PT Revisiting the prequels

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Pimpsy, Nov 1, 2012.

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  1. The Hellhammer 7SA Forum Interrogator

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    1. They controlled the surface. One ship in orbit is not gonna stop someone coming with, say, 20 ships to smash the blockade. It's a silly move to leave one ship and have your currently most important operation depend on it.

    2. So, if they didn't believe he was the Chosen One - the one thing he had going for him as a reason why he should be trained - why did they train him if he was too old, too dangerous, full of fear etc., something they all agreed upon? Makes little sense, the way they change their opinion every five minutes.

    3. To startle him? Seriously? Hahah, alright. Look, you make valid points on all others (that I simply happen not to agree with) but this is just silly. There are like...at least 15 ways Maul could've killed him. That one is just plain dumb, not to mention Maul standing still and staring for 10 seconds while Obi-Wan does his whole flipping around and chopping him in half routine.

    4. It's inappropriate to mark planetary peace with a cheap souvenir shop gift :p
    Last edited by The Hellhammer, Apr 5, 2013
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  2. Slicer87 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 2013
    star 1
    Well the TF aren't military experts, and they only needed a control ship to run the droids to control Naboo, and the Naboo or Gungans didn't have anything powerful enough to bring it down. At that time all the Naboo fighters and pilots are captured. Also the control ship has plenty of vulture droids to defend it as well as powerfull shields and large guns. Where would these 20 blockade breaking ships come from? Who's ships would they be? Why would they help the Naboo? The Republic doesn't have a standing army or navy in TPM, it was the start of the end of peace in the galaxy. Where would all these ships land where they won't be captured by droids? Even the Queen's ship was captured after they got back to Naboo.

    Besides being the chosen one, he also had more Midi-chlorians than even Yoda, so even if he wasn't the chosen one he still had that going for him to be trained. At that point it seemed the council didn't even believe in the prophecy yet alone Anakin was it, of couse they didn't believe the Sith were back either. After being proved wrong after Maul killed Qui-Gon may have helped changed their minds about Anakin. You also don't take someone's dying wish lightly either. But even in the OT the Jedi were flip-flopers, like how Yoda in TESB makes a big fit about Luke being too old and too much like his father to be trained. Then 5 minutes later changes his mind and trains Luke despite being way too old and having some of Anakin's anger in him. Yet no one complains about that because it is the holy TESB, the so called perfect film.

    What are these 15 ways Maul could have killed Obi-Wan despite being out of arm's reach with a lightsaber? The point of the scene is Maul in classic moive villan style is toying with his victim, his hubris lead to his downfall like in so many Bond films. It is like why in TESB Vader just doesn't force choke Luke until he passes out then freeze him while still passed out, instead of all that grandstanding and dueling which is much more likely to damage Luke.
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  3. Slicer87 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 2013
    star 1
    I should also add that sparks hitting your skin really hurts. When I use a handheld grinder to cut metal I have to wear heavy gloves to protect my hands from the sparks which are molten metal. So Maul creating a shower of sparks (molten metal) to rain on Obi-Wan doesn't tickle. It is a variation on the old cliché of the vilan stepping on the hero's fingers while he is hanging on for dear life.
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  4. Seagoat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2013
    star 4
    Interesting... I had kind of a reverse fortune. I first watched the saga as a kid (All six of them) and I seem to remember being kind of bored with the scenes that didn't have any action. I don't know, I guess plot just wasn't my thing back then. So a couple months ago, I decided to order the complete saga on blu-ray and rewatch them all for the first time in years. I found myself much more invested in it than I remember. I guess in the end it really all depends on your own "certain point of view".
  5. Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 3
    First, the TF's army is called "Battle hardened" in the film, which implies that it has seen a lot of action. So the TF would have some military experience.
    Second, it only took ONE fighter to bring down the droid control ship and the Naboo had several of those. And it was really nice of the TF to just leave those fighter there, fully armed and fueled.
    Third, the republic not having a navy or any kind of forces is another potential problem. If the republic lacks any and all military means to deal with the TF what do Padme and the others hope to accomplish by going to Coruscant? If they have no army/navy what could the senate actually do, assuming they did believe Padme? Give the TF a stern talking to, wag their fingers at them or send them to bed without supper? Having lots of private armies around but not a single soldier for the republic seems very implausible and frankly a stupid set up for the republic. What would have stopped the TF from simply conquering Coruscant in TPM? Apparently nothing.
    Fourth, where the ships would land? They have a whole planet to land on, that is rather huge. Or do the TF have so many droid that they can cover ALL the surface of the planet? Also, the Queens ship got captured? I don't remember that from the film.
    Fifth, Padme and the Jedi would not have known that the TF blockade was gone, at least nothing in the film suggest they know this. So why try to break a blockade that you only barely got through the last time? This would seem like suicide. And why did Qui-Gon bring a little kid with him? Seems very risky to bring a kid into a warzone and only after quite a bit of fighting does he tell him to hide, in a fueled and armed figher. I don't know, but a fueled and armed F-16 doesn't strike me as the safest place for a child.


