Saga RETURN OF THE JEDI VS. REVENGE OF THE SITH

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Darthman1992, Oct 16, 2011.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. icqfreak Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 7, 1999
    star 4
    Funny enough, these are my top 2 films in the saga, with rots first, and rotj second.

    However I feel you touched upon a subject that merits it's own discussion in another thread perhaps. The idea that both films are often rated by nature of association to the other two films in their respective trilogies. I think it most applies to ROTS though. You almost always hear of the prequels as a whole in a negative light, not just the first two.
  2. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    I don't like how the politics of the PT were handled. It was never convincing and often I downright didn't understand why people acted the way they acted. Often their actions made no sense at all (case in point: Valorum or the Trade Federation and sometimes the entire Senate) and seemed to only serve the purpose of giving Palpatine his power. That's part of what I meant with Xanatos roulette. One sensible decision of one of the mayor players and Palpatines plan is doomed.
    In hindsight the politics remind me of those in the Clone Wars series. A very simplistic model that doesn't much resemble real politics. I guess that's okay for popcorn movies, but calling it "Caesarian" or drawing a paralell to Hitlers rise is like comparing apples to oranges. To me at least. I certainly don't watch ROTS because of the "great" politics.

    Yes, there's some complexity to Anakins fall since his obsession for Padmé might just be another smokescreen to hide his real motivations. His total hunger for control and his inability to let go of it. Partially caused certainly by his slave upbringing and his youth in the temple where he didn't have any control of his own life. People always desire what they never had. His hunger for control an power drives him and it is what makes him fail in the end.

    Or you can view the Emperor as suffering from Megalomania. He's suffering from intense paranoia and in that state he strikes even at those closest to himself (Vader). He has so lost it to his madness he can't think straight anymore and this results in the many, many blunders he makes in ROTJ. He can't conceive of his own failure anymore. I find Palpatine very interesting here. I also find Vaders decision very interesting to ally himself with a boy he barely knows against the only "friend" he had for like twenty years. Palpatine was pretty much the only person he could talk with, the only person he had. But he still chose his son.
  3. DRush76 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2008
    star 4
    I don't like how the politics of the PT were handled. It was never convincing and often I downright didn't understand why people acted the way they acted.


    It made sense to me. In fact, I saw a good deal of real life similarities in the past decade or so.
  4. obi-arin-kenobi Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 10, 2005
    star 3


    I finally watched the Sith blu ray last night and couldn't agree more. It is quite fascinating--one of the most overlooked story elements of the pt. I think most older fans tend to gloss over it as they already had their version of how things played out.
  5. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    I don't even know where to begin.

    Why the senate doesn't agree to help out Naboo but agree on voting Valorum out of office - the guy who is controlled by both the TF and the bureaucrats who would therefore have a vested interest to keep him in office!
    Another question: Why is Palpatine voted chancellor whith the TF and the bureaucrats being against him? Okay, Palps might have bribed/convinced the TF to stand down but how did he convince the bureaucrats ("the people who hold the real power in the senate")?
    Why didn't Valorum react to the accusations? How did he become chancellor in the first place if everything he does is standing around like a statue?
    Why would the senate agree so readily with freaking Jar-Jar Binks? You'd think if the powerful parties were so interested in the war they would use another innocent looking figurehead before Binks even gets the chance to stir things up.
    WTF the "grand army of the republic". How comes nobody investigated that properly? Like one of Palpatines opponents?

    Just how much money does Palpatine have for the purpose of bribery? Is he as wealthy as Lex Luther or what?
  6. obi-rob-kenobi4 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 17, 2007
    star 4
    ROTS is the better film imo. Even though i have a new found appreciation of ROTJ i think ROTS is just too perfect and too enjoyable on too many levels. As the new york times once said "Episode 3 delivers!". A short and to the point way to sum it up i think.

    Although i must say that i do think ROTJ gets too much of a bad rap, it does have drama and it does have great twists that are clever imo and tie up the loose ends with a clever bang. I think ROTJ has plenty of deaths to keep suspense, yoda dies at the beginning, boba fett dies (or at least gets temporarily defeated;)) jabba the hutt dies, darth vader dies, the emperor dies. I mean sure some of them come back as force ghosts at the very end but they are still dead.

