Reverie - Obi-Wan vignette - Complete

**hands Swede a flame proof shield**

Here my friend. You will definitely need this if you keep up that line of ranting.

 

Tissues!!! Where are my tissues??!!!

CYN...you...Oh forget it....I can't talk coherently to you after a story like that....

SIRI: My you're popping up everywere...

 

Swede, I suggest you accept that fireproof shield, my friend.

I am very well aware the Qui is human - the whole death scene hinted at that - but, really, that does not excuse him. Is Anikin's being "just human" an excuse for what he did? Can his actions, though on a much larger scale than Qui's, be lessened when the phrase "just human" is applied?

Qui was wounded by Xanatos, but that did not give him the right to wound another in turn. Another who depended on him, who loved him.

Obi-Wan was adapting to Qui's lifestyle, not Qui to Obi's. As a padawan, Obi needed to conform to what Qui wanted, and Qui showed no interest in an emotionally balanced relationship. Qui was, and rightfully so, leading - Obi was going by way of example.

Referring again the the "just human" aspect of Qui, I don't think anyone ever expected him to be perfect. To err is human, but it's what you do after you wrong someone that shows what you actually consist of. But, after 12 years of being mentally bonded to someone, isn't it a bit of a stretch to claim that it was merely imperfection and oversight that refused Obi the care he deserved?

And, just to gloss over the "Obi's fault" side of the argument, I do believe it was the will of the Force that Anikin turn. He brought balance, reducing the number of Jedi to be equal to that of the Sith, as Yoda put it, "Only two there are." But I also believe that, though it was perhaps the will of the Force that he turned, his actions were his own. The future is always in motion and the will can be manipulated, but the only one who can truely make someone's future is that person. There may be forces one can not control at work but, ultimately, it is that person who says yes or no and forms their own destiny...But that is an entirely different topic.

Yes, Qui-Gon was an excellent teacher when it came to swordplay, but again, a detatched master will be easily trumped by one who outwardly shows he cares. Thankfully, Obi was proficient enough to defeat Maul - else this discussion would be rather pointless, no? - but there is no saying that without Qui he would not have done just as well, if not better than.

I love a spirited debate!

 

*chuckles* I'm always willing to read things, even if they aren't catered to my specific tastes. Besides, that sounds realistic. Most emotionally damaging people I've met are truly damaged themselves.

 

I agree that neither Qui nor Obi are perfect, and one thing that bothers me, as a writer, is that if you portray Obi as near perfect (and I admit that I probably have, though I haven't written much in my entire life, and am trying to improve) then people think he's an 'Obi-Sue' (yes, I've heard that phrase used), but if you don't portray Qui-Gon as perfect, then people tell you that you missed his character. Neither one are perfect.

After reading Antigone's post above, I want to add that I believe it was Anakin's decision to turn. We can blame our actions and reactions on others, but in the end, it is our decision to make. We have to take responsibility for our own actions. But it seems that we live in a society of victimization where everything is somebody else's fault. Perhaps the Force knew he would make that decision, and therefore, he fulfilled the prophecy simply because he would have made that decision anyway. Or perhaps he did not have to travel through the darkside, and it was simply a poorly chosen detour on the way to fulfill what he was destined to do. I don't know. This is George's universe and he can have it any way he wants.

OK, I'll stop ranting now. I think I've been around CYN too much.

 

*grabs flame shield from Kitara and ducks behind it* Me and my big mouth, err, hands.

The 'just human' aspect is only one part of it. Qui makes mistakes, Obi makes mistakes, everyone does. But it isn't an excuse for he to hid behind just a possible reason for his behavior. No, I'm not saying how he treated Obi was good or right or even bad, it just was.

One thing I'd like to now, and haven't seen to many illustrations of, is how Qui-Gon acted with Xanatos as his Padawan. Maybe the man was always cold and aloft, he just let Xani get away with more stuff. (As a side note, I don't think Xani was bad from the beginning, maybe a little more arragant then most but not evil. He probably just got used to getting his way with Qui-Gon and so thought that it should always be that way.) With Obi-Wan he didn't want to repeat the biggest mistake in his life, so far, and so treated Obi-Wan differently and stuck with it since it seemed to work.