    I look at it differently. Yoda clearly tests Luke by acting the way he does. Luke fails and Yoda says he can't train him. Obi-Wan then have to come in and persuade Yoda to change his mind and Yoda eventually relents but still has doubts about Luke. Then when Luke leaves, Yoda brings those doubts up again and tells Obi-Wan that he was wrong about Luke and now things are worse.
    So we see him make a choice then how he changes his mind and later still he brings that choice back up.
    ESB has flaws, like why doesn't Yoda and Obi-Wan tell Luke the truth when it is clear that he will leave? It would be far better that he learns if from them than from Vader.

    [/QUOTE]

    Oh, Force-pushing him away, dropping Qui-Gons body on him, dropping anything on him, do a quick Force choke, and so on.
    But Maul's teasing I can buy but him just standing there with a dumb look on his face when Obi-Wan jumps out and over him makes him far too stupid for me.

    Vader wanted to test Luke, that much is clear, he wants to see how powerfull he is. If he is strong then he might be usefull to Vader in taking on the emperor, if he is too weak then that plan is out.
    Vader even comments when Luke falls into the pit, "All too easy, perhaps you are not as powerfull as the emperor has thought." Through the entire fight Vader mostly toys with Luke but doesn't want to kill him. Only after Luke manages to score a hit does Vader stop playing around and quickly disarms Luke.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
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  6. The Hellhammer 7SA Forum Interrogator

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    star 5
    ^^ No further elaboration necessary, hahah.
  7. Darth Dominikkus Jedi Grand Master

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    Apr 5, 2013
    star 3
    There are a lot of "differences" between watching the prequels when they were released and then returning to them years later. You see the immaturity of the actors at points, and you realize that the dialogue is a little easy to guess, and, even though we already know what's going to happen, you see that the story is easy to immediately guess. However, I'm still in lone with the prequels and the story that Lucas told about Anakin's downfall, despite how critical I am about it.
  8. Slicer87 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 2013
    star 1
    Oh, Force-pushing him away, dropping Qui-Gons body on him, dropping anything on him, do a quick Force choke, and so on.
    But Maul's teasing I can buy but him just standing there with a dumb look on his face when Obi-Wan jumps out and over him makes him far too stupid for me.

    Vader wanted to test Luke, that much is clear, he wants to see how powerfull he is. If he is strong then he might be usefull to Vader in taking on the emperor, if he is too weak then that plan is out.
    Vader even comments when Luke falls into the pit, "All too easy, perhaps you are not as powerfull as the emperor has thought." Through the entire fight Vader mostly toys with Luke but doesn't want to kill him. Only after Luke manages to score a hit does Vader stop playing around and quickly disarms Luke.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface[/quote]

    One fighter that flew into the hanger bay with a force user pilot and was almost captured since it overheated and shutdown like the jetcar in THX1138, which got a lucky shot into the heart of the control ship. One of the Naboo pilots state's the TF's shields are too strong for their fighters. We see the Vulture droids outnumber the Naboo fighters that are being mowed down. The space battle was looking very grim until Anakin saved their butts, just like Han saving Luke's butt who then saved the Rebel's butts because the plot says Han has a change of heart. But then it is like how one fighter blew up a moon sized battle station 30 years after TPM without even flying inside of it and using magic and saved by a large target freighter out of nowhere, but that is okay somehow. The laser towers could mow dowm small nimble fighters but not a large beat up freighter, come on. Also why Tarkin refused to send out his own fighters, only Vader's fighters fought the Rebels. In both cases the villans were gulity of underestimating the heros.