    As for character development, we have the luke and leia twist that they must reconcile with and the han solo/lando reconciling where he lets him know he is forgiven for the betrayal in the last movie, he does trust the falcon to him so thats very big. Its just all tied up very neatly and that is what i think people find "dull" i guess you could say. That and the fact that this movie has to live in the shadow of TESB witch is kinda unfair to jedi imho. But if anything i think it shows how good the character development is in that the gang has grown up and they realize that there is much more at stake with the final battle against the empire than there petty differences. It shows that they are not kids anymore.

    And of course all the scenes between palpatine, luke and vader are absolutely exceptional but that almost gos without saying.
  7. PMT99 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2000
    star 4
    But neither of them involve having the hero turn traitor and helping a master criminal destroy everyone and everything just so he could learn a death-defying power that can save his wife.

    As for the plot issues:

    A)Palpatine's whole plan depended on getting Anakin to become his apprentice. He knew the boy alot better than the Jedi ever did which is why he felt so confident that his plan would succeed.
    B)The whole "lying to himself" part is just one of the reasons why Anakin didn't suspect Palaptine as a Sith Lord. Another reason would be that he just doesn't care since the only thing that matters to Anakin is saving Padme. The fates of the Jedi Order, the Republic, and the galaxy mean nothing to Anakin as long as he has his wife alive and breathing.
    C)Obi-wan assumed that the fire would finish off Anakin. If not the fire, then the molten lava. Besides, a part of Obi-wan felt that Anakin deserved to be burned after what he's done to everyone.
    D)It's easier for either Yoda or Obi-wan to defeat Vader by themselves but when it came to Sidious, Yoda couldn't have Obi-wan around to help him eliminate Sidious. Yoda already sensed Mace Windu and 3 other jedi being killed off by Sidious and he feared that Obi-wan wouldn't fare any better then they did. Thus, why Yoda wanted to fight Sidious alone.
  8. Jedsithor Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 1, 2005
    star 4
    Obi-Wan had no reason to suspect that Sidious would arrive on Mustafar to save Vader. As far as Obi-Wan knew, Sidious was fighting Yoda and I'd think Obi-Wan would have been betting on the Jedi Master. I suspect that Obi-Wan didn't know of the failure until he met up with Yoda and Bail later on.

    As for Anakin not suspecting Palpatine, the Jedi didn't suspect him for years and when they eventually did they didn't consider that he was a Sith Lord. They may have simply thought he was working for the Sith. The Jedi were far too arrogant. Anakin had his own problems of course. We can look at the Opera scene and assume that Palpatine is talking about himself when he tells of the apprentice killing his master but we already know who Palpatine is. At this stage Anakin doesn't. To him, Palpatine is just a wise old man who befriended him and helped him to adapt to his new surroundings. Palpatine has been around a long time and when he starts talking about the Sith, it's reasonable to assume that Palpatine is a student of history and nothing more. When Palpatine starts talking about cheating death, Anakin is only thinking of saving Padme and any suspicion doesn't register with him. It's also probable that they have had many such conversations in the past.

    If I have a conversation with my friend about Hitlers rise to power, it doesn't mean that my friend is going to invade Poland.
  9. MrFantastic74 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 4, 2010
    star 4
    I thought ROTS was decent, but I rank ROTJ higher. It may just be nostalgia, but I enjoy watching ROTJ more than ROTS.

    I was at the perfect age in 1983 for the movie, and it was my favourite movie until I was a teenager. Since then, I've come to appreciate TESB and ANH more, but I still love ROTJ, which I believe is a wonderful closing to the saga.
  10. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Order 66 didn't depend on that.

    Hindsight is 20/20. At most Palpatine would come off like a Sith enthusiast as opposed to an actual Sith. At that point Anakin has no reason to assume that Palpatine has been trained in the Force.
  11. Alexrd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 7, 2009
    star 5
    No. Anakin offered new ways for Palpatine to realize his plan, but it didn't depend on him. What if Qui-Gon had never found him? My take is that he could have become Emperor with either Maul, Tyranus or Vader at his side.
  12. princethomas Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 19, 2001
    star 2
    For me its not even close. For me. Jedi is easily the worst of all 6 star wars films and Sith borders on being the best.