It also seems that fear is behind a lot of Obi's and Qui's relationship. Qui-Gon was afraid of having another Padawan turn and Obi was afraid of looking weak or failing his Master. And with the way the Council is with fear and the Dark Side, neither would be admiting their fears to each other, for fear that they would hurt or push away the other, and certainly not to the Council who would stare at them for awhile, repeat the Code and tell them to meditate. (Qui-Gon meerly being too stubborn to go to them in the first place and Obi-Wan would think he would look bad going to them alone.)

Qui-Gon might have not shown Obi any emotion but (here's the human part) if Obi wanted to be could have at least try and talk to the man and let him know how he feels. Besides, isn't that what a Padawan's suppose to do with his Master? Qui-Gon couldn't really help Obi-Wan if Obi-Wan never let him know he needed help. Communication is key, bond or no bond. Shields could be raised so Qui-Gon couldn't tell what Obi was feeling and if Obi-Wan had never gone to him before for help, and in fact showed no interest in having his Master's help, Qui-Gon would probabaly feel that he was oversteping his bounds. And after awhile, they simply get used to it being that way, hence the 12 years.

As for Anakin and 'being human', no I don't think that would work for him very well. I do think it was the will of the Force for the Jedi to fall and he seemed to be the best way. I think of it along the lines of Judus and Jesus (sorry if I offend anyone by bring this up, I'll be through it in a minute.) For Jesus to die, someone had to betray him. It just happen to be Judus. For the Jedi, someone had to bring them down and the Force choose Anakin. (I actually kinda feel sorry for him. It's not like he could actually pick out his path in life.)

As for the teaching, Qui was considered the best. It's hard to learn better then what you are taught so Obi-Wan needed the best to survive Naboo. Plus think what Obi might have done if he and Qui expressed their emotions more clearly. Instead of fighting Maul, he might have worked more to save Qui-Gon with the Force and that would have cost him in the battle and he dies in the end. Again, not good.

Well, it's time for bed. This is kinda fun. Though I have a bad feeling that when I check this tomarrow I'm going to be surrounded. I think I'm going to need more of those flame sheilds.

~Swede

 

I have to be up in six hours and look what you're drawing me into!

As to Xanatos, I, as I do of Anikin, believe that he was not born evil or destined to turn, but chose the wrong path, made a crutial error, and ended up in a vat of acid (If I remember correctly). And, honestly, I believe than in trying to prevent another Xanatos, Qui, in fact, made the biggest mistake of his life. "Those who do not learn from the past are doomed to repeat it," is basically the proverb Qui is working off of, but he isn't learning from the past, merely hiding.

And they were not required to admit their fears to the Council. I do not believe that kind of therapy session would have been mandated. Obi was responding in reaction to what Qui did. The emotional state of the pair was not Obi's to decide, but rather Qui's to dictate and Obi's to abide by.

Coming into a situation where it is painfully obvious that you were never really wanted does not make one desire to go out on a limb. To disrupt Qui's way of living and interacting while on such shaky ground is not something any padawan without a wish to be shipped off to the Agicorps would do. Qui did not make the first move, so Obi let him alone.

Communication is the foundation of any relationship - which is, basically, what we are discussing, no? - and, yes, this was a partnership rather shaking in that area, but even the bond gives less credence to "he can't pick up on everything." 12 years the bond was there. 12 years and I am to believe that there was not once a crack in Obi's shielding? Never an accidental emotion snaking across the bond? Obi, as has been pointed out, was not perfect either. His anger, his perhaps lack of sufficiant drive to break through Qui's emotional shields - though I still hold firm that it was not Obi's task to be taken upon - he must have, at least ONCE, let something slip. And when it did happen, even if it was only ONCE, the abrupt change in emotions eminated from one not trouble by passion and in complete control should have been enough to warrent a thorough investigation on the part of a certain Jedi master.