    The Republic had the Jedi to defend Coruscant and other worlds of the Republic, the TF didn't even want to fight the Republic itself until they merged with the other members that made up the CIS in AOTC to create a droid army large enough to overwelm the Jedi.

    Nute informs the Sith they found the Queen's ship after it landed, hence they captured it. Any ship that would land on Naboo would be attacked by the TF's ground forces. So where could these 20 ships land and deploy their forces without being attacked while doing so? It is really bad to try to unload your forces while under attack.

    Who could Qui-Gon leave Anakin with when he went back to Naboo? Qui-Gon tells Anakin that while he is not allowed to train him, he wants Anakin to stay close to him and pay attention. The Jedi don't have babysitting, not the Queen's ship, maybe the Gungan's hiding place, or Qui-Gon thought Anakin would be safest with him and Obi-Wan until Maul showed up. At least a fueled and armed fighter is also armored and provides protection, better than leaving him out in the open. Not the wrost place to protect a kid. Then again how come Leia, Han, Luke, etc know the MF is being tracked, still go to Yavin 4 anyway? Seems pretty stupid thing to do really. Then Leia and the Rebels just stood around on Yavin 4 instead of evacuating their base in case their fighters failed, another stupid move. Also how come Han waits 3 years before going to payoff Jabba or why the Imperial fleet chases just the MF instead of the Rebel fleet.

    Just like Qui-Gon's dying wish for Anakin to be trained persuaded the council to allow it.

    Maul was showering Obi-Wan with sparks, droplets of molten metal which really hurts when they hit your skin. If you were a gearhead like Lucas you would know this. Yeah Maul did goof up but he was probably in shock Obi-Wan just did flip over him, he wasn't "mindful" like he should have been. However Obi-Wan did know what to do when Anakin tried to pull that trick on him in ROTS. Then again I don't buy Leia being able to choke a being much larger and stronger than her. Or how none of Jabba's guards didn't came to his aid, but few seem to complain about it, maybe because of the metal bikini.

    While I agree Vader was testing Luke, it is not outright stated in the film so other people can hyperbole that it was stupid and needless, that Vader should have just force choaked Luke till he passed out.
    Last edited by Slicer87, Apr 5, 2013
  9. Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 3
    The film shows that it was quite possible to fly into the TF ship and once inside you can do far more damage than from the outside. So why not do a kamikaze run? Fly in and fire off all your weapons.
    Anakin flew in by accident so it didn't seem that it was all that hard, the other pilots didn't seem to consider the idea. So taking out the TF ship was not all that hard.

    There are a number of differences, the rebels had a plan and Luke followed that plan, but instead of the computer, he used the Force. Anakin blowing up the TF ship seemed far more random and accidental. Also the laser towers had problems with the X-Wings, this is both stated and shown in the film. Also the laser towers stopped shooting when Vaders ship were nearby, which makes sense since they didn't want to shoot down their own people.

    But the Jedi aren't soldiers, they even say this. And why bother with troops, simply bombard the planet from space. If the republic lacks ships to defend it then they are helpless against planetary bombardment. And the Jedi won't be able to do anything unless they have military ships of their own.
    And this still doesn't answer the question what Padme hoped that the senate would do, if they have no army/navy/military to send, what is the point?

    Since Padme and the others were not captured then Nute found the ship after it had been abandoned, big difference.
    Again we are talking about the whole surface of a planet here, do you not realize how huge that is?
    For the TF to be able to cower all that area they would require millions if not billions of droids.
    And why would 20 ships bother to land? Simply attack the TF ship and blow it up, war over.

