PT Revenge of the Sith is really DUMB

At the midpoint of this movie, he is still a hero, a decent guy trying to do the right thing.

He finds out that Palpatine is the Sith Lord, which means Palpatine is corrupted by the dark side, and which also means that Palpatine has been lying to everyone -- the Senate, the public, everyone. It means Palpatine is a big, fat liar.

Anakin does the right thing -- he reports the information to Mace Windu.

Then, when he bursts in on Windu battling Palpatine, he doesn't dispute that Palpatine is a criminal who needs to be arrested -- the dispute is just whether Palpatine should be summarily executed, or should be given due process.

Anakin, quite reasonably, takes the position that Palpatine should be taken alive and tried. When Mace ignores him and prepares to kill Palpatine, Anakin stops him, cutting off his hand.

Palpatine then reveals he was not as badly wounded as he pretended and blasts Mace with lightning while screaming something like, "ultimate power!" Mace is now dead.

Anakin immediately says, "Oh my God, what have I done?"

Up to this point, everything Anakin has done is understandable and defensible. And you would expect his next step -- having just seen further confirmation that Palpatine is a duplicitous murderer who wants "ultimate power" to rule the galaxy -- would be to try to arrest Palpatine himself.

But this is where Anakin's behavior goes completely off the rails. Now that he has received all the possible confirmation he could ever want that Palpatine is an evil liar, he suddenly joins him and takes a vow of loyalty as his apprentice!

And we are supposed to believe that he does this because Palpatine has suggested he might be able to help him use the dark side to prevent Padme from dying. The only reason Anakin has for believing this is possible is the word of Palpatine himself -- who Anakin knows is an extreme liar! And even Palpatine admits that he himself doesn't even know how to do it -- that only "Darth Plagueis" did, and he is dead.

Moreover, based on this absurdly weak rationale, Anakin immediately accepts orders to destroy the Jedi Temple and kill all Jedi he finds, even young children. How could Anakin -- who just a matter of moments before was ready to see Palpatine arrested and tried for treason -- suddenly be willing to slaughter children on Palpatine's orders? Because Palpatine tells him doing so will make him strong enough with the dark side to discover the "secret" of saving Padme?

Anyone with an IQ over 10 would be able to see that Palpatine wasn't genuinely interested in helping Anakin -- that there would be no saving Padme. How could Anakin be so stupid? Does anyone understand this?

 

The only explanation is that it is bad storytelling & Lucas was to much in a hurry in the last chapter getting all the pieces of the puzzle together.
It's been said before but ... He should haved planned the whole prequel trilogy better.
The film has some bright spots but the scenes you just described and the duel between Anakin & Obi Wan are not well constructed from a storytelling standpoint.

 

Well don't ask the kids who had no idea that Palpatine was anything but a nice old man who was Anakin's friend!

It's all well and good to take your knowledge of the film where you can see everything and then try to apply it to one character or on particular instance. It all looks so easy when you can see everything that is happening. The point is that Palpatine has fooled everyone. I mean everyone. The Republic, the Jedi, the Seperatists, Dooku and everyone else.

The great thing about what you bring up is that I can go on and on about various aspects of Anakin's character that were set up from TPM forward

First of all Anakin is now a murderer, He killed Mace. He cut off his hand and allowed a Sith lord to murder him.

Basically he's screwed.

Try to arrest Palpatine?

Are you kidding? Did you see what he just did to Mace Windu the second most powerful Jedi alive at that time? He's tries anything he's following Mace out the window.

So with ruin staring him in the face and Padme's death which he is certain of and the only guy who has even a chance of giving him the power to save her he does what in his mind the most rational thing.

If you can't beat 'em, join 'em.

Palpatine controls the Senate and the Courts. He's a super powerful Sith Lord he has no chance of taking down and he can help him find the power to save Padme. He's dealing with a guy who has all the cards, the table, the room the table is in and the building the room is in and the street the building is on and the city the street is in and so on.

Maybe he doesn't really believe it. Maybe he's just rationalizing it all.

