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Senate Revolution in the Muslim World

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by Lowbacca_1977, Jan 28, 2011.

  1. DarthBoba

    DarthBoba Manager Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 29, 2000

    Yeah, that lies the problem, doesn't it? Hopefully Morsi peacefully leaves...seems unlikely though.
     
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  2. Ghost

    Ghost Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Oct 13, 2003
    The military let Morsi do his own thing.
    Morsi did a shady power grab, and didn't really play fairly... the military let Morsi grab power away from them.
    Basically, Morsi wanted to become the new Mubarak, not the first democratic leader.
    But the people have reacted against Morsi, and the protests have grown to the point where they're destabilizing the country as much as the anti-Mubarak protests were.

    Also, it's important to note that the Defense Minister who delivered this ultimatum was appointed by Morsi. And that the military had been somewhere-between supportive of Morsi and neutral, in regard to the protests, until this ultimatum was delivered.

    So it's not exactly a black-and-white case. A country does not always make the transformation to a democracy smoothly. Right now, I'm leaning to it being better if the military intervenes and rights the course. Turkey was basically ruled by its military until about 10 years ago, they kept that country stable and mostly-secular.
     
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  3. Darth Guy

    Darth Guy Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Aug 16, 2002
    Are secularism and stability our only criteria?
     
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  4. Lord Vivec

    Lord Vivec Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Apr 17, 2006
    Yes, which is why Ghost supports Assad, yes?
     
  5. Jabba-wocky

    Jabba-wocky Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    May 4, 2003
    Which "shady power grab" did Morsi conduct?
     
  6. Lord Vivec

    Lord Vivec Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Apr 17, 2006
    The one where he was a Muslim.
     
  7. Ghost

    Ghost Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Oct 13, 2003
    This fall, Morsi granted himself unlimited powers, the power to legislate by decree without judicial oversight or judicial review. And he used the powers to push through a new constitution that he wanted.

    That's when the protests began. After getting what he wanted with the new constitution, and facing massive protests, Morsi then somewhat-limited the scope of his decrees but did not get rid of them.

    Morsi decree undermines Rule of Law
    http://www.hrw.org/news/2012/11/26/egypt-morsy-decree-undermines-rule-law
    Freedom House Denounces Morsi Power-Grab in Egypt
    http://www.freedomhouse.org/article/freedom-house-denounces-morsi-power-grab-egypt
    Egypt’s President Morsi takes sweeping new powers
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/world...87d716-34cb-11e2-92f0-496af208bf23_story.html
    Egyptian Judges Challenge Morsi Over New Powers
    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/25/w...-retract-edict-to-bypass-judges-in-egypt.html
    Egypt Courts suspend work
    http://www.salon.com/2012/11/28/egyptian_courts_suspend_work_to_protest_morsi_decrees/singleton/
    No, so are human rights, balance of power, and democracy. Hopefully the military will restore that. See above.

    See responses in this post.

    When have I ever been biased against Muslims? And I have been defending Morsi from unfair accusations for the past year or two, from ignorant people who think the Muslim Brotherhood are just like Al Qaeda. I've been saying give him a chance.







    Has no one else been paying attention to Egypt for the last year?
     
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  8. yankee8255

    yankee8255 Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    May 31, 2005
    You're overlooking the most important factor in all of this -- the economy. If Egyptians had jobs, they'd be there instead of out on Tahrir square, and Morsi would be sitting comfortably in his seat, consolidating power. Or maybe Mubarak would ebven still be in power.

    When he was elected, Morsi won a pretty solid majority of the vote, but those who voted against him really oppose him and the Muslim Brotherhood. With the economy continuing to be stuck in decline, his support has eroded and a large chunk of his support has gone over to the "opposition".
     
  9. Ghost

    Ghost Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Oct 13, 2003
    That's because Morsi didn't attempt to carry out any of his election promises. The MB was good with providing social services when in exile, but neglected that when they came to power. When it came to the runoff vote, it was between Morsi and Mubarark's guy, so many Egyptians who didn't like Morsi voted for him so the revolution wouldn't be in vain. For some reason, Morsi was governing like he was elected dictator and by overwhelming consensus, when the opposite was true. Most of the protesters were young and secular, but they were left out under Morsi's rule.

    Anyways, the Egyptian military has just announced that Morsi is out. A new constitutional committee will form, forming a new government with the consensus of all the Egyptian people, and then new elections will be held by the end of the year. The supreme court's Chief Justice is the President for the transition period.



    A good article from earlier today, that I've see on a few websites:

     
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  10. Emperor_Billy_Bob

    Emperor_Billy_Bob Jedi Grand Master star 7

    Registered:
    Aug 9, 2000
    Egypt isn't even like Syria, where there is at least a lesser-evil to "cheer" for.
     
  11. Ghost

    Ghost Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Oct 13, 2003
    ?

    There have now been two waves of massive but peaceful protests by young, secular, Egyptians. One against Morsi, one against Mubarak. Both times, the military has took the side of the protesters, and protected their rights to free speech, assembly, and protest.

    What's bad with that?
     