    Oh, perhaps the place that the queen lived while on Coruscant, if that is her place or Palpatines appartment is not clear but that place is readily avalible.

    Stay close to him while they go into war? If Qui-Gon wants to get Anakin killed then his plan makes sense, otherwise it doesn't. He could have left Anakin on Coruscant or at the Gungan hideout.
    But he doesn't, he drags a little kid into a war zone where there is every chance he could get hurt or killed. And since Qui-Gon thinks this is the chosen one, his actions makes even less sense. What would he do if the chosen one got killed? A fuled and armed fighter is also quite explosive and the wrong push of a button can lead to bad things, like the ship flying into a wall or blowing up.

    Why are you constantly dragging in the OT into this? I have never said that the OT has no flaws or there are no holes or inconsitencies. We are talking about if certain actions makes sense in the PT.
    That there are actions that don't make total sense in the OT is irrelevant.
    Leia is the one who thinks the ship is being tracked, not Han.

    Vader saw the MF leave and clearly gave direct orders to capture that ship.
    I actually have done some welding and things like that so yes I did know this, thank you. But when you are holding on for your life you are able to ignore pain a lot longer than normal.
    In any event Maul had other options than just sparks, that is all I am trying to say.
    Knowing what to do if someone jumps over you when you are armed with a sword isn't very difficult.
    That is a very risky move because it leaves you very open for an attack. So Maul is stupid for not doing anything. And if Obi-Wan needed his experince with Maul to know what to do then he isn't very bright either.
    [/QUOTE]

    Why must every action be spoken by the characters for it to be clear what they are doing?
    When Obi-Wan tries to calm the two guys in the bar, he doesn't first say"I am going to try and calm these guys down by getting them a drink." He says "This little one is not worth the effort, now let me get you something." His intent is clear.

    Same thing with Vader, what he says and what he does makes it clear what he is doing and why.
    He expresses disappointment when Luke seem to be defeated too quickly. He fights Luke one handed at first, showing him around with ease. He comments about Luke's controll of fear but then taunts him to get angry, which is crucial if Vader hopes to turn Luke. Later he makes his plan clear, they will together take on the emperor and rule the galaxy. So to that end Vader needs a Luke that both has some strength and that he might turn.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
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  10. Original Oatmeal Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 22, 2013
    star 1
    The characters in the PT had to be inferior to the characters in the OT because every film in a series should get better than the previous films before it. The PT is also like the Titanic which is full of stress, pressure, shock, awkward. It had to be boring and scary because the Republic was like the Titanic. It was sinking. That is awkward. I hope the next 6 films can have even better character development than the first 6.
    Last edited by Original Oatmeal, Apr 6, 2013
  11. Slicer87 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 2013
    star 1
    That is part of the point in the PT films is that the Republic had become complacent during the long lasting peace, even the Jedi. This is why the Republic was starting to rot from the inside, which has happened many times in real history. I would not call the PT characters inferior, but they are supposed to be more flawed and help screw up the galaxy. The OT characters do end up freeing the galaxy after fighting hard in 3 films.

    As for the Naboo pilots going on a kamikaze run into the TF ship, Sam you forgot another difference, the Rebels had the blueprints to the Death Star so they knew it's weak spot, the Naboo didn't have blueprints to TF battleships so they didn't know that was an option. Then again, how come the Rebels didn't just bomb the Endor shield generator, or when the crap hit the fan, ram their crusiers into the second Death Star and shield generator. Also why the Empire didn't fly Tie bombers under the Rebel's Hoth shield and bomb Echo base? Qui-Gon wasn't allowed to teach Anakin, so he brought him along to observe, maybe not the safest choice but Qui-Gon made choices like that. Other thing is he may not have trusted Anakin to anyone else except Obi-Wan. As for Maul, he could have done other things to outright kill Obi-Wan instead of toying with him, but that kind of shows Maul wasn't the best warrior since he did toy with Obi. It seemed Maul was taken fully by surprised like many Bond villans and it is clear he froze when he should have acted to defend himself. Maul wasn't supposed to be a Vader cailber Sith. I don't think Obi-Wan learned what to do with his fight from Maul, he knew what Maul should have done and cut Anakin up in ROTS, it is supposed to be irony. Yes another OT comparison, but how come no one ever complains when Obi-Wan fights Darth Vader on the Death Star that he spins leaving himself open and exposed to be stabbed in the back by Vader. Also why Vader doesn't stab Obi-Wan while he spins? Pretty stupid of the both of them really. Again I see alot of PT OT double standards and I am tired of seeing so much of it. Yet many defend having double standards and come up with all kinds of excuses for the OT but denounce Lucas for the same problems in the PT.

