Return of the King

Discussion in 'Milwaukee, WI' started by JAKEFETT, Jan 10, 2004.

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  1. JAKEFETT Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 10, 2003
    star 2
    Well, it's been about 3 weeks since it was released and I'm sure most of you have seen it already. So what did you think? Was it a worthy end to the trilogy? I thought it was just as great as the first two even though there were some things missing I wanted to see, that will be in the SE of course.
  2. Outlander_ Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 11, 2002
    star 2
    I thought it was good...but it could be better,and I'm expecting the extended version to make it what it should be.
  3. LeiaYT1300 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 7, 2002
    star 3
    I have to agree with Jason. It was good, but there was definitely something lacking. In short, it was bad editing. You could feel you were missing things that needed to be extrapolated upon. So I'm dying to see the Extended Version also, since it will all be back together the way it was meant to be.
  4. solo414 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 28, 2002
    star 4
    It was great. I've gone to see it 3 times and I'll go again in a heartbeat. I agree that the extended edition will be better, but that's to be expected.
  5. BYOB_Kenobi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 7, 2000
    star 5
    ROTK is just begging for the Extended Edition treatment. What's weird is that each of the three movies were edited by different people. That makes for some noticeable discrepancies, in my opinion.
  6. jedisister Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 1, 2001
    star 3
    I loved it and thought it was great...also saw it 3 times...soon to be four, but am also looking forward to the EE version.
  7. CaptMereel Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 11, 2002
    star 3
    Well, I have you all beat...I've now seen it 5 times!

    Yes, there were times the editing was rough but, overall, it was absolutely awesome! Unfortunately it makes me dread Episode III...I'm really worried GL is going to fail in the same way he failed with Episodes I and II...I mean neither of those give me the feelings and reactions as each LOTR film has done - but maybe that's just me.

    Anyways, I've seen photos from the film and there are definitely lots of stuff probably going to be put back into the extended DVD...like the Houses of Healing and the Mouth of Sauron. We have to wait almost a whole year for that!!!
  8. LeiaYT1300 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 7, 2002
    star 3
    I agree with you, Leslie, on having great fears for EPIII, considering ROTK and the great emotions it can rouse versus the rather indifferent reactions EPI and EPII caused.

    But now that I've seen EPII probably a few hundred times now (since it's been running every couple of days on HBO and Cinemax), I find that I'm reacting to it more than I did upon my first viewing. Which is somewhat awful, because I wonder how I could get this way, suddenly feeling those initially flat scenes in a far deeper sense. And perhaps that's what George is suffering from. He's watched the scenes so many times for whatever reason before the final product comes to fruition, that he doesn't notice the flaws anymore, that he can look beyond them and easily delude himself into thinking the final product is worthy of release. I feel I've gotten to that point and that realization has made me feel somewhat of a sucker. I've become so used to it (to the point of quoting dialogue on cue), that I've really begun to like it. Then I have to step back and remember the numerous flaws, sort of to reset my view. George has never been reset, he's so deep into his world. He can't see the forest for the trees. And that's what I fear for EPIII.

    Peter Jackson seems to have been able to maintain an overall hold on everything, while letting the details flow beautifully through it without disturbing his general sense of the films (all editing for the theatrical release aside)--maybe because he doesn't have such a vise-like grip over the details of the film as George does; he trusts his cast and crew, which makes ROTK so successful, even despite bad editing.

    Does what I wrote make sense (I just read over it, and I'm not entirely sure that I was clear)?
  9. Skywalker1138 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 7, 2002
    star 3
    Well, of the 3 LOTR movies, I think ROTK was the biggest tear jerker, but my favorite is still FOTR. I've only seen it twice thus far, but there will be plenty more viewing. The introduction of all the characters was priceless in FOTR. I got extraordinarly sad to watch the end of ROTK, knowing this was the close to the LOTR movies, but the conclusions of the characters were wonderful, save for Arwen and Aragorn's end, which needs to be filled out more (and Faramir's & Eowyn's)... so, the end was summed up too fast, but after all they had a lot to do. It was a great film, and I'm looking forward to the extended edition.

    I'm obsessed with the elves though, and of course, ROTK is more about humans overcoming death and destruction... great story, but like I said, I'm ELF-obesessed right now. Just bought The Silmarillion.

  10. BYOB_Kenobi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 7, 2000
    star 5
    Episode 3 is going to suck. :)
  11. Bishop76 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 1, 2002
    star 3
    You know, I was going to restrain myself, but I can't.

