Return of the Jedi

Ok.

 

I "May" have liked LOTR but with all these LOTR fanboys bashing Star Wars I say Screw it

 

I'm of the opinion that you can like both. The people who suddenly dislike Star Wars annoy me too.

 

Both can be liked. People are different. I have always like SW and I have never liked LOTR.

 

I personally like ROTK better than all of the PT and CT movies combined. Well, maybe not the CT movies, but I like it better than the PT so far. Moot point anyways.

Let's please stop the Tolkien bashing that is going on. If you want to go make a thread for that somewhere else, go ahead, but this is not the forum for that.

As for Lucas taking concepts from Tolkien, he did do that. However, Tolkien took a lot of his ideas from various mythological stories from countless civilizations and combined them all into one story. Since Tolkien based his stuff on various mythologies and SW is based on various mythologies as well, then it is quite concievable that Lucas and Tolkien used the same ideas. Wether he got it from Tolkien or did the research himself is irrelevant, as they are both based on actual mythologies.

 

Many of Tolkien's writings came from his experiences as a soldier in WWI. Main example: the dead marshes. The Ents came from MacBeth. Saruman came from Hitler. Just a few examples. Here is a post I made in SWC earlier:

Please, stop the idiocy of debating whether Star Wars is better than Lord of the Rings and vice versa. It is entirely possible to like both sets of films. Instead of contemplating which one is better, comparing them to each other, and suddenly hating one series that you once liked, enjoy both of them! If you don't like one, fine, that's your opinion of the films. But if your opinion is that the Star Wars Prequel Trilogy sucks now that you have seen the Lord of the Rings films, that is not a justifiable opinion.

I personally do not see how someone could claim to be a Star Wars fan yet hate the movies. I don't care if you like the Classic Trilogy or not, hating the Prequel Trilogy means you hate part of the story...and since most of those bashers are planning on hating Episode III, they would be hating three of the six films, and that is one half. How can you hate one half of something and still be a fan? I just have never been able to grasp that concept. Being a fan takes more than liking part of something and hating the other part.

Honestly, can't you all just enjoy both sets of films? I love both the Star Wars and Lord of the Rings sagas (like I said) and find it rather fruitless to make comparisons. Just enjoy them for what they are: fictional movies.

As for Episode III not being better than Return of the King...who cares? And how can you really compare them? Other than there being main characters and a battle, they're really not similar. Plus, Star Wars is a six movie saga and Lord of the Ring is just three. Obviously that is a rather large difference in the way the story is told. Star Wars takes place over a period of approx. 37 years, Lord of the Rings takes place over about 11 months. Also a huge difference.

But seriously...George Lucas' plan when he set out to make the Star Wars films was not to make them better than Lord of the Rings...anyone who thinks so needs to have their head checked. His goal never has been that, still isn't, and never will be. I'm willing to bet he honestly could not care any less whether people like Lord of the Rings better than the Star Wars films...all that matters is that people stay true to their Star Wars fandom, and many of you are failing miserably at doing so.

So I repeat: It is possible to love both stories. One won't think you're cheating on it if you like the other one too. True Star Wars fans would stay true to the series no matter if they didn't like the prequels as well as the classics or if they also enjoyed the Star Wars films. Its ok...go ahead and admit you think both are great.

Mmmkay?

 

Well...I guess this kind of fighting was to be expected, I apologise for starting the thread.

But I sincerely don't understand this. Are you all so close minded? I LOVE Star Wars, that's why I'm here, but I also love films in general, and I have no problems in saying that I also LOVE Star Trek, Lord of the Rings, Matrix, almost all of Spielberg films and even Titanic. I also happen to love, I don't know...L.A. Story. And the film in my signature. I don't think I'm less of a Star Wars fan because of that.

 

I think a lot of LOtr comes from WWII.

Mordor is Germany, the dark power rising again.

Gondor is England, the land of the kings. It is raided by Mordor but never falls.

Rohan is France. It is an allied power but easily falls to Mordor.

Isengard is Italy. They are the puppets of Mordor just as Italy was the puppet of Germany.

The Dwarfs are all of the neutral nations like Beligium, and others. They don't want to be part of the war but they get pulled into it.

The Elves are America. They try to stay out of the war but the whole time they support the allies. Later they get into the war.

The Ring is the nuclear bomb. All sides are trying to get control of it. It could control the world or destroy it.

Sauron is Hitler
Sauraman is Mussolini
The Ents are from Macbeth.

Seldon

 

All right, stop the SW vs. LotR stuff. Please.

Edit: That wasn't directed at anyone in particular, just the fact that it continued after EV's post.

 

The title "Return of the Jedi" means that Anakin Skywalker has returned as a jedi and not an evil sith. It had nothing to do with Luke's revenge on Vader so to speak. That is why revenge was not placed inside of the title. There is no revenge. Only a return focused upon Anakin.