And, in regards to the tragedy that is Anikin Skywalker, is was HIS choice to kill, to destroy, to use his anger in the least constructive manner imaginable. He COULD pick a path - he simply chose the wrong one. And, as for the Jesus/Judas reference, you forget that Jesus' death, according to the Christian lore, did great good where as, in killing the Jedi, the universe lost the only thing standing between it and pure chaos. Not to mention that Judas promptly killed himself and was not able to inflict more damage than had already been done.


Qui was considered one of the best swordsmen in the order, but being the best at swordplay and teaching the best at swordplay are two entirely different things. I have had teachers - absolutely brilliant people - who simply cannot convey their knowledge in a form that students can comprehend.

I don't think the free expression of caring would do anything but strengthen Obi. He already loved Qui - had for some time - when the battle on Naboo came around. An exchange of already present emotions would not have been a hinderance. Obi-Wan is a reasonable person and it was obvious that to help his master he had to first dispose of the Sith. Trying to heal someone when a demon with a double edged 'saber is running at you would be quite the feat. Obi loved his master with or without the return, which is one aspect which makes this little vignette - the inspiration for this entire debate - so heartwrenching.

Cyn, it appears your thread has become home to quite the friendly disagreement.

Ahh, half an hour after I was going to go to bed, I now retire...until tomorrow

 

This is fun, CYN . You should post more stories here.

 

And, in regards to the tragedy that is Anikin Skywalker, is was HIS choice to kill, to destroy, to use his anger in the least constructive manner imaginable. He COULD pick a path - he simply chose the wrong one. And, as for the Jesus/Judas reference, you forget that Jesus' death, according to the Christian lore, did great good where as, in killing the Jedi, the universe lost the only thing standing between it and pure chaos. Not to mention that Judas promptly killed himself and was not able to inflict more damage than had already been done. >>

About Anakin...keep in mind that until E3 comes out we don't know exactly why or how Anakin turned. Unfortunately AotC kinda destroyed my perception (as per Obi in the OT) that Anakin was "A good man." Let's just say that to keep a long story short, I thought it was a case of how Anakin's intentions were good, originally. You may not like Ani but it wasn't like he was waking up every morning thinking "so, how can I turn to the Dark Side today?"

Also with Dooku we learn that Ani has precedent, so to speak. And Dooku's ideas may well have been admirable...he believed the Jedi should take a different role in the Republic, as stated in the novel...nothing wrong with a dissenting opinion...but somehow, he was seduced by the Sith.


Regarding Qui, it seems like there are WAAAY too many people who either think he a) can do no wrong or b) is only one step away from the Sith. I take a middle ground. (and if you want to bring in JA, keep in mind not everyone thinks the entire EU should be considered canon)


Qui was considered one of the best swordsmen in the order, but being the best at swordplay and teaching the best at swordplay are two entirely different things. I have had teachers - absolutely brilliant people - who simply cannot convey their knowledge in a form that students can comprehend. >>


Well, how does this carry over to the Obi/Ani situation? Sure, I'm not going to say Obi deserves the blame, but his student DID end up a Sith. It's not an all-or nothing scenario as far as responsibility goes. Ani is responsible for his actions, but so is Palpatine for manipulating him and if Obi, in fact, is somehow to blame, then I don't see how anyone should be excused. I mean, do you think Padme should have said something to him after she found out he massacred the Tuskens? I do. Does that mean I think it's her fault that he turned? No. But she and Obi, being close to him and perhaps, for whatever reason, failing to dissuade him from certain actions...

But as I said, we really don't know until E3 comes out. Or you can read my version...hehe [/shameless DOTF plug]...no, really..




Obi loved his master with or without the return, which is one aspect which makes this little vignette - the inspiration for this entire debate - so heartwrenching. >>

That I DO agree with.



Cyn, it appears your thread has become home to quite the friendly disagreement. >>

Regarding Cyn's earlier statement on intellectual discussion inspired by fanfic...this just proves my point. I mean, any "deep thoughts" I had after reading Darksaber (and a good deal of the published EU, for that matter) consisted of "I just spent 6 bucks on this?"

Heck, I'd pay to read SW novels if JediGaladriel or Cyn or RRK, for example, were writing them.

Later,

-Tim

 

Holy cow! Didn't realize I'd opened a can of worms, here.

