Rewriting the TOS

The Terms of Service have been up there as a while, serving as a rather bare bones basis for conduct and mod/user interactions.

I was wondering if any other regular members(and any mods willing to post) have any specific problem with the TOS or suggestions on how they'd like to see it changed.

For my own part.

User acknowledges and agrees that the use of the Jedi Council Forums is a privilege, not a right, and that the administration of the Jedi Council has the right, at its sole discretion, to revoke this privilege at any time without notice or reason.

I feel this clause is far to broad and can be used to justify any abuse of mod powers, no matter how agregious. Any suggestion that mods are allowed to ban on whim I think is a violation of tradition and trust.
Better to remove the concept members can be banned without reason, or have the tacit understanding that there will always be reason.

The Jedi Council Administration has the right but not the obligation to monitor and/or moderate the Forums...

I feel it is completely ludicrous to say the Administration doesn't have the obligation to moderate and monitor the forums. The vast majority of mods serve no other purpose but to moderate, to say this isn't required of them is to suggest they have no purpose and thus are unnecesary.

Further thoughts on these and other issues are welcome.

 

I posted this a while back.

User acknowledges and agrees that use of the Jedi Council Forums is a privilege, not a right, and that the administration of the Jedi Council has the right, at its sole discretion, to revoke this privilege at any time without notice or reason. User agrees that this Agreement in its entirety applies to both public and private messages.

I'd say that gives the Mod Squad free run over the regular users. I think, "without notice or reason" should be taken out. I think people deserve to know why they're banned in ALL cases.

The goal of the Forums is to foster communication and the interchange of ideas within the online Star Wars community. User agrees and acknowledges that any posts, nicknames or other material deemed offensive, harassing, baiting or otherwise inappropriate may be removed at the sole discretion of the administration.

Once again, there needs to be a clear cut definition of what's offensive. It's nice to see that actual communication is being fostered at this time. That's definitely a step in the right direction.

The Jedi Council Administration has the right but not the obligation to monitor and/or moderate the Forums, and offers no assurances in this regard.

Why don't Mods have an obligation to moderate forums? If you have the job and the colors, then you have the obligation. I think this whole section could be removed. If it isn't removed, then it should be re-worded. This sounds like a copout to me. "I'm here but I don't have to do anything", is the way this sounds. That's unacceptable.

The Jedi Council Administration is not responsible for messages posted on the Forums or the content therein. We do not vouch for or warrant the accuracy, completeness or usefulness of any message. Each message expresses the views of its originating User, not necessarily those of the Jedi Council Administration or TheForce.Net. Unless expressly stated otherwise by a senior Jedi Council or TheForce.Net representative such as the the owners of the site, this includes messages posted by Jedi Council moderators, managers, VIPs et al.

If people with colors can speak for TF.N, then they should be held to a higher standard. If I were Josh and Scott, I wouldn't want people with colors spouting off at the mouth and ticking off users. I see the need for higher standards.

Any User who feels that a posted message is objectionable is encouraged to contact us. We have the ability to remove messages and we will make every effort to do so within a reasonable time if we determine that removal is necessary. This is a manual process, however, so please realize that we may not be able to act immediately. Removal of messages is at the sole discretion of the Administration.

I don't have a problem with this section. It seems pretty cut and dry.

In order to contact a moderator who can help you with your questions, simply check the "users online" page, and look for any user with a multi-colored name (there are, however, some 'VIP's' with colored names. Please click on the actual user's name to view their profile. If the profile says moderator, manager, or administrator next to their name, they can help you with your questions).

I think a disclaimer should be place in here stating that a user's name will continue to show up for at least 30 minutes after they logoff. It would nice if the board could be re-coded so this problem is corrected. It's very annoying to PM someone only to find out they haven't been online for the past few minutes.

The administration reserves the right to reveal the identity of and/or whatever information we know about any User in the event of a complaint or legal action arising from any message posted by said User.

My question about this was answered in the other thread I posted this in.

Advertisements, chain letters, pyramid schemes and other commercial solicitations are inappropriate on the Forums.

This is pretty cut and dry

 

User acknowledges and agrees that use of the Jedi Council Forums is a privilege, not a right, and that the administration of the Jedi Council has the right, at its sole discretion, to revoke this privilege at any time without notice or reason. User agrees that this Agreement in its entirety applies to both public and private messages.