 

Yes. I'm tired of this "Star Wars copying Lord of the Rings" idea. In fact, I'm so tired of hearing Lord of the Rings in this board. Star Wars has NOTHING to do with it.

 

The moderators have made it clear that the lotr vs. SW debate should end here. Let us all end the pointless debate and get on topic. No one forces us to post in this thread. So if you don't like it you don't have to read it.

Seldon

 

It was around 1984, a year after ROTJ came out, and Lucas had done an article in a SF magazine (Don't ask which one-can't remember that).

A kid had brought it to GL's attention (during the filming of ROTJ) that a Jedi would'nt seek revenge and that, is basically the whole story in a nutshell.

That is why GL went with Return..

 

That sure would explain the line

"Truly wonderful the mind of a child, is"

 

He could have called it the Second Coming of the Jedi, or the Second Coming of Anakin Skywalker - it's still the same Myth of the Return that features in almost every culture.

 

Sounds a little bit to religious to me...

 

"They are TWO COMPLETELY DIFFERENT TYPES OF STORYS! Fantasy and Sci Fi"

Not true. SW is space fantasy. It is not science fiction in the truest sense.

"Star Wars has NOTHING to do with [LOTR]"

Except when discussing similar underlying concepts between the two films.

"A kid had brought it to GL's attention (during the filming of ROTJ) that a Jedi would'nt seek revenge and that, is basically the whole story in a nutshell.

That is why GL went with Return.. "

Nope. "Revenge" was just another ruse, along the lines of "Blue Harvest". It was to keep away or appease curious looky-loos. (sp? )

"it's still the same Myth of the Return that features in almost every culture."

Agreed, hence my comment about similar underlying concepts.

"Sounds a little bit to religious to me..."

MOYERS: What do you make of the fact that so many people have interpreted your work as being profoundly religious?

LUCAS: I don't see Star Wars as profoundly religious. I see Star Wars as taking all the issues that religion represents and trying to distill them down into a more modern and easily accessible construct--that there is a greater mystery out there. I remember when I was 10 years old, I asked my mother, "If there's only one God, why are there so many religions?" I've been pondering that question ever since, and the conclusion I've come to is that all the religions are true.

---

MOYERS: One explanation for the popularity of Star Wars when it appeared is that by the end of the 1970s, the hunger for spiritual experience was no longer being satisfied sufficiently by the traditional vessels of faith.

LUCAS: I put the Force into the movie in order to try to awaken a certain kind of spirituality in young people--more a belief in God than a belief in any particular religious system. I wanted to make it so that young people would begin to ask questions about the mystery. Not having enough interest in the mysteries of life to ask the question, "Is there a God or is there not a God?"--that is for me the worst thing that can happen. I think you should have an opinion about that. Or you should be saying, "I'm looking. I'm very curious about this, and I am going to continue to look until I can find an answer, and if I can't find an answer, then I'll die trying." I think it's important to have a belief system and to have faith.[/i][/b] - [link=http://people.ucsc.edu/~cluine/lucas%20interview.html]Bill Moyers interview[/link][/blockquote]

 

I have read somewhere that Lucas came up with the fake title(revenge) to distinguish illegal material.

 

That was partly true as well. It was part of the ruse.

 

Of course there are similar concepts. But ROTK and ROTJ are both fine examples of some of the best cinema out there.

If ROTK doesn't win Best Picture, a whole lot of people are gonna be pissed. And they still friggin' owe us for '77, '80, and '83.

A lot of the arrogance on the part of certain so-called SW fans really ticks me off, and I come in and take them down a peg. True fans aren't arrogant toward other stories.

 

Using a term like the Second Coming of Anakin Skywalker is, of course, far too religous. I mentioned it just to try and point out the basic concept behind both the Reurn of the King and the Return of the Jedi - both are based on the universal Myth of the Return, which has influenced religion as well as well as most other major myths.

 

"True fans aren't arrogant toward other stories."

?

More of the so-called "true fan" mindset.

 

I never said true fans can't dislike things about the saga, or like other things. I'm not a purist. I'm the farthest thing from a purist you'll find on these boards, except for maybe Bib Fortuna, Twi'lek.

True fans don't go around disparaging other stories simply because it's the popular thing to do. They stick to their guns and do what they want.

 

....according to you. And, of course, a "true fan" wouldn't disagree with your assessment of what a "true fan" is....

Fanciful.

 

MeBeJedi, I read the article with my own eyes. Why would GL lie in an article?

If I can find the article I will post it. But I am telling you what I read was true.

If "Blue Harvest" and "Revenge of the Jedi" was just another ruse...why would GL produce Revenge of the Jedi mercendise instead of Blue Harvest mercendise?

"Sounds a little bit to religious to me..." I was just referring to the titles of Second Coming of the Jedi, or the Second Coming of Anakin Skywalker.