that want to destroy the galaxy outright. Whatever it may be.

    Look, at the end of day, there is no reason to make a film after Return of the Jedi that pertains to the Skywalker story. The ending was good enough. So, if your going to bring that arc back, you have to give a dramatic reason.

    Considering Star Wars is pulpy, swashbuckling affair: I would assume that is where its going to go.

    Doing a film about rebuilding a society is largely boring in a film context(for a Star Wars film). It could be very interesting stuff for a TV series. But I don't think its interesting stuff for a 2 and half hour movie.

    Doing factional conflicts just reeks of costume political melodrama, which sounds like prequel territory. I don't think Disney is going to take that approach. They want to bring fun back to Star Wars.
     
  16. Darth Chiznuk

    Darth Chiznuk Superninja of Future Films star 8 Staff Member Manager

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    Oct 31, 2012
    I don't think you need to "up the stakes" to make it a compelling storyline. You don't need to try and one up the villains of the previous installment because I don't think it usually works out well. Just having well written villains that bring something new to the table is enough to make them compelling.

    I find Star Wars most interesting when it is not so black and white. Personally I don't find an ancient evil/invading force that interesting because it has no connection with the events of the previous two trilogies. I want to see the repercussions of Vader and Palpatine's actions and how the characters overcome them to rebuild.

    If this is indeed a continuation of the story after ROTJ then like I said it must connect with the other two trilogies to make one cohesive whole. This is why I believe the ST needs to be about the restoration of the Republic because that is how you bring the entire storyline which starts with PT full circle. The PT is the fall of the Republic, the OT is the fight for freedom, the ST is the restoration of the Republic.

    But this is only my opinion and I'm certainly not asking you to agree with it.
     
  17. SithLord_1270

    SithLord_1270 Jedi Knight star 3

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    Nov 5, 2008
    No
    No. There may be small slices of the Galactic pie in their control.....mmmmm....pie.
     
  18. Frankakin skywalker

    Frankakin skywalker Jedi Knight star 1

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    Dec 13, 2012
    Or why not explore before the PT? As me and darklordoftech have stated before, it is possible they could make a spin off movie about the Old Republic.( and i mean Old Republic) Also Disney has stated that they will make movies just about the characters. Or this just occurred to me: Legacy movies, anyone? There are millions of years to explore in Star Wars yet Lucas film has just made like 40-50. However episode 4 wa sthe beginning of the Star Wars universe because there was nothing Star Wars before that. So the saga is the most important time. So what you're saying Darth Chiznuk is like a see-saw, it gos up and down.
     
  19. Zuckuss the Ruckuss

    Zuckuss the Ruckuss Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 5, 2013
    Well, I was thinking of something. Perhaps Chiznuk and me could be both right. What I mean is he likes the idea of recontruction. I think the natural progression of the enemies is grander and more lovecraftian.

    Perhaps its a merger of the two? What I mean by that is in the PT trilogy, the characterization of the republic is thats too large, ineffective, impersonal, and gullible. It then gets morphed into an Empire, with its entire senate getting dissolved.

    Perhaps, one of themes of the next trilogy could be, "why do you even need a republic? Why do you need government?" Perhaps the galaxy, at the opening of the next trilogy, is autonomous. The galaxy could be largely self governing, with planets having very little to do with one another. Which could make it ripe for sub characters to largely exploit that(gangsters, criminals etc). Since there is no overarching policing force.

    Perhaps part of the journey of the new films, is to rally most of the key planets in order to fight this major menace. But I don't see a major conflict between inter factions being the main focus at all. Perhaps a subplot.
     
  20. LandoThe CapeCalrissian

    LandoThe CapeCalrissian Jedi Youngling star 3

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    Dec 30, 2012
    Screw the Empire, I wanna see hundreds of Sith battle hundreds of Jedi on Korriban.

    Like a scene from Lord of the Rings when they battled at Helms Deep, but with lightsabers, advanced machines and blaster fire. Something epic, not another lame Captain or Admiral casuing trouble with 4 star destroyers under his command.
     
  21. Zuckuss the Ruckuss

    Zuckuss the Ruckuss Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 5, 2013
    I think a grander version of the Jedi/Sith conflict is something that will be done in films outside of the Skywalker Saga. I could very easily see an Old Republic trilogy playing into that very idea.
     
  22. SoWizard

    SoWizard Jedi Master star 1

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    Nov 20, 2012
    Look, let's stop pretending that the main enemy isn't going to be the Sith. They will be back in some capacity you can count on that.

    We don't need the Emperor to be cloned for the Sith to come back. In Lord of the Rings or Harry Potter when the main villian's physical form is destroyed he comes back in some way whether it be the use of Voldemort's horcruxes or Sauron's spirit becoming the Eye of Sauron.

    Palpatine doesn't need to come back in a physical role right away, he can be some sort of wraith or negative energy. And who knows what he is capable of in this form? If a Jedi can guide characters as a force ghost then a powerful Sith could totally tempt and pry characters.

    It's not too hard to imagine that a powerful Sith such as Palpatine with all the time he spent safely in power with Vader doing his dirty work could have found a way to live on after death. A Sith's legacy is based on the power that they gain, it's not unlikely that Sidious would try to outdo the powers of Plageuis. "He could keep others from dying, but not himself"

    Besides, what the hell was that blue **** that shot out of the hole when Vader tossed Palpy in? Some sort of energy it looked like. I don't know, they could work with that.

    P.S. Anakin's force ghost fighting Sidious's force wraith, HELL YEAH.
     
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  23. LandoThe CapeCalrissian

    LandoThe CapeCalrissian Jedi Youngling star 3

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    Dec 30, 2012
    I agree... I wouldn't mind seeing elements of the old republic in this trilogy but it must have epic lightsaber battles between Sith and Jedi...

    Not 1-2 sith but many, different aliens, great makeup and costumes, and the Jedi finally looking completely badass on screen...
     
  24. Zuckuss the Ruckuss

    Zuckuss the Ruckuss Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 5, 2013
    Yeah, I don't really the Jedi/Sith dichotomy is going to be a major presence for 7,8,9. Perhaps a riff on it. I think that Jedi/Sith angle has already been played out in that story arc.
     
  25. Corvax855

    Corvax855 Jedi Master star 3

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    Jan 23, 2011
    I could see there being some old imperial sympathizers who (like Soviet sympathizers in Russia today) want to see a return to the "good ol' days". Perhaps they could team up with, or unleash whatever the new threat is, thinking it will help them in their goal, only to be betrayed by the new threat who has far bigger aspirations. That would be quite ironic.

    But as far as the Empire returning to full strength with Star Destroyers, Death Stars, and Stormtroopers? No way.