    The biggest issue with Jedi honestly is it isn't even a whole film. Its a similar problem that I think The Phantom Menace has, but even worse. Theres only about 25-30 minutes of stuff in Jedi that is of any consequence and the rest is just expanded nonsense. Now to some degree all of the Original Trilogy is like that. But it works perfectly in ANH and mostly well in Empire. In A New Hope, its a full hour before the Falcon goes into Hyperspace coming out of Mos Eisley. Half the movie to get the movie set up and in motion, but it works because the scenery and the filler stuff is all so good. In Jedi, its a disaster. Again, its pushing close to an hour before they get off Tatooine. And while the Jabba stuff/ Han rescue is cool. Its waaaaaaaayyy too long and too full of stuff that nobody cares about. Droids show up. Leia Shows up. Luke shows up. Slave Girl dies to Rancor, Luke Fights Rancor, R2 and 3po go through a ridiculous assigning of duties sequence. Luke Captured Han and Leia all prisoners.

    and then....

    They set it all up again out in the desert. Oh wait. Musical number. Finally we get to the escape/jail break rescue sequence.


    Now, I don't have any problem with Ewoks. I really don't. They are cool with me. And I like the general idea of primitive creatures stopping the overly complex sophisticated empire.

    But it takes sooooo damn long to get to anything of value with the Ewoks. Plus Harrison Ford parading around Endor like he's doing an SNL Han Solo parody. Worst acting by far of any Star Wars movie. "Hey, its me" The speeder chase is cool. Where's Leia? We got separated. Its a hat. You eat it. Wait Chewie its a trap. We're in a net. They're Ewoks, they think Im a god. Hey theres Leia. Tell them youll use your magic. Blah blah blah.

    There is just so much crap that is really really boring in Jedi.

    The saving grace of course is that it has some of the best stuff of the Saga. The Sail Barge fight is very cool. The The Ewok Battle is very cool. and then theres the Space Battle which is awesome. The Luke/Yoda/Obi-Wan Dagobah stuff which is great and off course, all of the Luke/Vader/Emperor stuff is fantastic.

    Ultimately it really feels like Empire and Jedi are one movie. And they really are. Empire Ends at the end of the Second Act and Jedi is really just a Final Act with a bunch of extra stuff. Somehow though Empire pulls it off.


    Another comparison I'd love to make is Empire to AOTC. Both are middle trilogy episodes. Which means you get the benefit of being able to do cool stuff and not worry about having to wrap everything up neatly. It also means they are saddled with the burden of doing a ton of set up work for the final episodes. I think Clones is Unfairly criticized because it has soooo damn much set-up to do while Empire gets the easy version. Because the OT is so thin on plot, Empire doesn't have to do all that set up work and just gets to be crazy fun.
  13. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    I think you mean you are cool with them.

    Unless you're saying that Ewoks like you.
  14. PMT99 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2000
    star 4
    If Anakin hadn't betrayed Mace, then Order 66 would've never happened.
  15. oierem Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 2009
    star 3
    I disagree. Everything was set up for the "revenge of the sith" and Anakin wasn't necessary at all. That's very interesting, because Palpatine risks everything (even his life) to turn Anakin, yet Anakin wasn't important at all! Why would he do that? ;)
  16. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    If Palpatine hadn't deliberately revealed himself as a Sith to Anakin, Mace wouldn't have been there in the first place.
  17. strawberryfields Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 2011
    Return of the Jedi. But ROTS is very good.
  18. Eternity85 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 24, 2008
    star 3
    I agree with alot of this.. Its seems like Lucas were very short on ideas in ROTJ; its just so much content that is there just to fill all the empty space, its very sad IMO. Because the throne room scenes are some of the best in the entire saga.

    However, im not very fond of ROTS either. I actually like ROTJ better. Strange maybe, but thats the way i feel..
  19. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 8
    Actually, in the longer opera house conversation in the novelization, Palpatine does mention having studied Sith philosophy to learn better how to defeat them. The EU also mentions that Palpatine's books on political philosophy were used as textbooks in major Republic universities even prior to Palpatine's being elected Chancellor.

    As the audience, we do have a lot of insight that neither Anakin nor any other character could possibly have, particularly since we know the outcome of all the PT characters already, having seen the OT.

