PT Revisiting the prequels

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Pimpsy, Nov 1, 2012.

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  1. -NaTaLie- Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2001
    star 4
    LOL, for a dude still living with his mom he was quite a smooth operator, wasn't he? And then he managed to get into the lady's room in AOTC... jump on her bed... showing of his... lightsaber ;)
  2. sinkie Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 27, 2004
    star 1
    Yeah, I'm just not seeing it. He's a kid showing another kid his room. Period.
  3. WIERD_GREEN_MAN Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 16, 2010
    star 4
    But he was totally like hitting on her, even if he wasn't aware!
    But if I was Padme, I would not be attracted to this 9 year old Jake Lloyd.
  4. sinkie Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 27, 2004
    star 1
    I honestly never got that. I got that he was a kid that said what he was thinking "Are you a space angel? Cause I've only seen sand-blasted girls in these here parts!" and "Hey, you're like close to my age, want to see some cool stuff?"

    I get that maybe GL hoped I'd feel he was attracted to her, but I didn't. I can see how, with a lot of imagination on my part, it could be interpreted that way. All of this could have been easily avoided by having them meet in that film when they were actually old enough to find each other attractive and just get that out of the way.
  5. WIERD_GREEN_MAN Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 16, 2010
    star 4
    Anakin could have found Natalie Portman attractive as a puppy love crush.
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  6. StampidHD280pro Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2005
    star 4
    Heh. Some of us as 9 year old boys get crushes on 15 year old girls and make fast friends with them, only to be told "Oh, if you were older I might date you." Yeah... there's even a Simpsons episode like that. She gets a boyfriend her own age and it kills Bart's little heart.
  7. Zeta1127 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 4
    Anakin choking Padme was never Force choke fan service, it was Anakin losing control and ending up causing the very thing he was trying to prevent.
  8. WIERD_GREEN_MAN Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 16, 2010
    star 4
    This. For fanservice, they could have gone with a less painful one. But Anakin choking Padme had a reason. And made the point.
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  9. Mnhay27 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 1
    That's not even close to what I meant which is that Anakin was destined to fall to the dark side with or without Padme. And the attributes which would have led him there - his arrogance, his obsession with his own power, his lack of respect for authority, his desire to control and inability to let things go etc - are there from almost the moment we meet him in AOTC.

    We would hardly expect a 9-year-old to be "slobbering" over anyone would we? I mean come on, he's not exactly gonna put his arm around her, look her in the eyes and say "you like me because I'm a 9-year-old. There aren't enough 9-year-olds in your life" is he? Nonetheless, he found her beautiful enough to confuse her with an angel which shows he found her attractive even if, at such a tender age, he wasn't exactly sure what that meant. Is this really too subtle for you or are you being intentionally obtuse?

    Firstly, it's pretty damn obvious from her reaction on seeing grown up Anakin that she finds him attractive. Again, I don't see how you missed this and I believe most people would agree that this is a good starting point for figuring out "why they should be falling in love". Secondly, he is powerful, he's rebellious, and he is assigned to protect her - you really can't figure out from any of this why she falls for him? I suspect that the reason you "don't get it" is because you don't want to.

    Quite clearly at least some of his distrust for politicians and the system as it stood came from his mentor Obi Wan. Again, that's pretty obvious.

    I don't really understand what you've written here but I think it's based on your misunderstanding of my initial point.
    Last edited by Mnhay27, Nov 4, 2012
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  10. Lazy Storm Trooper Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 18, 2012
    star 4
    In issue 7 of the Marvel Star Wars comic series Han loses his reward to pirates.
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  11. Samnz Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 2
    Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny - Yoda
    Why would he do that? He made his decision when he was alone in the Jedi Temple and he gave up his Jedi indentity when he more or less killed Mace Windu and betrayed the order. There was no way back to before. He decided to save Padmé at all costs.
    Palpatine was still his only chance and the key to everything. If he went against Palpatine at that point, he would die too.

    The boy you trained; gone he is - consumed by Darth Vader - Yoda
    On Mustafar, he wasn't anymore the Anakin we knew. He was Darth Vader. He was lured by the opportunities of power of general and Padmé wasn't his first priority anymore (Lucas: The thing that breaks Padmé's heart in the end is the fact that Anakin says to her, 'Come and join me. I have all the power now. I can rule the universe and you can do it with me.' So the idea of saving her life has become a minor issue. And that's when she says, 'Wait a minute. This is not what I want and you're not the guy I fell in love with!'). He didn't think like a rational human being anymore.
    Last edited by Samnz, Nov 4, 2012
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  12. sinkie Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 27, 2004
    star 1
    It may not be close to what you meant but I reread it several times and I thought this is what you meant, no misinterpretation intended, sorry. I do see the "destiny" part there from the start because of the OT, but in watching the PT, I don't get that, especially the portrayal of Anakin in TPM. It just doesn't come through unless you're "in the know" and even then it becomes more of an intellectual exercise than a response to the material presented in that work, IMO. Anakin seems a pretty fluid individual in TPM, going with the flow, ready to help, almost the opposite of what you describe....until we see him in the elevator in AOTC and then I'm just confused where all that came from, would have been nice to see it start in a much different TPM IMO.