Am overdue in a meeting, but had to take one moment to say:

AHEM - I LOVE RANTS!

Back later to add my two cents - and if anybody believes that I can hold it down to two cents worth, I have some beach front property in Nevada that I'd like to show you.

CYN

 

Cyn? Love rants?

As Marawannabe would say, with sarcasm:

NEVVVVAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!!

*smirk*

(-Tim, eagerly awaiting the aproximately $1, 542. 50 from the Author)

 

Tim - but it wasn't like he was waking up every morning thinking "so, how can I turn to the Dark Side today?"
OMG! - Exactly!!

CYN - I have some beach front property in Nevada that I'd like to show you
They do have a lot of sand

There are so many lovely arguments being presented on both sides and it is such a joy to read them all, but since I usually couldn't fight my way out of a literary paper bag, I'll stick with reading them. Suffice it to say though, I viewed it as one author's very powerful and haunting interpretation.

Rogue

 

I must take a stand here as well, and also I'd like to state from the outset that after AOTC, I can't say for sure which Jedi I prefer, Qui-Gon or Obi-Wan.

I will agree with Darth_Tim in the middle of the road for Qui-Gon Jinn. I would like to think that he is a man who is trying to do the best he can for his son-figure. This comes up repeatedly in the JA books: he takes his apprentice back after the Melida/Daan fiasco, he is concerned for and seems to support his padawan consistently to my views to the best of his ability. This isn't to say he is perfect at this, by any means. And, given Xanatos, he is not.

As I said in an above post, in my experience, damaged people tend to damage other people. With Qui-Gon, he was wounded by Xanatos's betrayal. I think, however, that is less important than the injury that Qui-Gon knows he must have inflicted on his former padawan. Something occurred (and I can't remember exactly, except that it had to do with Xanatos's father) that wounded Xanatos, making him distrust and be outright hostile to his former master. From my point of view, Qui-Gon was trying to prevent this kind of wound, not only to himself, but to Obi-Wan. I truly believe that he loved Obi-Wan, even more than Xanatos, and in an effort to avoid injury his charge, he was more remote. Not completely removed, because it is obvious that they maintain a trust and relationship, but still not whole. From his experience, this is the best Qui-Gon knows how to do. It isn't perfect, by any means, but neither is it completely appalling.

 

CYN - darting in during meeting break - urges you guys to keep talking - because you're giving me an idea, here.

The view from the other side, perhaps?

CYN

 

*peeks over her shield to see who all is charging her*

I agree with you Antigone that Xani made the wrong choice and ended up frying for it. But with Anakin, I don't really think he had as much a choice in it. The Force decreed that he be the Chosen One and with that whatever responsiblity came with it. If killing off the Jedi was part of it, then he couldn't do anything about it. I think the Jedi were growing to sure of themselves and their *right* to follow the Force. They would have either a) slowly fallen to the Dark Side because of their arragance or b) lived in an ivory tower judging the world but otherwise not a part or caring for it. It would have taken awhile for that to happen but by then the Code and teachings would be so messed up that when/if they were destroyed the new generation would have no idea what to go off of and it would only get worst. The Force *saw* the problem and dealt with it early enough on so Luke would have things to go off on but still be humble about it.

As for Qui-Gon, I'm not saying he didn't make some mistakes, he did. A lot of them. I'm just wanted to point out that it isn't entirely his fault, or really anyones. Yes, Obi wouldn't be able to keep his sheilds up all the time but Qui would expect that too. Obi is training to be a Jedi. He still has things to learn and Qui would most likely let it pass as something more to work on. I'm not saying that it was the right thing to do, just that that might be how he dealt with it.

As for Qui's teaching, I totally argee that the best at something doesn't mean they can teach well, but Obi-Wan is/was considered one of the best Knight in the Order so Qui must have done something right.

And they were not required to admit their fears to the Council. I do not believe that kind of therapy session would have been mandated.
I agree. Besides, the Council would be swamped if they had to check in with every Jedi team.

True, Obi-Wan didn't want to be shipped off, but if Qui-Gon wasn't going to make the first move, perhaps Yoda should have stepped in. He was the one that more or less forced Qui-Gon to at least consider the boy and since he was so interested in the two, I'd think he'd make sure everything was going well both in training and in their personal lives.