    Shut the hell up with the LOTR/SW comparisons.

    FOTR aside, LOTR trilogy wasn't all that. TTT and ROTK were nothing more than extended combat scenes with little in the way of quality character development. I don't see how these two movies are any different than AOTC in that respect. I will grant that you can argue that they're better than TPM, but I can't accept it in regards to AOTC. And why even speculate about E3? What possible good can it do other than pissing me off?

    On another note, you're all comparing adaptations and original works. Adaptations I might add of one of the most beloved pieces of 20th century literature. Kinda hard to botch that. Mr. Lucas has to come up with these ideas all on his own and impress all the fan-wank bitch boxes of the world. So he didn't impress with TPM. He improved upon it with AOTC without a doubt and I know that everyone I went to see it with had a freakin' blast while watching it.

    In conclusion, SHUT UP

    Jeff
  12. LeiaYT1300 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 7, 2002
    star 3
    It's cool, Jeff. I can see where you're coming from on that score. I don't mean to knock AOTC, but I can't deny that it has problems, especially when compared with the novelizations of film, which demonstrate what could have been, original stories straight to film and established fantasy novels aside.

    So it's all good. :)
  13. CaptMereel Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 11, 2002
    star 3
    Since I will be banned if I say what I really think about Jeff's post, I will only say that there is nothing wrong with expressing our opinions or comparisons about this particular movie or trilogy and our apprehension for EpIII.

    **** SPOILER ALERT FOR THOSE WHO MAY NOT HAVE SEEN ROTK YET AND SO I DON'T GET SLAMMED LIKE I WAS THE LAST TIME I MENTIONED SOME THINGS ABOUT ROTK ****
















    With that being said, I just have to explain why I think these films are the best films ever made and why I found them to be extraordinary. In FOTR you had the development of the Fellowship and the interpersonal relationships that develop between certain characters. Then in TTT you start with an opening that will probably never be equalled and move to the separate groups and how each is progressing - from the growing friendship between Legolas and Gimli to the growing leadership of Aragorn to the dependence of Frodo on Sam and the effect Merry and Pippin ultimately have (as Gandalf says like pebbles starting an avalanche) etc and the amazing split-personality scene of Gollum/Smeagol. Then in ROTK (editing problems aside) all of it comes together starting with the doubt of Aragorn and Gandalf about whether or not Frodo is even alive (their talk in the Golden Hall) to Elrond telling Aragorn to put aside the Ranger and be who he was meant to be, to the effective way they make your emotions flip-flop regarding Gollum/Smeagol, to Pippin and his horror at realizing that Denethor may be insane (besides his treatment of Faramir) to the gut-wrenching scene where Frodo tells Sam to go home, to the bravery of Theoden (who I've come to admire more and more as I see ROTK each time) and then Dernhelm (Eowyn) defending the downed Theoden and Snowmane against the WitchKing of Angmar and his fellbeast to, ultimately, the return of the King and his homage to the Hobbits. And, of course, you have the exquisite natural beauty of New Zealand that whisks you away to Middle Earth as well as the tremendous abilities of WETA in all three films.

    I find that, when I want to watch a movie, I reach for either FOTR or TTT rather than TPM or AOTC. Why? Because the stories, characters AND the actors who play them are so much better (and humor is placed appropriately and elegantly in an otherwise very serious story). Granted LOTR was monumental literature before it became a film trilogy but the films still could have been awful if it hadn't been for the devotion of Jackson and everyone else from Walsh and Boyens to the geniuses at WETA to the highest paid actor and the lowest food service worker. I'm sorry to say that when I do put in TPM or AOTC, I find myself not paying full attention to either...I get up and do other things here and there or my mind wanders to other things or I use it solely as background noise. Am I the only one this happens to??? I don't think so.

    I still enjoy SW (more the classic trilogy than EpI or II) but because of the shallow characterizations, lame lines and, in some cases, awful acting in the first 2 films, I'm concerned that EpIII will be disappointing. I really hope George will prove me wrong.

    Okay, so am I banned anyways??? [face_plain]




  14. Bishop76 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 1, 2002
    star 3
    You misunderstand my anger.

    My anger lies in making direct comparisons of the two movies because it cannot be done. Praise ROTK and the others all you want - I'm fine with that. My opinion does differ, but they are still pretty good movies.