    Please don't resort to judging my personality thanks. I try not to do it when I debate. I don't assume anyone is impervious to subtlety or whatever. That's bringing it to a personal level it does not need to go to.

    My point was there was no clear sign, other than the angel line, that he was having a kid-crush on her. I know my kid-crushes were pretty intense leading me to do all sorts of stupid bumbling things. A few more moments like this could have helped establish that he wasn't just seeing her as a "well groomed and clean female" compared to the denizens of Tatooine. If GL was going to go with a 9 year old Anakin falling for an older girl, I think he had to give us a bit more to work with. Of course not trying to get in her clothes, but more of something, following her, finding every opportunity he could to get her attention, tell her in other ways he likes her, talking to Kenobi about her in a kid way, confiding in someone. I don't know. But at the end of the day it would have been a tough sell...which is why an older Anakin from the start would have eliminated this awkwardness and difficult-to-pull-out performance from a kid actor.


    Then you suspect wrong. I could just as easily accuse you of seeing it because you want to see it. But I won't because I believe that you do.

    I do not read her reaction as anything more than "holy crap you've grown up so fast! Last time I saw you you were a cute little kid who'd barely lost his baby fat! I'm so happy to see you looking so fit and healthy and happy and advancing in your career." Of course she wouldn't be indifferent, they "went through stuff" together. That's all we need to get from that, wasn't like she gives him a coy smile or says something super suggestive like, sheesh if only I wasn't so much older than you, wink! (joking of course). But there is not enough there is all I'm saying to force an interpretation towards attraction. I'm not to dense to get it, I was simply waiting for it to happen and I didn't see it until probably when he touches her back on Naboo.

    Only obvious after the fact. The scene you refer to not only happens after our introduction to this "rebel without a cause" but is also quite lackluster and boring and it honestly washed over me as "this shows the two future bad guys hung out a bit before that all went down". After repeated viewings I realized, ok, he's trying to sway him to a certain way of thinking but I'm just not seeing the mistrust being bred really. Just feeding his ego a bit and telling him to trust his feelings...which again I'm not sure why he feels a hostility towards democracy yet from that.

    You said "his love for Padme was what he used to justify his own lust for power and desire to control." I am saying, I'm not sure which way to read it, which came first, the love or the power lust. But from what I see on screen, I'd say it is more the love, the feeling he has had no good role models to show him how to deal with plus he's a part of a religion that forbids attachments, so he struggles with the love and his desire to stay in that relationship leads to his desire to exercise power in order to secure it. So for me the love thing comes first, which is part of what I find a bit unpalatable and poorly executed to get him from who he was to what he needs to become to tie into the OT.
    Last edited by sinkie, Nov 4, 2012
  13. DRush76 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2008
    star 4

    I do agree with your assessment here. In a way, Anakin was "destined" to fall, due to what we know what happens to him in the OT. But I do believe that the PT makes it clear that he was a fluid character and that he could have easily taken a different path. I not only see this in Anakin's character, but also in other major characters such as Obi-Wan, Yoda, Padme, Mace and the Galactic Senate. But for me, this was fluidity was apparent in all three movies.
  14. Mnhay27 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 1
    First of all, sorry for any offense caused. I didn't mean to make it personal and I shall try to be more careful in future.

    Yes, Anakin appears to be a more "fluid" individual in TPM but by the time we see him in AOTC he has grown into his advanced Jedi powers and it is this which has, perhaps understandably, made him the arrogant, resentful, controlling individual we see - as Obi Wan explains to Yoda and Windu.

    I disagree. His essentially describing Padme as one of the most beautiful creatures in the galaxy coupled with the fact that he makes her the necklace and then goes out of his way to visit her before going to the Jedi temple are clear signs of his affection for her.

    On top of her intial look, which I obviously read differently to you, is the look she gives him when they are eating en route to Naboo when he is explaining his "interpretation" of the Jedi attitude towards love. I think Natalie Portman did a good job of conveying Padme's growing attraction for him right there.

    I don't know what you're referring to - although I think you're talking about Anakin's scene with Palpatine - but I was talking about the lecture Obi Wan was giving Anakin about not trusting politicians as they stood guard outside Padme's bedroom right near the beginning of the movie. Since Obi Wan is Anakin's father figure as well as his mentor it is likely he would carry this stuff with him.