That doesn't even get into all the other character motivations built up over the previous 13 years since he left Tatooine.

I think it's genius storytelling. I think Revenge of the Sith is Lucas' masterpiece of storytelling. From the first time I saw it I found it totally engaging and entracing. It's does what a great film does. Like Anakin I wanted more.

 

Oh look another Prequel bashing thread

 

It's not a prequel bashing thread, it's just a basic opinion thread. It's not super subtle, insightful or compelling, but it's not "bashing". Yeah, to us it's all been said before a million times, but the TS is a relative noob and may not be aware of that.

 

Not in my opinon. All through the film there are overtones and hints that all is not well in Anakin-land. First there's the beheading of Dooku. Then Anakin says he doesn't need Obi-Wan's help. He says at some point that he's not the Jedi he should be - that he wants more. He doesn't seem overly-concerned that Palpatine knows obscure Sith legends and he expresses interest in learning dark powers. There's also his behaviour on the council, especially the outburst where Anakin wants to know why he isn;t a master.

Why should he dispute it? Anakin knows as well what Palpatine is, what a Sith Lord is and what Palpatine's done to the galaxy.

Anakin takes the legally correct position. But in the case of Sith Lords, it's never going to be this straightforward. I happen to think Mace was correct to try and execute Palpatine. Had Palpatine gone to trial he would probably have been cleared and then gone on to stir up more trouble. Remember what that guy on Naboo said in AOTC, something about Nute Gunray having gone through four trials but still holding on to his position as Viceroy of the Trade Federation.

Palpatine's precise words are "Power! Unlimited Power!" I think the reason Anakin says "What have I done?" is because all had not gone to plan. Anakin hadn't intended to help kill a Jedi. He probably wanted to learn Palpatine's power whilst Palpatine was standing trial.

Anakin's motivation is to save Padme. Like I said above, Anakin probably wanted to remain in the Jedi Order and learn the power from Palpatine whilst standing trial. That's why he wanted Palpatine arrested. Now with Mace Windu dead Anakin has effectively permanently severed his ties with the Jedi Order. As he sees it, his only option left is to join Palpatine and follow the Sith plan through. This was all perfectly understandable to me.

Anakin is desperate to save Padme. He may think it's a rather long shot himself but the point is, he sees it as his best shot. It was better than anything the Jedi could offer - "Train yourself to let go of everything you fear to lose."

Again, it's just dawned on Anakin the enormity of what he's done. He's helped kill a respected Jedi master. Anakin sees following Palpatine's orders as his only option.

Anakin thought Palpatine was his friend. We are often willing to overlook things when it comes to our friends. By the time Anakin knew what was happening, it was already too late.

 

Yes, he was being incredibly stupid
Which is why I love this bit of his character development

Palpatine, even as unreliable as he was, was the only chance he had. As far as he saw, there was no other way. He was absolutely certain that Padme was going to die if he didn't do something, just as he believed that he should have been able to save his mother
I hate how people keep saying things about Vader like "relentlessly" or even "gleefully" slaughtering the Jedi
Again, he felt like he had no choice. If he did not do as Palpatine commanded, then he would never be able to save Padme. He couldn't go back to the Jedi at that point either. It's very obvious that he felt a deep regret for his actions. Just look at the anguish on his face before activating his lightsaber to strike down the younglings, or when he cries on Mustafar under the eclipsed sun (one of my favorite scenes in the saga)

Not only this, but to a lesser degree, he was genuinely manipulated into politically believing Palpatine. In the post production editing, this became a lot less apparent, but can still be picked out. He shows in AOTC that he clearly disagrees with how the politics work, and insists in ROTS that a Galactic Empire is the safer way to go, and so he also believes that murdering the leaders of the Confederacy will end the war (which it does anyway)

Overall, remember that this is my opinion. I respect everyone else's

 

Absolutely nothing wrong with that scene, nor with the one mentioned above.