    I agree with that, but many do not or understand this. For example, I know Yoda was acting obnoxious to test Luke, but most fans still say he was just crazy from being alone for so long. I have been ganged up on many arguments stating Yoda was just testing Luke. Many PT detractors use this kind of false argument all the time to attack the PT films.
  12. Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 3
    1) The Naboo people don't need blueprints to know where the entrance to the hangar bay is, that is very visible from the outside.
    And you also don't need blueprints to know that shooting of torpedoes/weapons INSIDE a ship will do a lot more damage.
    So they did talk about how the shield of the TF might be to strong for their weapons so the idea of a suicide run into the hangar would have been a very possible option.

    2) The Endor shield protects Endor and the generator along with the DS2, the hologram shows this as does the need for the imperials to lower the shield for Han and co to be able to land. The shield can not be brought down from the outside, so bombarding Endor from space or ramming the shield woud accomplish nothing. In fact the Empire is trying to get the rebels ships to fly into the shield, hence why they are jamming the signal and it is only Lando who puts two and two together and breaks off.

    3) Can TIE bombers function inside a planets atmosphere? I know of no instance in the films where TIEs fly in the atmosphere of a planet.
    So this might not be an option and unless you have evidence that they could do this, it is not a problem.

    4) Qui-Gon could have left Anakin on Coruscant for a couple of days, that would be the safest and most sensible option. But he instead brought a kid into a war zone so that Anakin would just happen to hide in the fighter, just happen to push the right buttons and just happen to fly up and just happen to fly inside and fire of his weapons and just happen to blow of the TF ship. Sorry, to me this is very contrived and the writing is very much the plot needs this to happen and so it does.

    5) About Maul, he has shown to have some smarts, he quickly separated Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan from each other as then he could deal with one at a time. But at then end he has to become really stupid in order for Obi-Wan to win. And that is something that bugs me in all films, where a character have to become stupid in order for the plot to work. Also why couldn't we have the same secondary sith villain in all three films? One that is shown again and again as a dangerous and credible force and one that Anakin finally kills and this adds to Anakin's skill that he is able to take out this deadly enemy. So excuse that Maul was supposed to be a weak villain is not very good. Also I found that he didn't have much of a character so I found him uninteresting.

    6) There have been a lot of complaints against the duel in ANH from many differnt people. Obi-Wans lightsaber going out, the rather akward coreography and so on. That fight suffered from both technical limitations, they had to avoid hitting each others lightsaber too hard or the stick would break. David Prowse had little experince with sword fighting and Sir Alec was not a young man. So that fight from a technical level isn't very good.
    I like the emotions involved and the build up is quite good, but I won't say it is flawless, far from it.

    This thread is about the PT and unless the poster you are responding to have said that the OT is without flaws while complaing that the PT has flaws your argument is beside the point.

    Bye for now.
    The Guarding Dark
  13. Jcuk Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 16, 2013
    star 4
    Also I found that he didnt much of a character so I found him uninteresting. That statement could be labelled at a lot of people in the PT.
  14. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Some sources suggest that there are two shields not one.

    The shield we see on the hologram appears to cover only the DS2 and a tiny circle on Endor.

