Saga RETURN OF THE JEDI VS. REVENGE OF THE SITH

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Darthman1992, Oct 16, 2011.

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  1. -NaTaLie- Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2001
    star 4
    At least TPM can be excused by being the intro to the sage (if viewed in chronological order) while ROTJ as a closing chapter should have been much tighter. Also, with both of them, original ideas seem better than the final result.
  2. BoromirsFan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2010
    star 4
    I disagree about TPM.

    Most of the stuff in the film (imo) moves the plot along or is useful in explaining the characters.

    ROTJ has a plot that is stetched into 2 hours. It should have been shorter, there are long periods where absolutely nothing is accomplished.
  3. Cushing's Admirer Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 8, 2006
    star 7
    BF: Everything is a matter of personal perception. I completely disagree with you on TPM and RotJ. TPM is largely plodding, slow, filler that doesn't even mesh with the later chapters of the Saga it's supposed to spearhead. Jedi is a story about finding a way to overcome Darkness and redemption that is largely handled well.

    I love RotJ most of all six because it conveys the *point* of the whole saga. Whereas selfish love (Anakin's in ROTS for his wife) condemned the galaxy to misery; selfless love (Luke's for his father, despite everything in RotJ) grants Anakin redemption.

    I loved the *idea* of ROTS and I wanted to see it badly when it came out in 2005, however, the presentation and execution of the story was extremely lacking. They killed Dooku too early and in a very blase manner, what should've been an *iconic* part in ROTS, the confrontation between Vader and Obi-Wan on Mustafar, rings hollow, false, and fake. Thus killing nearly all emotional connection and tension for me as a viewer observing these characters. I do give McGregor credit though, he was trying with what he had. (Hayden probably was too but he always strikes me as either wooden or over exaggerated as Anakin.)

  4. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    This. Exactly. Hence my user name.

    OTOH I knew I was probably going to dislike ROTS before I even got the first spoiler, I just had no idea I would find the last half unwatchable.
  5. BoromirsFan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2010
    star 4
    Thats why I wrote (imo) because I am not trying to pose my opinion as fact.

    I disagree with you, but i respect your opinion :D

    I do think ROTJ is good but recent viewings made my stare at the clock, particularly during the Endor scenes.

    The greatness lies in the iconic Emperor scenes and the redemption.

    I hardly think the point of star wars is ewoks :D (I get the point though, the whole vader redemption)

    I think ROTS is just a better movie. But its my opinion.
  6. Cushing's Admirer Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 8, 2006
    star 7
    Anakinfan: Yeah, I suspected that may have been the cause of your name. Cool. :D

    BF: And that's fine. It's entirely possible that those that prefer RotJ over ROTS are drawn to/like different things. Which is fine. [face_peace]

    For me, I like the more philosophical side of RotJ because I like to ponder moral questions and their consequences. I suspect that many that prefer ESB and ROTS, perhaps even you, are bored with the 'thinking' elements and prefer the 'action, swordplay, conflict and such). This is also completely fine. I enjoy watching Maul and Dooku with their blades myself, but it's not love of violence or action, I love the agility, flow, and artistry of these characters' movements while at the same time acknowledging that the lightsaber battles are completely unrealistic. But they are *fun* to watch. I also really like the X-wing while not enjoying the fact it's a war machine.

    Also, I never much liked the Ewoks but I liked the fact they don't look Humanoid. Also that though they are small they are still *capable* beings.
  7. HevyDevy Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 13, 2011
    star 4
    I find Revenge of the Sith easier to watch. Like others have said, it's faster paced, although this can be both good and bad. I thoroughly enjoy Return of the Jedi though, but it can drag. The scenes on the Death Star II make the movie, but Revenge of the Sith has a lot going on more of the time. Anakin's turn makes more sense than the threat of Luke turning, I mean Luke was never going to turn IMO, he had far less reason to. Personally I feel Revenge of the Sith is the deeper movie.
  8. BoromirsFan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2010
    star 4
    It isn't the action that I feel seals the deal.

    I don't get much pondering or any sense of depth from ROTJ except from the dagobah scenes, Vader and Luke scene and the DSII Emperor, Luke and Vader scenes.

    Thats it.