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The Jedi Council Administration has the right but not the obligation to monitor and/or moderate the Forums, and offers no assurances in this regard.

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The Jedi Council Administration is not responsible for messages posted on the Forums or the content therein. We do not vouch for or warrant the accuracy, completeness or usefulness of any message. Each message expresses the views of its originating User, not necessarily those of the Jedi Council Administration or TheForce.Net. Unless expressly stated otherwise by a senior Jedi Council or TheForce.Net representative such as the the owners of the site, this includes messages posted by Jedi Council moderators, managers, VIPs et al.

those are all standards of TOS's, and i don't see them changing anytime soon. even though they CAN invoke them (for example the first one), doesn't mean they will, and it covers their butts in case of legal trouble.

while i don't necessarily agree with them, if you look at the TOS of almsot any site, you'll see similar statements to those three above... it's just the standard nowadays, when people are willing to sue at the drop of a hat.

 

I feel this clause is far to broad and can be used to justify any abuse of mod powers, no matter how agregious. Any suggestion that mods are allowed to ban on whim I think is a violation of tradition and trust.
Better to remove the concept members can be banned without reason, or have the tacit understanding that there will always be reason.

I think this is where the legal part comes in. The ability has to be there, for some unforseen situation that it's needed. I believe in just about any given situation, there will be a reason, and that if powers are abused in those situation, there will be questions asked and action taken if necessary.

As mentioned above, I think it's a legal thing more than anything else.

Why don't Mods have an obligation to moderate forums? If you have the job and the colors, then you have the obligation. I think this whole section could be removed. If it isn't removed, then it should be re-worded. This sounds like a copout to me. "I'm here but I don't have to do anything", is the way this sounds. That's unacceptable.

Perhaps that's saying that if something comes up that's not okay and a moderator doesn't see it, the JC isn't liable for it. Basically, we can't be here 24/7 and we're going to miss things that cancome up.

That's just my first guess, though.

Edit: Grammar.

 

User acknowledges and agrees that the use of the Jedi Council Forums is a privilege, not a right, and that the administration of the Jedi Council has the right, at its sole discretion, to revoke this privilege at any time without notice or reason.

Well, I may be a bit jaded by my time in the Senate, but I happen to love this clause. I did not know until a short time ago that it was a board wide policy; I thought it was a Senate thing only, one that I did have to use on more than just a few occassions. Often, members just get out of control and while no specific thing leads to a ban, there can be a host of small concerns that one day, just lead to a banning seemingly at random. It's not quite the same as this clause, but it's the closest I've seen.

The Jedi Council Administration has the right but not the obligation to monitor and/or moderate the Forums...

I must admit, this clause also has me scratching my head. We have the right (the ability) to monintor and/or moderate, but we do not have the obligation (are under no responsability). I disagree with the wording of this statement. I agree with KnightWriter that it's a bit of legal talk to protect us against missing objectionable material. But it certainly is not worded that way at all. Perhaps: "we have the duty, if promoted, to moderate and monitor the board, though cannot take responsabilty for objectionable material missed." Basically, we cannot be everywhere at once, though we are duty-bound to do our damnedest to patrol these forums.

"Once again, there needs to be a clear cut definition of what's offensive."

Think in terms of PG movies. What is the difference between them and PG-13 movies? What material is acceptible in one, yet offensive in the other? I don't agree with this "Disneyfication" of the JC, but until an idea to change it comes forward that isn't just "I want to post dirty words and pictures", we're stuck enforcing a PG forum. But back to what's offensive. Gratuitous references to genitalia would be deemed offensive, as would profanity, talk that's sexually explicit, euphamisms for any of the aforementioned, racially/ethnically/religious charged words or phrases (not something like "JC Christian" or "Cuban_Pride", but those phrases that use slurs or language to purposely incite hostile reactions). There are other offensive things, but there's a good start at what to avoid.

"If people with colors can speak for TF.N, then they should be held to a higher standard."

