Senate Revolution in the Muslim World

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by Lowbacca_1977, Jan 28, 2011.

  1. Likewater Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2009
    star 4
    Personally I say Morsi got gypped, While undoubtedly Morsi was grabbing power, what else could he do?

    After all he must work within a political structure, the USA has multiple presidents that have preformed power grabs so they can achieve an objective.

    As for corruption, new governments are often lousy with corruption they need time to get their acts together. Of course if the had any idea what it was doing it would have worked harder to maintain Morsi's image as a man of the people. The MB just had it's first harsh lesson in Public Relations.

    They need to stop bashing the west and hiring western public relations specialists because if Egypt starts pulling these popular...recalls Egypt might become a confederacy.
  2. Ghost Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 13, 2003
    star 6
    Back in Syria, Al Qaeda killed a commander of the Free Syrian Army, and now the FSA has declared war on the AlQaeda-allied rebels as well as the Assad regime.

    http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/07/12/us-syria-crisis-idUSBRE96B08A20130712

  3. black_saber Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 4, 2002
    star 4
    Whats really strange is the vast majority of the egyptian people back in 2011 voted for the muslim brotherhood and the same people burned american and israeli flags during the gaza war in the late 2008- and early 2009 wanted a new regime on july 3rd that was not friendly with israel and now they want the muslim brotherhood out not because of oppposing Islamism but the ecnomic reason and moris was taking too much power, and what worries my now since I am jewish and proud supporter of israel is the new secular goverment might break the peace treaty with Israel. Morsi kept the peace treaty with Israel but that was too risky to make peace with him.

    Mohamed ElBaradei as a secular said that the peace treaty was with muburck, not the egyptian people. It just seems that the situation in the muslim world gets worse all the time. He may have been a noble peace prize winner, But Arafat won the noble peace prize and that was BS. Mohamed ElBaradei might be the new nasser of egypt and the neo-pharaoh at the same time.

    When the new elections comes in januray, I have a feeling that its going to be some kind of a salafists state with a stronger sharia law. I hope I am wrong about it.

    EDIT: The Arab spring may have brought us new demorcatic movements but it also gave us new lslamists extremists parties and so far the zealots are winning.
    Last edited by black_saber, Jul 22, 2013
  4. SuperWatto Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Sep 19, 2000
    star 5
    Blacksaber, sorry to say, your facts are as bad as your grammar is.
    "vast majority", "the same people", "now they want", all false.
    And did you really say muburck?
    Last edited by SuperWatto, Jul 22, 2013
  5. Alpha-Red Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 25, 2004
    star 5
    Morsi won by a bare majority, not a vast majority. Given Morsi's very divisive style of governing, it's not a surprise that many of those who voted for him no longer support him.

    And I'm really tired of hearing people saying "omg, what if Egypt breaks the peace treaty with Israel??". First it was "oh noes, the Muslim Brotherhood hates Israel, they're going to break the peace treaty!" but now it's "the secularists hate Israel, they're going to break the peace treaty!". Why on earth would any Egyptian government break the treaty when abiding by it is clearly in their interest? Secondly, the Egyptian military is still running the show as of the moment, and one of the things they insist on is keeping the peace treaty with Israel. Lastly, in the very unlikely event that war breaks out between Israel and Egypt again, and in the even less likely event that Israel somehow loses on the battlefield, you know what would happen? America would intervene...and that would be the end of that.

    Seriously you complain about the Islamists, and now that they're gone you complain about the secularists. If anything, ElBaradei is probably less hostile towards Israel than Morsi...or have you forgotten the "Jews are bloodsuckers" comment? The fact that secularists dislike Israel shows that hostility towards Israel is not due to Islamic theology. It is much more likely that the hostility is due to Israel's occupation of the West Bank, and its annexation of Palestinian territory in Jerusalem and elsewhere.
    Last edited by Alpha-Red, Jul 22, 2013
  6. Violent Violet Menace Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 11, 2004
    star 4
  7. black_saber Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 4, 2002
    star 4
    Yes I remember that Morsi called the jews Bloodsuckers but Elbaradei supported the Irainian nuclear progam and Most israelis hate him. Lots of the secularists are a bunch of ultra nationalists are similar too Saddam hussien, Arafat, Abu nidal, and etc. They are coming in power for now until the next elections come.

    We should of either never made muburuck to step down or ignore the some the protesters who want freedom and demorcacy. Yet the funny thing is Al nour salafists party got second place in the egyptian government election and they supported morsi ouster. I have feeling that there going to be a stronger more stricker verison of sharia law because alot of egyptians want an islamists goverment. This is nowhere near the end of islamic extremism.

    Moris was taking too much power and some the muslim brotherhood memeber even supported his ouster. But most stood by his side. Muslim Brotherhood is not one group there are many different forms, neos and wanabes that called themsevles muslim brotherhoods all over the muslim world. Freedom and justice party is not the only group that is part of it. We could see another from of the Muslim brotherhood take over.