    And I think from what I see on screen that it's very clear that the desire for love is only one part of Anakin's problems with the Jedi code. I mean, right away we see him arguing with his master, displaying his arrogance and lack of respect.
  15. sinkie Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 27, 2004
    star 1
    Good points! Again, I think it is a matter of what feels emphasized for me. The necklace again is something that washed over me and I forget about it all the time. So for me the thrust of the story just doesn't pull those things out and make them read as they should for me. Probably a matter of what type of acting and story I was expecting plus the fact that I feel the acting and story don't really engage or speak to me in a way that gets through any prejudice (both towards SW expectations and films in general). I think small things like necklaces and comparisons to angels are no substitute for actual on screen action (in this case "falling in love actions" that could have been in place in TPM had they been older).

    I had forgotten about Kenobi's line about politicians. Again this speaks volumes to my expectations of such a film. Having to hang off every line in the midst of walking down a hall rather than seeing the distrust build through events, actions and decisions is part of the problem. I wanted to get what the characters stood for through a mix of actions and dialogue. I feel most of the exposition comes through dialogue in the film and therefore has no real emotional weight or resonance. This latter aspect allows one to get the information in a way that feels like it rings true, that it is based on something and not simply on a few words mumbled in a calm moment outside a door. So the information is there but it doesn't stick, it doesn't breath and live and therefore it can be stillborn for some.
  16. TOSCHESTATION Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 17, 2003
    star 4
    "As opposed to gushers who live their lives vicariously through a fictional couple and their 'romance'....o_O=D= "

    How about an actual argument that addresses the point, instead of vague smears against a segment of the audience or fandom, mmm'kay???


    I'm sorry, but Yoda's line above was not a get-out-of-jail-free card for contrived plot devices.
    Last edited by TOSCHESTATION, Nov 4, 2012
  17. StampidHD280pro Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2005
    star 4
    Interesting point, but actually that's what makes the payoff work so well in ROTS. So much of the drama is entirely in the dialogue, you're right. But it's as if they spend AOTC and the first half of ROTS telling each other that they're about to fight, but they kind of dance around it until it becomes too late. Jedi don't know how to deal with emotions.

    That all being said, critics of the prequels shouldn't put too much blame on the films themselves when understanding the movies better calls for a little re-watching. I've said this before. If you want to like the prequels as much as the OT, watch them as many times.
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  18. sinkie Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 27, 2004
    star 1
    I have re-watched and it doesn't engage me on the story or character level, the more I watch and talk about them, the more I come to understand but this does not translate into an enjoyable or engaging experience for me. But I could see someone liking it for the reasons you describe.
  19. -NaTaLie- Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2001
    star 4
    I was of a similar age to Padme and Anakin when I was watching AOTC... and going through a rocky phase in my first serious relationship... let me tell you, I could absolutely relate to what they were going through (I don't mean the actual circumstances, but the feelings in general). The awkwardness is spot on, even if the writing gets too flowery in a couple of scenes. Is it a bit of a stretch that they meet for the first time in ten years, fall in love and marry, all within a few days span? Maybe, but then again, it happened in real life as well, especially during the wartime. In the arena scenes, I can certainly believe they care about each other and that sharing danger together has created a bond between them.
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  20. Count Yubnub Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 1, 2012
    star 4
    In The Shake's "Romeo & Juliet," by some considered to be the best thing ever written in the English language, R&J meet Sunday evening, get engaged and get married on Monday and sleep together, J takes her potion on Tuesday, is discovered "dead" on Wednesday and R kills himself because of that, and J wakes up on Thursday and then kills herself because of R's death. So, 4 days. [face_dunno]
  21. -NaTaLie- Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2001
    star 4
    But, dude, it's, like, Shakespeare, not, like, some silly fairy tale in space :p
    By the way, I always thought they were stupid kids. Anakin and Padme are actually more believable. At least they considered the implications of their actions and didn't marry just to have sex.
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  22. THE PortmanLuvva Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 26, 2012
    star 2
    I agree, they are good role models in that respect. Their love is pure, there is no fakeness or imaturity in what they are doing.
  23. Count Yubnub Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 1, 2012
    star 4
    Yeah, I agree. But IMO the Anakin-Padme relationship is somewhat modeled on those more classic "courtly" romantic love dramas (including Romeo & Juliet), and marrying right after meeting each other is kind of a staple in those kinds of stories (just like dying for/because of love, but that's another issue).
  24. -NaTaLie- Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2001
    star 4
    Oh, that's true it's meant to be a retelling of a forbidden love story (Romeo & Juliet, Tristan and Isolde, etc.). The difference is, you got two socially awkward young people trying to play courtly love (i.e. knight and lady, figuratively and literally).
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  25. DRush76 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2008
    star 4

    I feel the same about "A NEW HOPE" . . . especially after my recent viewing of it.
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