    In Star Wars Infinities: Return of the Jedi- the Rebels on Endor only manage to destroy the Endor shield- allowing the Falcon to drop into Endor's atmosphere and make an attack run on the DS2 shield- and then starfighters attack the DS2.
  15. darth_mccartney Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 3, 2008
    star 2
    What!?! The PT characters are awesome! Just as good as the CT characters!
  16. Jcuk Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 16, 2013
    star 4
    That's cool, that's your opinion but everyone looks at them differently. The only 'character' I found interesting was Palpatine. No one was funny (human characters) no one was interesting (apart from Palps). I couldn't relate to any of them and I just didnt end up caring what happened. But that's just me.
  17. Slicer87 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 2013
    star 1
    1. not if it didn't knock out the droid control, as far as they knew, damaging the hangers would not damage the droid control systems.

    2. Nothing in the film states the Endor Bunker was protected by the shield, if it did the Rebel strike team or Ewokes could not walk to it without getting fried.

    3. Ties chase the MF though the atmosphere of Bespin in TESB, so yes they can function inside a planets atmosphere.

    4. Except he wanted to start training Anakin without training him, bending the rules as he usually does. Being a Jedi is not the safest job, and if Anakin has enough prescience to pilot podracers, then he had enough to not get himself killed in a battle. Our own US army used to have boys play drums on battle fields, the Jedi and the Star Wars culture may view this differently than our modern culture would.

    5. That is simplly your opinion which I do not share, Maul was supposed to be a throw away villan who still had more character than Boba Fett ever did and who flew onto the skiff instead of snipering from the barge, again really stupid. But then it is like Vader stands by Palps in ROTJ after he ordered Luke to kill him but refused. It was pretty naive of Palps to trust Vader at all after that.


    Again your opinion.
  18. Slicer87 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 2013
    star 1
    I want to add more to my response to 5. smart people can still do some stupid things they should know better than in real life, and a infallible character is a rather boring character. All the Star Wars characters in all 6 films pay for their mistakes, some with their lives such as Maul, Jango, Dooku, Gunray, Tarkin, Boba, Jabba, etc. Maul wasn't a weak villian, he was a strong Sith, but not strong enough, you are twisting my words again. Just because he wasn't Vader caliber doesn't make Maul weak, and even Vader like Maul underestimated Obi-Wan in ROTS and again in ANH. In ROTS, Vader nearly died and ended up weaker because of Obi-Wan. By killing Obi-Wan in ANH, Vader only made him more powerful. I found it more interesting that Maul, Dooku, and Grievous represented the different traits that Vader would possessed, like they were his building blocks. I think it was better Lucas went that way instead of just copying the OT.





    Also I want to point out, wither you intended it or not, but you and other posters have been implying the PT is more flawed than the OT as fact and I have been proving you this is not the case, just your opinions.
  19. Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 3
    1) Shooting of weapons or torpedoes INSIDE the ship WILL do far more damage than shooting at it from the outside. The hangar is quite big and explosions will spread to the rest of the ship, also the main reactor was also inside the hangar, a not very sensible choice. The TF fighters wanted to hurt the TF ship, so one ship flying inside and shooting of all of it's weapons will do just that.

    2. Wrong, look at the rebel briefing, the whole of Endor is protected by the shield which means that rebels ships can not get to to it from the outside. Also the whole of Endor was shielded, which is why Han and co had to give a passcode to the imperials for them to lower the shield so they could fly down. Once they are down, they have no problem to reach the shield generator as the they are behind the shield.

    3. Ok I had forgotten that, but still could TIE bombers fly down and UNDER the rebel shield? The rebels don't use their X-Wings when flying over Hoth, either when looking for Luke and Han nor in the battle, which suggests that space crafts are not that usefull in flying that close to a planets surface. Also the rebels said that they had problems adapting their surface ships to the cold of Hoth, which could be another reason why TIEs might not be usefull.

    4. Flying in a pod race is VERY different from being in a war zone, I don't follow this logic at all. Anakin could easily have gotten himself killed, he has no weapon, no training. Do the Jedi start their new jedi to be by dropping them into a war zone and see who survives? I very much doubt that.
    How long has it been since the US army used drummer boys in the battle field? And did all those drummer boys survive the battle?
    The US army also have used weapons of mass destruction, like nukes, I don't see the Jedi use weapons like that.
    Why didn't the republic forces in AotC simply blast Geonosis from space or from the air once they had got all the Jedi out of there?
    Why use WWI tactics when you have access to orbital bombardment?