Anakin doesn't suggest that Palpatine should be arrested and kept for a trial because he's such a fan of democracy and the courts, he does it because he is 100% sure that Padme will die if he doesn't help her and that Palpatine is the only chance there is to save her. It's completely selfish and has nothing whatsoever to do with doing what is right. From his point of view, he needs Palpatine, which requires Palpatine to be alive. Like he said himself, he wanted to kill Palpatine, but he didn't, why, because he thinks he needs him. The whole point of going to Mace to tell him about Palpatine is to make sure that he doesn't have to kill Palpatine. Throughout the years Palpatine has been there for him, he helped him when in trouble and was both a friend and a mentor. Anakin might be angry about Palpatine being the Sith they had been searching for, but that is irrelevant when it comes to saving Padme. Padme is the one fundamental thing that absolutely needs to be saved, everything else is irrevelant compared to that. Here is the one guy who offers the only chance so far to save her, and he didn't suggest it so he would be spared, he himself went to Anakin to offer his help. It doesn't matter how slim the chance might be, anything is worth a try. Anakin had the same visions he had when his mother died - visions that did indeed happen - so he has a good reason to fear such a vision coming true. At that point he cannot possibly know that his attempts to save Padme are the very reason that kill her. As you may have noticed, Anakin went to other Jedi for help, none of them gave him an answer that did anything for him. At that point he's desperate, clinging to any tiny chance that may help him.

Anakin tries to save Palpatine, because Palpatine may be the only chance to save Padme, as such, he needs to keep Mace from killing Palpatine. He doesn't try to kill or harm Mace, he just wants to block his attack on Palpatine. But the effect is what matters, Mace ends up dying because of it. That's why he wonders about what he has done, he didn't want to kill Mace, this wasn't supposed to happen. Palpatine was supposed to help rescue Padme, and everything else would go on as it had before.

Now that chance is gone. He still needs Palpatine, he's the only chance to rescue Padme - again, the only thing that matters to Anakin - so now he is left with no real choice. He sees Palpatine as the means necessary to save Padme, but he cannot use Palpatine to help her, keep in line with the Jedi and take out the Sith all at the same time. So he chooses what is most important to him, Padme. From that point on, he needs to take out everyone who can threaten Palpatine, as the Jedi would never allow Palpatine to stay in charge, nor would they let Anakin use Palpatine's knowledge to save Padme. That's what the tears on Mustafar are about, he knows that things have gone horribly wrong, but it's what had to happen to save Padme.

That is the point where he goes entirely of the rails. He needs to cope with more and more evil deads, and he starts being delusional. He might not believe these ideas at first, but at some point he pretty much has to.

You are very much ignoring the essential point of the whole story, Padme means the world to Anakin and he will do everything to save her. It's easy to say he just should have let go and everything would have been fine if you are not in a position that suggest very much the opposite.

 

I don't think it's fair, or really considerate to say that someone is "ignoring part of the story" because they dislike how something is played out
Yeah, Anakin is obsessive, and he can't let go. That's why I like this development, yet anakinfan has all the right in the world to dislike it. It has nothing to do with "missing the story"

 

I don't really feel like getting into this yet again, but I'll express agreement with the sentiment that ROTS is dumb. I'll also disagree that Anakin needed to be or should have been dumb in order to fall, you don't have to be as stupid as Anakin to be wrong.

 

Anakin's turn has been discussed numerous times.
You could have searched similar threads and you would have been providedd with all conceivable arguments pro and con, good and bad.

This is already the point where it gets tricky. "The right thing" is a moral construct, it's built on people and exists on a cultural level.
Nature doesn't recognize "right" or "wrong", "good" or "bad".

Anakin could see himself in him. He also lied to everyone, except Padmé. The Council, the public, the Senate, his friend Obi-Wan. He thought his love was worth the lie, though, and might have thought he could give Palpatine a chance thus.

Yeah, "the right thing" again. It's not as easy as that. Anakin's report led Mace to try to murder the Chancellor. Sith or not, whether murder is justifiable or not is debatable (as you admit, later on).

Anakin really doesn't care whether Palpatine is a criminal or not. The only thing he needs is time and he's about to run out of time (!) because Windu is determined to "end this, once and for all".