    But mostly likley we are probably going to have another salafists party take over and have egypt be another Taliban like state. Qatar is becoming a haven for all types of islamist extremism and hamas and the taliban have offices there.
  8. black_saber Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 4, 2002
    star 4
    Also superwatto most egyptians say 9/11 was done by America. its not really false on what I saying and posted earlier.And yet about the upcoming elections we could see another form is islamism coming back. Most egyptians hate israel and america. I am not trying to be racial or prejudice toward them. When ever in any muslim country when it comes to elections they always vote for an islamists party.

    Yet even when they do not win the majority don't vote for them, The islamists steal the elections.

    Forgive my grammer and spelling you are right about that. Next time I will post links in proof of what I read and to show that I am not spamming.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyptian_parliamentary_election,_2014 heres What I know so far on islamism in the next elections. Wiki is right about alot of islamist extremism, But they also cover for alot of groups that are white supremacists and racial groups like skulls and bones, and john brithers
    Last edited by black_saber, Jul 23, 2013
  9. black_saber Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 4, 2002
    star 4
    I meant to say that Wikipedia covers the groups of skulls and bones and the birthers by saying they are not racist when the truth is they are white supremacists and both had a relationship with the nazis and neo-nazis too.. I just forgot to edit.

    EDIT: Lets get back to the Arab Revolution and hope thing get better in the middle east.
    Last edited by black_saber, Jul 23, 2013
  10. DarthBoba Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2000
    star 9

    Interesting article @Violent Violet Menace. The possibility of a "reset" between Saudi Arabia and Iran is very big news regionally; I'd guess their bad blood dates from the Iran-Iraq War and the Saudi backing of Hussein during that conflict? Iran was very much the victim there, and I don't doubt a lot of Iran's hostility to the Saudis is from that.
  11. Ghost Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 13, 2003
    star 6
    It seems to me that most of it is the Saudi's hating Iran.

    Iran actually tried to make peace, and increase ties with Saudi Arabia and other Gulf states, for years after the Iraq War but were rejected. Now they want to try again. But it's the Saudi's who are more antagonistic.
    Last edited by Summer Dreamer, Jul 23, 2013
  12. DarthBoba Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2000
    star 9
    Interesting, again...linkies? Iran and Saudis are two countries I haven't uh, visited :p
  13. Ghost Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 13, 2003
    star 6
    Ever since the Revolution, the Saudi's have seen the Iranians as a geopolitical threat. That they could challenge Saudi control over Persian Gulf resources, the Iranian revolutionaries sharp criticism of Saudi-style government and offering an alternative, fear that Iranians have been undermining their Sunni allies in countries like Bahrain (which has a Sunni monarchy but Shia majority), as well as historical rivalry between Arabs and Persians (and between the Sunni and Shia branches of course). The Saudi's also see the Iranian nuclear program as a threat that could turn Iran into the main power of the Middle East, and have seen Iran on the advance ever since Iraq became a democracy.

    I can't find the exact link I remember reading around 2007, but I remember Iran trying a goodwill PR campaign to improve relations with their Arab neighbors, and being rejected harshly. But here's a few articles on Iran trying to reach out to Saudi Arabia in 2010 (which failed, and we all remember the allegations that Iran tired to assassinate the Saudi ambassador in DC), of Wikileaks saying Saudi Arabia wanted us to bomb Iran, and of Saudi Arabia funding Israel's Mossad to go after Iran's nuclear program:
    http://www.aawsat.net/2010/04/article55251108
    http://articles.chicagotribune.com/...01129_1_iran-s-arab-nuclear-program-diplomats
    http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/161407#.Ue8E4XfD_IU
    Violent Violet Menace likes this.
  14. DarthBoba Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2000
    star 9
  15. Violent Violet Menace Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 11, 2004
    star 4
    I just finished listening to an NPR panel discussion about the recent(-ish) developments in the Middle East that I found interesting. It's mostly about Syria, but it also addresses the election in Iran and the protests in Turkey. I think it predates the Egypt situation.

    It's an hour long, though.
  16. DarthBoba Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2000
    star 9
    Morsi detained

    It's not a very good article, but apparently Morsi is going to be questioned about whether or not he is/was involved with Hamas, specifically when he broke out of prison in early 2011.
  17. Jabba-wocky Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 4, 2003
    star 8
    Okay, really. I've been puzzling over this for nearly a month now, and I honestly have no clue what you are talking about. Care to defend this?

    1. Vetoing laws was never really a complaint. They hadn't really passed any, as they were mostly trying to write a constitution.

    2. Actually fought to undo the suspension of the legislature by the courts

    3. Again, nothing about refusing to pass laws

    4. Never dictated when the legislative branch should and shouldn't be in session. At all. I don't even think this is one of the powers an Egyptian President has, let alone one he tried to exercise. Nor were any of the sessions irregular or held in the middle of the night.