Yes, Jesus's death was suppose to happen, but maybe the Jedi were suppose to fall also. Just think of what would happen if the entire Order slowly fell to the Dark Side, or at least wasn't fully of the Light and you had a couple thousand Dark Jedi running around doing what they pleased. I'd think that would be a lot worst then just having two Siths. At least the Order would be split and you'd have a civil war and then they would be unable to help anyone.

I don't think the free expression of caring would do anything but strengthen Obi. He already loved Qui - had for some time - when the battle on Naboo came around. An exchange of already present emotions would not have been a hinderance. Obi-Wan is a reasonable person and it was obvious that to help his master he had to first dispose of the Sith. Trying to heal someone when a demon with a double edged 'saber is running at you would be quite the feat. Obi loved his master with or without the return, which is one aspect which makes this little vignette - the inspiration for this entire debate - so heartwrenching.
Alright, I'll swallow my stubborness and the will to be right and step back from that one. I was meerly giving another possible outcome but even I was having problems with it.

Regarding Qui, it seems like there are WAAAY too many people who either think he a) can do no wrong or b) is only one step away from the Sith.
I take the middle ground also. I'm pretty sure I've already let everyone know that no one is prefect but also Qui is most definitly of the Light. He's just better at covering up, ahem, *most* of his mistakes.

Regarding Cyn's earlier statement on intellectual discussion inspired by fanfic...this just proves my point. I mean, any "deep thoughts

 

OK - lunch break - and, as anyone who's even remotely acquainted with me knows, I'd rather yak than eat, so here goes. Forgive me if I don't take the time to quote all of your marvelous observations - but if I do that, I'll never finish in time to get back where I need to be in half an hour.

I think it was Tim who mentioned that people see Qui-Gon as either Saint or Sinner - and nothing in between, and maybe Cas that said that writing Obi as perfect - - results in Obi-Sue accusations and Qui as less than perfect brings complaints of a lack of understanding of his character - and I know this myself, having received my share of complaints for my treatment of both.

I do not believe that either of them should be portrayed as perfect, but I do believe that, of the two, Obi-WAn is less flawed - not because of his inherent goodness, but because of the events of their lives.

Qui-Gon is portrayed as the pluperfect Jedi Master - serene, focussed, confident, gifted, wise, and insightful - but all those things seem to have been used and manipulated by Xanatos in a relationship gone so wrong it boggles the mind. When the Master accepted this particular apprentice, it seems that he was completely enchanted with the boy (and, no, we're not talking slash stuff here - get your minds out of the gutter.) Xanatos, as I recall, was remarkably gifted, very clever and bright and capable - and, basically, as brilliant as Machiavelli (sp?) with the morals of Mephistopheles. Very charming, witty, and able to manipulate his stern Master with great ease, apparently. Qui-Gon, who - let's face it - had probably never been subjected to such manipulation of his affections - was an easy target. Now I don't believe that Xani set out to be the personification of Evil; arrogance and greed simply worked to transform him into exactly that. And Qui-Gon, who loved the boy like the son he had never had, was simply taken in by his padawan's easy personality.

How completely devastating to have it all thrown back in his face - to realize that, not only had he never truly known the boy, but that his own tolerance of traits that he realized only too late should have been seen as flaws, encouraged the boy's transformation. And the love he had showered so freely became bitter resentment - and a determination to never fail so completely again.

Then comes an interval of dark years of loneliness and brooding - and becoming more and more obsessed with his own participation in the failure of his apprentice.

Enter Obi-WAn - and what the hell chance did the poor kid have against that background? I do concede that he may have been guilty of allowing Qui-Gon to hold him at arm's length and prevent him from coming too close - but the flaw in this relationship, from the very beginning, was in A. Qui-Gon's inability to trust, and B. his belief that his indulgence of Xanatos had sent the boy merrily on his way down his road to perdition.