I agree that we should be set to a higher standard. That's one reason why you'll never see Lord Mally Maul back as a moderator, or Captain Antilles or PreacherBoy. We are entitled to our socio-political opinions and sometimes they may run counter to what TFN supports or is socially acceptable. The clause in question (The Jedi Council Administration is not responsible for messages posted on the Forums or the content therein.) says on one hand, the views of these 80,000+ people are not the views of the site owners. It also says that the derogatory comments and objectionable posts are not indicitive of the site owners' opinions nor are the site owners responsible for them. The moderators do voluntary duty and claim responsability to clean up the latter comments, but neither they nor the TFn staff can control entirely what people post. It's part of the legal clauses.

 

Examples of boards similar to the TF.N Jedi Council...

1. One Extreme - The Official Sites

Star Wars.com
"Nonetheless, Lucasfilm reserves the right to prevent you from submitting Materials to Forums and to edit, restrict or remove such Messages for any reason at any time."

"Lucasfilm assumes no responsibility for actively monitoring Forums for inappropriate Messages. If at any time Lucasfilm chooses, in its sole discretion, to monitor the Forums, Lucasfilm nonetheless assumes no responsibility for the content of the Messages, no obligation to modify or remove any inappropriate Messages, and no responsibility for the conduct of the user submitting any Message."

---

[link=http://darkhorse.com/community/boards/terms.tpl][u]Dark Horse Comics[/u][/link]
"Dark Horse Comics reserves the right to delete any message for any or no reason whatsoever."

"Considering the real-time nature of this message board, it is impossible for us to review messages or confirm the validity of information posted. Please remember that we at do not actively monitor the contents of and are not responsible for any messages posted. We do not vouch for or warrant the accuracy, completeness or usefulness of any message, and are not responsible for the contents of any message. The messages express the views of the author of the message, not necessarily the views of Dark Horse Comics or any entity associated with Dark Horse Comics."[/ul]And an example on the opposite far extreme... [link=http://www.ezboard.com/corporate/legal_termsofuse.html]Episode-X's forum TOS[/link]:[ul]"11. MODIFICATION AND TERMINATION OF SERVICE
"...reserves the right at any time and from time to time to modify or discontinue, temporarily or permanently, the Service (or any part of it) with or without notice..."

"...shall have the right (but not the obligation) to access any board, and remove or restrict access to any Content..."[/ul]Very obviously, something like TF.N is not an official LFL Star Wars site. However, it falls somewhere in between the standards allowable by Episdode-X's Anarchy boards and the standards LFL deems acceptable to them.

The TF.N TOS is similar to 99.9999999% TOS in use for similar things.

The reason being is that it is the best way to govern board useage.

The problem is not mod abuse of TOS, the problem is people not accepting they can be terminated for any reason whatsoever. TOS issues are wholly independent of drama-issues. They are there for the site owner and/or administration to make clear that problems - whatever they may be - do not need to be tolerated from anyone, anywhere at any time. It's a completely different issue from people getting all bent out of shape because some mod they don't like banned them, or some mod banned someone they don't like.

However, that's not a big deal - I don't know if there's ever been a single case of a mod going "Hey, what the hell, I think I'll ban UserX for absolutely no reason today."

EDIT: ...well, besides Bane. :p :D

 

The starwars.com TOS is protecting Lucasfilm, not the people who moderate the forums. If you want to talk about TFN or snowboard not having the responsibility towards the boards thats one thing, to say the moderaters don't on the other hand is absolutely idiotic.

The dark horse boards, as fas as I can tell, are not actively moderated. Problems are onyl dealt with when members bring them to the administrations attention. Considering the JC is actively moderated using thier TOS as a template doesn't make sense.

Fianlly your Episode-X's forum, TOS is the TOS for the entirety of snowboards(I feel you realized this since you eliminated any mention of snowboard, probably to strengthen your case). This would be similar to having a TOS from snowball, not having one created by the mods.

All three of your examples are flawed.

And considering your post am I to believe you never have and never will suggest to other mods they should use the ban without reason clause to justify the banning of someone?

 

The starwars.com TOS is protecting Lucasfilm, not the people who moderate the forums. If you want to talk about TFN or snowboard not having the responsibility towards the boards thats one thing, to say the moderaters don't on the other hand is absolutely idiotic.