    5. I have never compared Maul to Boba Fett, whom I consider to be not very intersting either. So if he has more character than Boba Fett, big deal. Both have very little in terms of intersting characters. Tarkin had far more character than either of them and was far more interesting and meancing.
    As did Vader in ANH, despite having a rather small role. If you can have a more developed villain instead of a throw away one, why not?
    In short Maul was all style and no substance, he existed to fight well, kill Qui-Gon and then die. His role could have been carried out by a rifle.
    Dooku was a step up, shame that he was given little to do in AotC and was killed of too quickly in RotS.


    [/QUOTE]

    Not really, just saying that you are attributing opinions to me that I have not given in this thread.
    I don''t think the OT is without flaws but the ones you have brought up and not very serious or indeed flaws at all.
    For the record, I think both the PT and OT has flaws but I favour the OT because I like the characters more, simple as that.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
  20. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    This is the picture I'm talking about:

    Show Spoiler
    [IMG]


    I'm not denying that Endor has a shield- just that the one shown on the hologram, clearly does not protect the whole of Endor itself.

    Either the landing pad is inside that very small circle- or there is a second shield, not shown on the hologram, protecting the whole of Endor
    Last edited by Iron_lord, Apr 8, 2013
  21. Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 3
    Not being infallible and being very stupid are two very different things.
    Ex. say that a regular guy, slightly overweight and untrained, takes on a tenth degree black belt and wins. Will this make the regular guy look impressive of would it just look stupid? Having the hero or villain win because the opponent is stupid is weak in my view because it paints both sides in a bad light. The looser for looking dumb and the winner because he or she did not beat a credible foe, instead he or she beat a knucklehead.
    Ex. take the film Battlefield Earth, in that film the bad guys are to a man, total retards, so when the good guys beat them, it isn't impressive because the villains are so incompetent that it is hard to understand that they could pose a danger to anyone.

    Other ex, the villain in the first two Terminator movies. They are very dangerous, deadly foes and when the heroes finally beat them it gives the feeling of a great accomplishment.

    I found Maul to be a weak villain, not really due to his strength of lack of there of, but rather his lack of character. A good villain, to me, is one who challenges the hero and is also interesting to see. A good villain, like say Magneto in the X-Men films, I like not really because he is powerfull, but because he has an interesting character and poses a challenge to the heroes.
    I found Dooku much more interesting than Maul because he actually had a character and a backstory that was interesting. But sadly he was underused. He should have been in TPM and in more of RotS in my view.
    Griev I found to be a total waste of time. He had a character, an annoying one, and was all talk, no delivery. He spent most of the film running away and when he did stand his ground he quickly was defeated.

    Bye for now.
    Blackboard Monitor
  22. Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 3
    Ok I stand corrected but the point remains, Han and co had to get the imperials to lower the deflector shield in order to land on Endor. Which means the generator is protected from air attacks. Also, Endor is a whole planet, on the scale that hologram was, that area would be quite big. Say the size of Switzerland.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
    Last edited by Samuel Vimes, Apr 8, 2013
  23. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    That might depend on if you're going with 900 km Death Star or 160 km Death Star.

    The curvature of Endor relative to the Death star in many shots, of which this is just an example:

    Show Spoiler
    [IMG]


    strongly supports the notion that the hologram is Not To Scale. Which may, depending on Endor's actual size, suggest a small size for the DS2.

    Even if Endor was Earth-sized, a 900 km DS2 would be problematic- and the EU has given us a very small Endor, less than half the diameter of Earth, at 4900 km (it must be very dense).

    A small Endor + a small DS2 would mean a small protected zone.
  24. Jcuk Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 16, 2013
    star 4
    The key word there is 'suggest'. Not a definitive 'is'
  25. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Official vehicle sizes don't always make sense. They sometimes get retconned after much fan commentary. The Executor springs to mind.
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