In simple truth, I also believe that, deep inside himself, he loved Obi-Wan - even knew that his new apprentice was worth ten times his old one - but he was bound by fear of repeating his own failure, and decided, all sub-consciously, of course, that, because of his weakness, he could not give the youth his love - but he could give him what he wanted most in life - his knighthood. I believe that, in his mind, he saw the two as being mutually exclusive; if he allowed himself to love Obi-WAn, he might very well cost him the thing he desired most.

The tragedy, of course, is that - due to Obi-WAn's nature - this was not true, and both lost out on the chance to form a family unit - to be metaphorical father and son.

Very sad - and easy to see from the outside - but not when you're standing right in the middle of it.

And, for the record, I will repeat what I have said on numerous other sites:

I do NOT believe that Obi-Wan failed in training Anakin. I believe (and think that the Jedi Council agreed) that Obi-Wan was the Chosen One's only chance to resist the power of the Da

 

*laughs* I think I contemplate fictional characters more than I do real people. I agree with your summation, Cynical, and I now that I've read you TPM interludes, I don't disagree with your interpretations as heartily, if at all...

 

Musical Jedi - Quick note, on my way out - um, glad we agree - but you might want to stay away from An Untimely Frost, unless, that is, you're very flexible and very patient.

Why? Well, let's put it this way. Even the legendary serenity of the mighty Jinn would probably have been washed away in blood lust-type cravings to eat my heart - raw - with a spoon.

Later, Guys.

 

I go to work for seven hours and look what awaits hehehe

Darth_Tim - You may not like Ani but it wasn't like he was waking up every morning thinking "so, how can I turn to the Dark Side today?"

Your right, I don't like the Brat, but I don't think I implied that Anikin went out looking for the dark path. Only that, when he did chance upon it - not that he wasn't playing with fire before - he did not turn away.

And though Dooku did fall to the dark path some time before Anikin, he allowed himself to give to it's allure. It was ultimately his decision and, being trained as a Jedi, he did know what turning entailed - in regards to both power and morality. And just because someone went before Anikin does not mean that such an example should be followed.

Regarding Qui, it seems like there are WAAAY too many people who either think he a) can do no wrong or b) is only one step away from the Sith. I take a middle ground. (and if you want to bring in JA, keep in mind not everyone thinks the entire EU should be considered canon)

There are quite a few of those lurking around here, but I do concur with you - to a point. Qui - and I am using at least the early background information as canon, for the moment - was hurt, of that there is no doubt, but as I've said before, what happened to him does not in anyway justify what he the lack of emotion in his relationship to Obi. (and, bear in mind that we are spinning this off Cyn's little fic) Though I am certain such interactions were not totally intentional, the fact that they happened is enough. He had no right to damage another regardless of the hardships he had faced.

Sure, I'm not going to say Obi deserves the blame, but his student DID end up a Sith.

And Qui's student DID end up with the capacity to love despite the sore lack such feelings between him and his master. I'm not saying that Qui wasn't an able teacher and didn't teach Obi all the swordhandling techniques possible, but I'm not saying that he did, either. There is really no way to know if Obi would have flourished under guidence of another - or wilted. That can be applied to Anikin though I do not believe that his choices would have been different were he to have another master - even Qui - as his teacher. He had grown attached to his mother - as little nine year old boys should - and simply could not let her go. That is why children are brought before they have the chance to bond to their biological parents.

Swede - Yes, Obi wouldn't be able to keep his sheilds up all the time but Qui would expect that too.

Qui would expect emotions that he had never felt - at least coming from or outwardly directed towards Obi-Wan? I believe that he, in fact, did feel them and - in someway - connected them with what his apprentice actually felt for him and wanted from him, but chose - most likely subconsciously - to ignore them. To hide behind the walls built up in the aftermath of Xanatos' betrayal.

Cyn - I do not believe that either of them should be portrayed as perfect, but I do believe that, of the two, Obi-WAn is less flawed - not because of his inherent goodness, but because of the events of their lives.

Very true. Qui's mindset determined his reality. In one moment, the Jedi master's views were abruptly shattered - an awful thing to have to endure - and he was forced to develope new - and, in his mind improved - convictions. He came to believe that trust and love are flawed and - though, again, most likely in the subconscious - would only bring pain and destruction. So he was twice damaged - first by the relationship destroyed by love of Xanatos and second by the partnership poisined by lack of expressed love for Obi-Wan. And not only did he injure himself, but an innocent boy in the process.