  12. Emperor_Billy_Bob

    Emperor_Billy_Bob Jedi Grand Master star 7

    Registered:
    Aug 9, 2000
    Because the military's material interest never lie in actual change. What they are doing now is best viewed as a way to provide an outlet for dissent without actually changing anything.

    That, and, if I am reading the situation correctly, the military is basically in favor of a booming neoliberal economy whilst the Muslim Brotherhood are Moderate Islamist.
     
  13. Ghost

    Ghost Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Oct 13, 2003
    How do you know that? They were working with Morsi until recently. The Egyptian people are now energized and feel empowered, and conditions are ripe for a strong civil society to form.

    I don't know about the military's economic stance, but there's a wide range of political parties in Egypt now, and most tend to support stronger social services. Besides, the military has given power to the Chief Justice to run a technocratic government for the transition, and there will be a new elected government within a year.

    It could go badly, but I'm optimistic.


    Maybe aPPmaSTer can give us some clarity...
     
  14. Darth Guy

    Darth Guy Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Aug 16, 2002
    And the military poised to throw out the winner of that election if he proves unpopular enough.
     
  15. Ghost

    Ghost Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Oct 13, 2003
    As I said above, Morsi wasn't just unpopular. He had derailed the revolution, given himself too much power, and was not good at governing. Human rights and balance of power are just as if not even more important to a functioning democracy than elections.
     
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  16. VadersLaMent

    VadersLaMent Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Apr 3, 2002
    Countdown until right wing media spins this into "Obama better watch out because we might do this to him" 3..2..oh, 4th of July weekend. We'll have to wait until Monday.
     
  17. Darth Guy

    Darth Guy Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Aug 16, 2002
    Morsi was overstepping his bounds, but that's not why the military overthrew him. If they were interested in human rights and democracy, they wouldn't have waited 30 years to get rid of the last guy.

    EDIT: God forbid the revolutionaries decide to focus their wrath on the military establishment.
     
  18. Ghost

    Ghost Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Oct 13, 2003
    The military can adapt and transform itself too. Yes, the massive protests were the catalyst, but not the cause.

    I'm optimistic, but we're just going to have to wait and see.
     
  19. Lord Vivec

    Lord Vivec Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Apr 17, 2006
    Never would have guessed
     
  20. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2000
    I'm not a fan of Morsi and I'm not happy he won, but I've gotta say that having a tradition of overthrowing dudes you don't like sets a bad precedent. If you want to be a modern secular democracy, you have to take the bitter with the sweet: if your guy loses the election, you wait until the next one, you don't jump on a narrow pretext to overthrow him in a coup. Egypt is never going to have stability if they have yearly revolutions backed by the military.

    I mean, it could be worse: they could be Syria. But I mean, for an economy that depends largely on tourism, they're doing a great job ensuring that foreigners aren't going to be keen on visiting Egypt, well, ever. :p
     
  21. GenAntilles

    GenAntilles Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 24, 2007
    Obviously the Egyptian military and citizenry have been reading the Expanded Universe and have concluded the Galactic Alliance transition of power is the norm.

    That said glad Morsi is gone, could've been a good leader, but he kept trying to become the next Mubarak. Hopefully now Egyptian leaders will get the message the people won't tolerate dictators and wannabee dictators.
     
  22. Point Given

    Point Given Mod of Literature and Community star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Dec 12, 2006
    I'm on the fence about this but the fact that Morsi had essentially given himself immunity from the Egyptian justice system makes me more likely to support this coup. Who knows what his endgame might have been?
     
  23. heels1785

    heels1785 JCC/PT/New Films Manager star 7 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Dec 10, 2003
    It sure is hard to distinguish between protests and celebration.
     
  24. Kimball_Kinnison

    Kimball_Kinnison Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 28, 2001
    Exactly.

    Need I remind everyone of what was written 237 years ago?
    Go and read the list of complaints in the Declaration of Independence, and you can see a lot of similarity with what Morsi was trying to do. The only real difference was that Morsi's government wasn't "long established".
     
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  25. Jabba-wocky

    Jabba-wocky Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    May 4, 2003
    This has been pretty well oversold. Morsi's moves were in response to a series of questionable judgments coming out of the (Mubarak appointed) judiciary. In situations where both sides of overly-politicized organs of state are throwing pronouncements at each other, I don't know that it makes sense to single out one side as excessive.

    More broadly, the fundamentals of this country are especially terrible. While Morsi did a relatively poor job, a fair amount of his collapsing popular support is decoupled from anything a President could even influence. Much more importantly, this was pretty nakedly an attempt to re-contest a lost election, as "doing a bad job" is not and has never been grounds for over-throwing a popularly-elected government. Much less the arrest of the senior leadership of the party formerly in power, open-firing on peacefully protesting supporters of said group, and suspending a constitution which was, even in light of the Supreme Constitutional Court's latest rulings, apparently still in force.

    It is not yet entirely clear what is happening as of yet. Streams of "yay freedom" posts, in light of this, are certainly oversimplistic, and in the long run may well be just plain wrong.