Palpatine never appears to be "badly wounded", imo, he just made it clear to Anakin that - without his help - he won't survive and therefore all chances of saving Padmé would be lost.

There was no "Oh my God", Anakin is an atheist

Sure and Palpatine - after having waited decades to reach this position of power - would have been like: "Yeah Anakin, tell me where the next prison is. I'm a really bad person, terrible Sith-Lord, please arrest me now!". Of course not! It's quite likely that Anakin in this situation, being in an emotionally weak and unstable condition, wouldn't have surivived a direct confrontation with Sidious!

Yes, because the fact still remains that Palpatine is the only source that could lead him to cheat death. And that's his goal. Searching for ways to reach one's goals is quite rational.

We are not "supposed to believe" that's the reason, it's a clear information and given fact in the film.

It's not a weak rationale, it's a morally questionable rationale. Again: Anakin wasn't actually "ready to see Palpatine arrested and tried for treason", he wanted him to stay alive. That's all. Everything else was postponed in Anakin's mind, to a position where he could reevaluate the situation.
I will say though that Anakin's action were certainly horrible and abrupt. That's obvious.

Because, to quote Padmé, "love has blinded" him!
Get over it.

One advice from my part, because someone with an IQ under 10 could be confused: You should write your post more precisely. In the first passages, one could easily think "Revenge Of The Sith" turned into a "he" and was "dumb". I mean:

 

"You almost come a second too late. You're rushing over to make sure that nothing happens-but your anticipation is that they're going to hurt each other. When the lightning starts things are going from bad to worse from your point of view. And when Mace is going to kill him, you have to act."

"Try and increase how uncomfortable you feel as the shot goes on. Try to think back on the Darth Plagueis story-run that through your head. Take it one step further: you realize that by telling the Jedi about Palpatine being a Sith that Padme is going to die. Basically, you just killed her."

--George Lucas To Hayden Christensen, The Making Of ROTS.


"Okay, well this sequence always started out with Mace uh overpowering Palpatine and then Palpatine using his powers to try to destroy Mace and Mace deflecting his rays with his Lightsaber. It always was that Anakin cut the Lightsaber out of his hand. But this part where he pretends to lose his power and be weak was something that I added later cause this is it moved the point where Anakin turns down to this moment right here and you can see that he’s now that it's very clear that he’s, he wants him to go on trial so he can pump him for information about how to get these powers."

--George Lucas, ROTS DVD Commentary.

"He did realize Palpatine was going to kill him (Mace). So up to that point he was trying to do the right thing but now he realizing that with Mace dead he’s crossed over the line and he sorta succumbs and says yes, I’ll do anything you ask so you can allow me to keep my wife alive. Then he (Sidious) says okay I’ll do that but now you have to go and kill all the Jedi. Leave none alive or they will come back and get us - even the kids. You have to get rid of all the Sith because there are two of them."

--George Lucas, ROTS DVD Commentary.

"When you get down to where we are right now in the story, you basically get somebody who’s going to make a pact with the Devil, and it’s going to be a pact with the Devil that says, 'I want the power to save somebody from death. I want to be able to stop them from going to the river Styx, and I need to go to a god for that, but the gods won’t do it, so I’m going to go down to Hades and get the Dark Lord to allow me to have this power that will allow me to save the very person I want to hang on to.' You know, it’s Faust. So Anakin wants that power, and that is basically a bad thing. If you’re going to sell your soul to save somebody you love, that’s not a good thing. That’s as we say in the film, unnatural. You have to accept that natural course of life. Of all things. Death is obviously the biggest of them all. Not only death for yourself but death for the things you care about."

--George Lucas, quoted in J. Windolf, “Star Wars: The Last Battle,” Vanity Fair, 2005

The Jedi Master is winning when Anakin arrives, but Palpatine, as the scene has been rethought, now seizes the occasion to exaggerate his weakness.

--The Making Of Revenge Of The Sith; Page 204

"(Palpatine is now laying down) But this part where he pretends to lose his power and become weak is something that I added later. Cause this moved the point where Anakin turned to this moment right here."