    Trash AOTC all you want on its own lack of merit - lots of other people do it, and I didn't see it with you opening night so I don't know what your initial reaction to it was, but I know a lot of people who loved it and who are now bashing it and that is what gets my blood pressure up about that. (wow, nice run on sentence)

    Let SW stand on its own, and let LOTR stand on its own and I'll be happy. To me, comparing the two is like comparing Chicago (the movie) to Gladiator. It just doesn't make sense.

    Jeff
  15. BYOB_Kenobi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 7, 2000
    star 5
    "What possible good can it do other than pissing me off?"

    Are you saying that pissing you off is a good thing?



    PS: ESB trumps all. :)



    PPS: The Vikings suck. :)
  16. Bishop76 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 1, 2002
    star 3
    MURDER RAGE!

    Oh, and word on that ESB trumps all bit.

    Jeff
  17. CaptMereel Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 11, 2002
    star 3
    I agree it is difficult to compare TPM or AOTC to LOTR because they are 2 completely different types of movies but you can compare your reaction to them AND other things such as was the acting good or bad etc. My reaction to TPM when I first saw it was, hmmmm, okay, that was good but it left me flat emotionally (except for the lame and far too easy of a death for Darth Maul which infuriated me!). Then, anticipating AOTC would be better (and, overall, I do think it is a better film than TPM), I admit parts of it were fantastic but, again, overall, it left me flat (except the exciting fight between Obi-Wan and Jango...only to see Jango later get killed so lamely by Mace Windu...again, a fantastic villian getting killed in a manner that left me going what the frell?!?!).

    One of my main problems with both films is that, IMO, the actors who played Anakin are poor actors. I didn't empathize or sympathize with either of them and they, themselves, hardly displayed any emotion and, when they did, it was more whining than anything else and that just irritated me. If I am to be emotionally affected when Anakin finally becomes Darth Vader, I need to feel emotionally for him when he's a 9 year old and a 19 year old...but I don't. However, in retrospect, it might not have been fully the actors fault but the writer for writing these parts they way they are.

    Now, comparing my emotional reaction to all 3 LOTR films, I can honestly say I was totally drawn into those films, into each of the actors/characters and into the whole story - which was not true with TPM or AOTC. I only had one complaint and that was with Eowyn/Miranda Otto in TTT...people who know me know that I referred to her as cow-eyed (for Aragorn) which irritated me but, seeing how her character developed from TTT to ROTK (ah, here is another fault with Anakin...he did not develop - he remained the same whiner from TPM to AOTC), my opinion changed, particularly with her bravery at Pelennor which ultimately ended with her defense of Theoden (and poor dead Snowmane) against the Witch King of Angmar (which, having read the books several times through the years, I knew was going to happen anyways). My opinion of her has changed so much that I'm considering doing her battle outfit in time for the next Tolkien convention in Toronto in 2005!

    So, anyways, again these are just my opinions and I will defend your right to have your opinions as well.... :)

  18. TheWampas1138 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 2, 2002
    star 4
    I'm gonna have to go with Jeff here. I wasn't crazy about TTT, I thought it was the weakest of the three. For what reason? It's like art, sometimes I just can't tell anyway why I like what I like.

    As for SW, AOTC will catch me every single time and hold me through the end of the movie..when Obi leaves for Geonosia...I'm hooked.

    I liked the Lord of the rings trilogy but Petey didn't show me anything I had already seen in my own head when I read the books. George showed me something entirely new.

    Anyone who read the books first already had the story in their head. At least that's how it works for me, while I appreciate Jackson's interpretation, I'll always appreciate the story that I interpreted when I read the books.

    m
  19. LauedGiind Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2002
    star 2
    Ok, I've watched ROTK twice in the movie theaters and I have to say that I absolutely loved that movie. In fact, I think it is the best out of the three despite the poor editing which I hope the extended edition will take care of.

    As to comparisons between the SW movies and LOTR movies, I have to agree with Jeff along the lines that you are comparing an adaptation of a book to an original piece. I think Peter Jackson did a fine job creating the work of art that is represented on film. However, I believe this would not have been accomplished without the extended details of Tolkien's books. GW has created an original universe and it's unfortuneate that he does not listen to the fans who have grown up with the movies and have loved them since the day that they were born. He has to overcome the pictures in our minds of what Anakin was like before he became Darth Vader. Personally, I think good ol' George waited too long to make the prequels and the result has been the reactions of fans to the new films as well as the holes that have been left in the writing of the films. As for Episode III, I hope that it will be good and will quench our desire of the images that have been playing in our heads long ago. To me, I think it is the writing of the scripts and the editing of the prequels that has created some problems with the movies. I do like AOTC and after watching it many times I get the same feeling that Beret described. I personally feel that Natalie Portman could have done some better acting in both films. She is so stiff and shows no emotion at all. Look how she reacted to Anakin's advances in the fireplace scene. She could have put more emotion into those scenes. The only part where she really displayed emotion was during Corde's death at the beginning of the movie. Personally, I think Hayden did a fine job as Anakin and conveyed the emotions extremely well. Perhaps some won't agree with this but you have to give him credit in the scenes at the Tuskien Raider camp and the scene after that in the Laars homstead. So, to sum everything up:

    LOTR: Good
    SW: Good
    LOTR scripts: Good
    Original SW trilogy scripts: Good
    Prequel SW trilogy Scripts: Leaves much to be desired
    LOTR acting: Good
    Original SW trilogy acting:Good
    Prequel SW acting: Certain actors good, others can't act with CG
    FOTR: Good
    TTT: Good
    ROTK: Good
    TPM: Jar Jar needs to die
    AOTC: good but they need to get rid of Natalie's stiff performance
    Ep III: hoping it will make up for TPM
    Original Trilogy: Excellent

    :)
  20. CaptMereel Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 11, 2002
    star 3
    My opinion still remains that LOTR are better films than the SW Prequels. I also just spent an hour over lunch talking with my co-worker who is an avid SW fan as well but thinks the same way I do in this respect (and she's never read the books). She agrees with my reasons why they are better (see my previous tome of a post) and also has serious doubts about Episode III based on the failure of the previous 2 films to evoke any emotion for the characters from her (she pointed out Natalie Portman's lackluster portrayal of Padme as well). We analyzed everything, even going into such things as the effect a good script, ie good writer(s), and a good director can have on the performances of his/her actors...we speculated that perhaps neither the scripts nor the director for TPM and AOTC were inspiring enough to give even the good actors a chance to believe in their characters. I played devil's advocate and suggested we can't compare a 50-year old monumental piece of literature to an original script and she said that was bogus...if the scripts for EpI & II had been well-written then we wouldn't be having this discussion, comparison or disagreement (on the boards). She also turned it back on me and said that both places, Middle-earth and the SW universe, are fabricated/imaginery places with imaginery beings in an imaginery time so...what's the difference? The writer!

    She mentioned that she owns the DVDs of all the films but hasn't watched TPM or AOTC more than twice for the same reasons I gave but has watched FOTR and TTT countless times.

    Call me a traitor or a turncoat if you want. ;) I do hope Episode III does not disappoint me...although I'm very, very pessimistic!
  21. TheWampas1138 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 2, 2002
    star 4
    What also people are failing to take into consideration is the genre. Personally, I would much prefer a film/book/story revolving around themes more in touch with science fiction/science fantasy than a pure fantasy realm. If given a choice between Asimov or Mercedes Lackey..I'm heading for Asimov every single time.

    And while I enjoyed reading LoTR when I was kid, when I read them as an adult I realized they were not by a stretch of the imagination the best of its genre, they were only the first of its kind that was mainstreamed. Granted, I'm not much of a fantasy reader. Fantasy is improbability while Sci Fi is possibility which is much more interesting to me.

    Movies are movies. They are culture's attempt to cater to the short attention spans that plague the public. None of these films are testament to human creativity and achievement..they're movies. Enjoy them, hate them, but in the end..get over it.


    m



  22. Bishop76 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 1, 2002
    star 3
    Agreed, Marcy

    But I do have to say, ROTK was to me like AOTC was to you, Leslie - I was bored out of my mind until the action started because I felt nothing for the characters. IMO, TTT had taken all the character out of it. I'll grant you, the performances were better, but there was nothing of more substance in either one.

    That, and it's really frustrating to me to hear people sing praises to these movies when only one of them was really good (FOTR), so I feel the need to argue against them.

    Jeff
  23. BYOB_Kenobi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 7, 2000
    star 5
    I seem to remember someone waiting feverishly for his girlfriend to let him watch the Extended Edition of TTT.

    Ass. :)
  24. Bishop76 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 1, 2002
    star 3
    Hey, TTT and ROTK were still good, just not really good like FOTR. I also, for the record, classify AOTC as good. I do think that the extended TTT adds some character quality to the film as well (again, for the record).

    Jeff
  25. Bishop76 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 1, 2002
    star 3
    Check this out - an article about why SW is better than LOTR (thanks Jenni).

    http://www.salon.com/ent/movies/feature/2002/01/09/lotr_starwars/

    Jeff
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