Wow, I guess I do have convictions...

I adore this! Delving deep into a simple yet infinitely complex battle between good and evil, right and wrong...how fun!

Until the next post...

 

Leave it to CYN to incite a riot with a one post story.

 

TF - I resemble that remark.

Come on, People - need more ranting here. I need more inspiration from the other side of the street, so to speak.

CYN

PS - almost forgot - For all you red,white, and blue types out there (including me) -

HAPPY 4TH OF JULY, YANKS!!!

 

Cyn I don't normally enjoy reading about Qui's death because I'm one of those who never let him die. But this was a great story.

I think Lucas did FF readers and writers a favor by making Jinn such a butt head.He so quickly and without any obvious remorse cast Obi to the side in favor of "snot head" Anakin in Phantom Menace.

Then when Watson came along she added more depth to Jinn's inabilites to see Obi's worth.

Now writers can do so much with that.

It makes for alot of angst in the story.Angst can then give way to Mush,Mush, Mush when Qui realizes his error and of course OBI comes out on top.ALWAYS


I think that would be a good challenge for the Q/O writers on this board. See who could make Jinn the most obnoxious master and then have Obi turn him around.


PEACE Ewen

 

Honestly, I like both Qui and Obi, and I love their relationship as father and son. (Although I like Obi more.) And although neither one is perfect, I don't think that means that either one is morally corrupt. They can still make mistakes and be less than perfect, but still be good and desiring to follow what's right. And that doesn't mean a story of them straying would be inconsistent. If it was handled well, then it would not seem a far stretch of the imagination. One example is CYN's An Untimely Frost . The way Qui came across, given the circumstances and what we know of the character, was very believable, I thought. Of course, this is just my opinion on them, and I don't object to anyone portraying them as something else.

I love stories of conflict between them, stories that explore their relationship.

Not sure exactly what you want, CYN .

 

I really hate living in California at times like these. I was just waking up and heading to work when you were in the middle of this heated debate. It looks like I again catch the tail end (but I hope not)

Cyn Are you looking for a devil's advocate here? I/m not sure that I can oblige since I agree with many of your opinions expressed today. I suppose someone could argue that Anakin's turning is, at least indirectly, related to Qui-Gon's attitude towards Obi-Wan in TPM. Due to Qui dumping Obi in the COuncil Chambers, the relationship between Obi/Ani definitely did not get off to a good start. It could be argued that Obi-Wan harbored these feeling towards the boy throughout his training and that is why Anakin looked to Palpy for emotional support and, dare I say it, moral guidance. Therefore, it is a combination of environment (feeling outcast/different from others at the temple) and relationships with Obi, Palpy and Padme that helped him slide down that dark path.. I think this suggests nurture over nature. WAIT...before everyone jumps all over me and I have to grab back the flame proof shield, let me remind everyone that the foregoing was NOT my opinion. Just playing devil's advocate for a few minutes.

 

I return, ready to write another rant and, alas, I find that I do not disagree with anyone's opinion...

Where's Swede and Tim? I thoroughly enjoy and value their opposing (also concuring, of course) opinions and feel honored to disagree with them...but they're not here to disagree with!

So, this is just a bit of an up so I can say that I have done everything within my power - short of blatently saying that I believe Anikin was justified in every decision he has ever made and professing that I believe Obi-Wan was at entirely fault for the whole blowing up of planets thing - to push for more of this type of discussion.

It is amazing, as many have said, the depth of exchange that can be generated on these boards - given the right provocation. Even more so considering we are dabbling in a world of fantasy - a world that has never and will never be - where there are no concretes and reality lies in one's interpretation. But, the unbridled limits and endless views on the seemingly simplest concept or action is really what gives such conversations their fire - their drive.

So, as I cannot remember exactly where I was going prior to my description of my wonder, I would just like to invite - though there is no need as the whole thread is open to all opinions - further discussion on all that has been said and introduction of new points on which to rant.

Until later, Antigone.