    As far as Palpatine's plan depending on Anakin, I agree that it doesn't. Palpatine would have become Emperor with or without Anakin's help. Turning Anakin to the Dark Side was simply his way of giving the Jedi the finger, by recruiting their "Chosen One." Besides, recruiting someone as powerful as Anakin, meant that Palpatine did not have to do any of the dirty work in the OT himself.
  20. PMT99 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2000
    star 4
    Okay, I get that PalpSidious would've been victorious even without Anakin's help but Mace was already going to confront him before Anakin could tell him that Palps is a Sith Lord.
  21. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    That's true, but in an Anakin-free scenario Palpatine could just have issued Order 66 a little earlier.
  22. Darthman1992 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 17, 2011
    star 1
    I would just like to make it clear that I still really like RETURN OF THE JEDI and find it to be a fitting close to the Saga. A lot of people are making it sound like I hated it, which is not even close to the truth. Just comparing the virtues of both films, I just personally think REVENGE is better. (And honestly feel it gets a lot more flack than usual because it is a part of the Prequel Trilogy)

    I kind of thought that that by implication would be a part of the discussion. As I said I really like RETURN, but I do think it's initial polarizing reception was eventually skewed over time. At the very least due in part to its two predecessors.
  23. Grand_Moff_Jawa Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 31, 2001
    star 5
    Put it this way...

    I giggle at the serious parts in ROTS, especially Hayden's acting.

    I find ROTJ to be much less sincere than the rest of the OT.

    If I had to choose, I'd choose ROTJ, just because Hayden isn't in it (well, until the ghost scene anyway).

    I think Hayden's acting (or lack thereof) hurt the PT more than anything. But that's for another thread.

  24. bswb Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 2, 2000
    star 1
    My wife and I did a Blu-Ray weekend marathon of all six in episode order after staying away from the series intentionally for about two years (when the Blu-Ray rumors started) -- there's a thread up about a "cold viewing" that I made in this forum. This was a good way to try and eliminate previously held opinions, particularly about the PT.

    Of course, we viewed them as Star Wars episodes, but it was beautiful to enjoy them as unique cinema too. From a pure film perspective, I feel ROTS is just so much stronger than ROTJ. The main reasons:

    -Pacing: The pacing in ROTS is relentless. ROTJ pacing is all over the map, and the Endor pieces feel very disjointed. The FanEdit forum has a version that starts with Luke on Dagobah -- I only read a summary of this but it reordered the first half and cut a lot of Endor and the outline seemed a lot more sensible and tighter.
    -Cinematography: I remember a mainstream review of ROTS saying it felt (paraphrasing) like Lucas was in full cinematic bravado mode, and I agree. Visually, I think ROTS is the most stunning of all the films, and it has more to do with camera angles and movement more than quality of CG. ROTJ has the best space battle and the Vader/Luke duel is shot beautifully, but much of the camera direction feels run-of-the-mill.
    -Stakes/conflict: Everything is riding on the line here and there's very little padding in here. In ROTJ, I only feel engaged by Luke's story. I always felt like Han could have been "charming Rebel general #4" and the story really wouldn't have been impacted much. I understand the nature vs. technology theme Lucas wanted on Endor, but a lot of it feels like padding.

    One note about Hayden's acting (from another poster's point). If you've ever seen Shattered Glass, you know the guy can act. So why is his delivery so flat and cadence so awkward in Star Wars? Here's something I realized, and while I don't have any citation to prove it, I'm sure it's mentioned in some behind-the-scenes article or interview somewhere -- and it works every time I put it to the test in my head: he's mimicking the Vader delivery in the OT.

    When I realized this, I tried considering some of his more Vader-ish lines and imagining them with vocal distortion. It was a bit of a revelation, and I realized that the guy kind of got painted into an actor's corner. Had he talked totally different from JEJ, people would have bitched about how this guy sounds nothing like the Vader we know. If he imitates it, then he's doing monotone delivery in a weird rhythm. So he's basically screwed either way, and then adding in the rough AOTC romance doesn't help in public perception.
  25. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 8
    I had no problem whatsoever with Hayden's performance in the prequels, but in comparison to his other work, it's not as strong, I agree with that. Life as a House, for which he was nominated for a Golden Globe, is another example.

    Another factor working against him in Star Wars is that he was hired to play his specialty role of the angsty melodramatic teenager (see also: Life as a House), and many viewers did not want Darth Vader to have ever been an angsty melodramatic teenager. As far as the love story, it was intended to be a medieval courtly-love style romance as opposed to the more modern-style Han/Leia romance, and I don't think that's what people expected. I'm trying to envision how bad the audience reaction would be if Anakin had stood under Padme's balcony, watched her undress, and called "Wherefore art thou?" But Romeo of the Montagues gets no such reaction, even though he and Juliet were only 13.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.