    Those scenes are terrific, but the rest isn't nearly as interesting. Rescuing Han was great but then there's this whole lull where we are waiting for things to happen.
  9. Cushing's Admirer Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 8, 2006
    star 7
  10. BoromirsFan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2010
    star 4
    Yep! There is no bad Star Wars film from the main saga imo

    Ive seen such horrible films lately, It makes me wonder why people were so quick to label the prequels as crap.

  11. Cushing's Admirer Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 8, 2006
    star 7
    In some ways, recently, I've come to the same place. Films in general have been poor quality for the last years to me. It's quite sad, really. :(
  12. Alexrd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 7, 2009
    star 5
    As a whole, RotS is more enjoyable to me. But RotJ has some of my favourite scenes and sequences of the saga,so it's a tie.
  13. -NaTaLie- Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2001
    star 4
    I feel pretty much the same way. I've always loved DS II scenes, even before the prequels, but now they're probably my favorite in the sage. If you watch I-VI, the payoff is incredible!

    Unfortunately, aside from that and the space battle, the rest is pretty much a filler (Han's rescue was necessary and cool but too drawn out). There're a lot more problems with ROTJ, starting with the writing, but since it's not ROTJ sucks thread, I'll keep quiet. I can only say that the ROTS crew and cast (and Lucas himself) seem to be less tired of the franchise.
  14. drg4 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2005
    star 4
    That strikes me as a peculiar statement, since Revenge of the Sith and The Empire Strikes Back are far more meditative in nature than ROTJ.

    One of the misgivings I have with Episode VI is that Luke is too resolute through the majority of the film. He needed a bit of his father's anguish to ratchet up the drama.
  15. -NaTaLie- Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2001
    star 4
    Right, it feels like Lucas was too busy to keep up with his Zen or John Campbell reading.

    The only time he feels anguish is after escape from the Cloud City, hearing Vader's thoughts to him on the Falcon. ROTJ missed the chance to expand on that. Really, being the Galaxy's second worst villain's son shouldn't be an easy burden to bear.
  16. drg4 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2005
    star 4
  17. Cryogenic Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 2005
    star 5
    This issue, in some sense, is the fault of TESB, not ROTJ. Luke may feel a degree of anguish during the escape from Cloud City, but it seems to dissipate rapidly. When he hears Vader calling to him on the Falcon, he rises from his bed, war-wounded but stirred, responding warmly, but stoically: the supplicant Jedi. And while he calls into the darkness, "Ben, why didn't you tell me?", that appears, in large part, to be the full extent of his anger/upset. A couple of scenes later, he's getting his hand fixed up and trading pleasantries with Chewie; then he puts an assuring arm around Leia, the boy suddenly forced to take the position of Han Solo, the man, and the movie ends. I don't get the searing impression of horror from Luke's disposition; merely growth. But from another POV, it can be argued that ROTJ does show Luke bearing a burden, as he cloaks himself in black (the colour of mourning), and treads more lightly (on the whole), speaks now with a certain implacability, and believes it is his solemn duty to save his father's soul. Luke did mature between TESB and ROTJ; and the revelation of his parenthood -- inexorably convolved with the sobering discovery he'd been misled by elders -- is powerfully implicated in that.

    * * *

    Return vs. revenge? Why, who would want to compare such a thing! Revenge all the way, surely? For, isn't revenge a dish that is best served cold? And what a cool movie ROTS is. But I have great affection for ROTJ, also. However, out of the two, it's hard to argue -- for me, personally, that is -- against the astonishing visual design and poetic grandeur of Sith. Its very first shot, in my opinion, utterly trounces what Jedi offers up, beginning to end. And if you do just want to stick with the first thirty seconds of both movies, then just look at the difference: a few static masters versus a gorgeously dynamic, sweeping, layered, transporting epic of an opening shot. I mean, wow. AND THAT IS LITERALLY JUST THE FIRST SHOT! It's a stunning hint that ROTS will be full of bold, dazzling, uncanny, unreal, ultra-ambitious things; and it is. The litheness of Lucas' camera, and his audacious summoning of physical and digital technology both, helps, perhaps somewhat paradoxically, to enhance the film's gravitas; sell its seriousness. Order 66 is the real gestalt moment of the picture: it's dark and horrifying, but also light and enjoyable: sad, operatic, transcendent. There is no equivalent passage of finely-structured and beautifully-controlled montage anywhere in ROTJ; or, for that matter, in any of the other Star Wars films, either. The vistas, the tragedy of it all, Palpatine's dastardly scheming, and the decline of Anakin and his relationships, well... what more can one say? Amongst all of this, John Williams' vivid, Wagnerian score, while carrying the movie in so many ways, and even the scene wipes, which in density and complexity, blow away what's offered in all other five films combined, offer themselves up as the proverbial icing on the cake. And what a cake it is.