--George Lucas, ROTS DVD Commentary.

 

This is a cogent set of observations (IMO). Anakin has already half-turned long before he goes back to rescue Palpatine -- the second time the Chancellor needs rescuing, curiously enough (and the first occasion resulted in someone losing their head at Palpatine's urging) -- and is sort of going through the motions; trying to decide where his allegiances lie; or how far to open up to the darkness within.

Yeppies. This board has had a raft of turn discussions. Dangerous and disturbing this inundation is.

Then again, what's one more, eh?

Indeed. Even the term "right thing" enjoins us to a priori accept a black-and-white view of morality and stems from a blanket (and irrational) bigotry concerning left-handed individuals. You'll notice that Palpatine uses the term fallaciously in ROTS: 1) "I was right! The Jedi are taking over!", and 2) (from a deleted scene) "I've said I will do what is right!" The films have further been noted to use very careful left/right dialectics in their visual construction (e.g., the framing of and general movement of combatants in battle scenes).


* * *


How to sum up the fall of Anakin? Well, in one sense, it's simply about frustrated, misdirected energy -- or libido. Look how happy Anakin is, putatively, at least, in TPM. That's the compass that condemns (the psychological climate of) ROTS. Anakin was once able to channel his anxieties into projects of his own making: podracers, protocol droids, scanners to locate slave transmitters, and wooden snippets. What happened to him on the serried, concentrically circular world of Coruscant? The Jedi took his drive and squelched it. He had to effect the countenance of a Jedi princeling: patient, reserved, chaste, forever conciliatory... and ultimately anodyne. Slowly, but surely, he built up his resentments, and eventually found a new outlet in which to finally feed all that frustrated energy. This time, it wouldn't be a podracer or a protocol droid he would build, piece-by-piece, in steady concentration, but an empire soaked in blood, birthed in one night of desperation and madness.


* * *

In short, the film is as intelligent -- or as dumb -- as a viewer makes it.

But to declaim the film for failing to provide any context or clues... well, I think that's a rather feeble position, personally.

And it's also important to remember that ROTS isn't telling the story of Anakin Skywalker in isolation. It's directly building off of two preceding volumes; and also drawing, tentatively, off three that lie ahead.

All those tidbits, all those pieces are out there.

 

Anakin isn't doing this because of misdirected energy or libido. It's about a basic human component which is fear of being alone. Most everyone wants companionship in some form or another. For Anakin, though, it goes beyond that. He forms an attachment to people which interferes with his duties as a Jedi and his emotions leave him compromised towards the dark side. He wants people to be in his life and is afraid to lose them, which is a natural part of being human, but for a Jedi, they must transcend that. They must be willing to put aside their own fears, doubts and uncertainties and focus on the moment. But he cannot let go and as a result he becomes damned by it.

 

I feel that you guys are making counterpoints to the original post by inserting knowledge of general Star Wars mythos instead of viewing it in the perspective of "is this good filmmaking"
I agree that Lucas has very good ideas (offcourse!) but are they always presented/excecuted in the best way possible?

 

Thinking it is good or bad is subjective. At the very least though, the original poster may not have completely grasped the reasoning behind Anakin's turn. That it simply boils down to greed and that he does what he does because of it.

 

that's still bashing.

 

"It's not a prequel bashing thread, it's just a basic opinion thread. It's not super subtle, insightful or compelling, but it's not "bashing". Yeah, to us it's all been said before a million times, but the TS is a relative noob and may not be aware of that."

<<Condescending alert>>

 

OK all, discuss the topic itself, not other posters or your opinions of whether you think the topic is bashing or not.

 

You'd think these "high IQ types" would be able to conceive of the idea that Palpatine can be a bad guy yet still be willing to give Anakin what he wants in order to secure his allegiance. Darth Plagueis could do it; that means that it can be done. Anakin, as alleged Chosen One, has more reason than an average Force sensitive to believe that he could eventually achieve whatever powers Plagueis had.

 

Locked pending further analysis.