    5. To review, once, comprehensively. The courts attempted to dissolve the legislature, to which he responded by saying the original elections were valid, that the legislature should stay in session, and that until such time as a constitution was written to resolve these sort of inter-branch conflicts, his word would supercede the judiciary's. So that, you know, they would stop trying to dissolve the upper and lower house. His original decree was revised within a week to specify that it was restricted to "sovereign" issues and specifically the matter of the constitution drafting body, per agreement with the judiciary, as reported by BBC at the time.

    6. Stalling elections wasn't a complaint, unless possibly you count refusal to resign from office, in which case this whole exercise becomes kind of silly.

    7. No. Nothing even to do with migration in this scenario

    8. This was stupid and overblown when the Americans said it. But no, the Morsi government has never been accused of attacking its own citizens

    9-10. The format of trials never changed

    11. Maybe this? Arguably? But realistically, given the voting totals (some 65% went collectively to the two largest Islamic party), the new Parliament was always going to have a more Islamist orientation. I'm not sure one can make a strong argument that Morsi in particular was the problem here.

    12. Just to emphasize one last time, this is precisely the opposite of what happened in Egypt, as Morsi was in favor of retaining the legislative bodies, not dissolving them

    Really though, what are you talking about? There are absolutely no points of direct similarity between the two sets of grievances. One has to strain to make even a rhetorical link between a minority of them. There was plenty of stuff to dislike about the Morsi administration, in both its quality of governance and apparent motives. But this seems like some of the laziest "HAY GUIZ ITS JUST LIKE MURICA" punditry I've ever seen. Am I missing something here? Anyone?
  18. Jabba-wocky Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 4, 2003
    star 8
    Disregard. I thought this was a JCC thread.
    Last edited by Jabba-wocky, Aug 14, 2013
  19. Katana_Geldar Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 3, 2003
    star 8
    Saw the news this morning, my god....
  20. Skywalker8921 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 9, 2011
    star 4
    Yikes. I didn't find out until the evening news, but I agree with you there. The situation just keeps spiraling down and down into the hole all over the Middle East.
  21. DarthBoba Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2000
    star 9
    From NPR:

    Many Egyptians support military crackdown

    Somewhat lurid article, but I think it's interesting, in a horrible kind of way, to see a secular government take up tactics you'd ordinarily see coming from the other side. I'm not really sure you can describe the Brotherhood as terrorists anymore, although you certainly could have decades back.

    Edit: Second article in my RSS this morning:

    Egypt considering a ban on the Muslim Brotherhood

    I suppose this has been a long time in coming, since the 1950s TBH, when the Brotherhood attempted to assassinate Gamel Nasser, the founder of the modern Egyptian state, who was very much a Socialist/secular leader. The Mubarak era sort of put a freeze on the conflict between the two, but it's open season now, and the military has always been a distinctly secular, as well as overtly political, aspect of Egyptian society.

    I think this is going to end with the Brotherhood mostly dead or in prison, as well as banned from political participation. Where that will go depends on how the government decides to rule...Mubarak's dictatorship isn't a viable option, IMO, but I think it's clear that the military's political power base isn't going to be diminished at all by this, which puts a limit on just how democratic things can get.

    Edit Three: A Guardian profile of General Abdel Fatah al-Sisi, the leader of Morsi's overthrow

    General Sisi: Walking in the shadow of a legend

    Last edited by DarthBoba, Aug 17, 2013
  22. DarthBoba Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2000
    star 9
    Syrian Army may have used chemical weapons in Damascus suburbs

    I say "may" because this doesn't smell right to me.

    1) Damascus is the capital. You wouldn't utilize chemical weapons literally miles from your center of power without potentially destabilizing that.

    2) UN inspectors looking specifically for use of chemical weapons are already there. A chemical attack now (especially one that's potentially killed 200-1500 people) could not be hidden, and would be a virtual admission of guilt in the previous chemical accusations.

    The first link is full of NPR conspiracy theorists, but I've got my doubts about this. It's just a little too outrageous to believe-like if Saddam had tested a nuclear weapon on March 20, 2003.
    Violent Violet Menace likes this.
  23. Ghost Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 13, 2003
    star 6
    It is odd. But even if this claim isn't true, it's still long-overdue for us to step up our involvement and bring this thing to a close... instead of this long, slow bleeding (which is destabilizing the region as well).
  24. Katana_Geldar Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 3, 2003
    star 8
    I think it is true, just too terrible to be believed.

    WARNING! DISTURBING AND GRAPHIC IMAGES!

    It was the kids that got me, it looks like they're sleeping.
  25. Skywalker8921 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 9, 2011
    star 4
    That would really be the wrong thing to do. I agree we need to maintain some kind of presence in the Middle East, but when events have showed they don't much care for Western interference(Benghazi, the burning of Western Christian Churches in Egypt, ect.) we need to stay out of it. Let them fight it out among themselves. No matter what we try, the region is always going to be a hotbed, and stepping up our presence there, acting like world police, in other words, would just cause resentment to fester.