    But all cakes become sickly -- and imperiling to one's health -- in sufficient quantity. And like a magic elixir, ready to cure one's woes, and even to confer new sensations on its delighted drinker, in steps ROTJ. A film that is both childish and silly, yet rich and evocative, ROTJ is a movie of many shades. It wants you to take seriously how silly it is. And it wants you to see the silly behind the serious. It's an auspicious end; or, indeed, the end of the beginning. The Jabba palace sequence, while indulgent, is stupendously done. And as a piece of visual -- and aural -- mythology, this sequence is food for the heart and mind, with subtle flavours and great nutrition to match. For me, it is in this sequence, perhaps above all others, that Sta
  18. -NaTaLie- Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2001
    star 4
    I actually think a lot of ROTJ's problems come from TESB (blasphemy, I know!). The relegation of the Empire Vs. Rebels conflict to the background for Vader's search for Luke, for one thing. "There's another line" contributes, too. There was no time for Luke to search for his sister in one remaining movie so they had to make Leia his sister (I still wish they didn't do it and just left it open for potential sequels).

    Well, you need to end the movie on an upbeat note even if there's no big win for our heroes this time. However, Luke does seem to be pretty torn when receiving Vader's thoughts. As far as ROTJ goes, I think they overdid his cockiness in the beginning. He didn't go back to Yoda to complete his training and didn't receive the confirmation that he was a Jedi, so why is he usurping the title? Even Jabba calls his bluff :)
  19. Cushing's Admirer Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 8, 2006
    star 7
    Being resolute, especially in the face of overwhelming opposition is a strength of Luke's, not a weakness. I have always said I prefer RotJ because it is about redemption, faith, and selfless love. If people choose to think ROTS and ESB are 'more meditative' than RotJ, that's fine. It doesn't change my view that RotJ handles such issues better.

    I also prefer RotJ to ESB (especially) and even somewhat to ROTS because it's not as dark and gritty. Such tones do *not* hold any appeal for me when they appear to merely be dark for the sake of being dark. Which I feel is the case with ESB and ROTS and the presentation fails badly, particularly in ROTS. The scene we fans waited for 18 or more years--the epic confrontation between Obi-Wan and Anakin--falls flat because it's simply not credible as it's presented. I am unsure how much is due to wooden acting and how much is due to poor writing but I was *very* disappointed with Vader's turn. (Though as I've said before, I do believe and give credit to Ewan and Hayden for trying with what they had. But, I think Ewan pulled it off slightly better).
  20. -NaTaLie- Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2001
    star 4
  21. drg4 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2005
    star 4
    I disagree. For me, the ending of TESB suggests that Luke has learned to stake his salvation with the hearth of his surrogate family (i.e., Leia, Chewie, Han, Lando), rather than with the spiritual despots whom he mistakenly identified as mentor or enemy. The boy has become more human, more vulnerable, precisely because the high priests and vaunted father have been forcibly displaced; when he is to meet either Obi-Wan, Yoda or Vader, I could easily see the metaphysical fur fly.

    Also, when recalling the infectious intimacy between Luke and Leia, I can understand Lucas's decision to render the latter ?the Other?. Pity that ROTJ didn't better exploit this promising dynamic?-there was a beautiful story to be told, about a brother and sister escaping the shadow of their father.
  22. -NaTaLie- Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2001
    star 4
    ^^^ Oops, I meant to say "Battle of the Heroes".
  23. -NaTaLie- Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2001
    star 4
    Leia didn't even get a closure with her Dad!
  24. Darth_ChewyCharmy1 Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 31, 2002
    I prefer ROTS for a multitude of reasons, but mainly because ROTJ is the laziest and least imaginative film in the entire saga.
  25. ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2001
    star 6
    Folks, I hate to break this to you but VS threads are still not allowed.

    So, I'm going to lock this until further notice. The policy could change, but not yet.
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