But that's what it is there about, farraday. TFN is the administrative body under whose auspices these boards operate. The language protects them from someone saying, "My kid saw a traumatizing scene in fanfic! I'm suing for mental cruelty!" The mod in question would probably get demoted for not catching such a thing, but we're just volunteers to help enforce the TOS; the site is is the governing entity, and it is therefore the site which is being protected by that language.

 

No it doens't.

In fact it makes a very clear differentation between the two in the only time it ever mention TheForce.net.

Each message expresses the views of its originating user, not necessarily those of the Jedi Council Administration or TheForce.net.

Every other reference is to the Jedi Council Administration.
The TOS protects the admins, not neccesarily TF.N. If you want to use those other boards as an example, every time it says JC administration it should be striken and replaced with TheForce.net.

Edit// Tellingly none of those three TOS insludes the word moderator and the only one to include administrator, the ezboard one, specifies that members and administrators are treated same under the TOS of ezboard.

 

Every other reference is to the Jedi Council Administration.

JC administration is a group of volunteers that works for TFN. TFN is still the governing entity and the one that would be answerable if that language weren't present. It's CYA language only.

 

No it really isn't.

I again urge you to read the TOS Ghengis so kindly linked to and realize the difference. You position suggests the OS mods are part of LFL, in which case I suppsoe the mdos should answer for why several of them are banned instead of VIPs.

The mods aren't owners, a TOS should protect the owners(as in all three examples shown) instead of the volunteers, after all the administration is governable by the same TOS as regular users.

 

farraday...
No reason to quibble over Episode-X. Didn't like the one I gave, how about this one

"You agree that the webmaster, administrator and moderators of this forum have the right to remove, edit, move or close any topic at any time should they see fit."

"While the administrators and moderators of this forum will attempt to remove or edit any generally objectionable material as quickly as possible, it is impossible to review every message. Therefore you acknowledge that all posts made to these forums express the views and opinions of the author and not the administrators, moderators or webmaster (except for posts by these people) and hence will not be held liable."

Funny, it happens to fundamentally be the same as nearly every single TOS of nearly every single fan message board in existence.

(Now, I suppose that I'm going to get nailed in Comms as to why a TF.N mod is linking to Episode-X. )

 

That one still doesn't give mods the right to ban for no reason.

And that still specifically says the mods will attempt to moderate the boards, not that they have no responsibility to.

Try again.

 

I again urge you to read the TOS Ghengis so kindly linked to and realize the difference. You position suggests the OS mods are part of LFL, in which case I suppsoe the mdos should answer for why several of them are banned instead of VIPs.

When they are modding, yes, they are volunteering for LFL, and LFL would be theoretically responsible for the boards they are modding without the language. I don't know their process of choosing mods at TOS.

Now that I've parsed your question, let me rephrase it as I think you meant it: If they are volunteers at the behest of LFL, why are they banned here rather than being feted and dined?

I don't really see the connection. Is there some reason that they should be VIPs, just because they volunteer for LFL? They were banned here for Terms violations as far as I know, though I don't know the whole story about any of them. Subsequently becoming mods at TOS doesn't change that.

 

You are all caught in a continuous drama loop to which there is no answer or no end.

 

<sigh>

Mods are not owners and the point of a TOS should be to protect the site owners, like all three of the official ones Genghis initally linked to do.

As for you Sape, stop spamming Comm.

 

So your point is that our TOS protects mods as well as site owners, giving both little cushions, when mods should not be protected nor should responsability be shirked by them in such an official way.

Is that part of it?

 

Yes.

Actually the TOS should apply to mods as well as regular members, which in it's current state it doesn't.

 

Trust me, my comment was real. Whatever argument an admin throws out, you see the other side and prove it wrong. Then an admin comes back and says why you're wrong. This can and will go on without end until some sort of compromise is met. The thread is spinning wheels.

I don't see much wrong with the TOS. They're a general set of rules that help us and the site. Seeing as how similar they are in nature to other respected sites and it's not in dispute there, I wonder what's really so bad about ours.

 

It already does apply to moderators. We never stop being regular members, and we must continue to uphold and abide by the TOS.

 

Mods are not owners and the point of a TOS should be to protect the site owners, like all three of the official ones Genghis initally linked to do.

They are designed to protect the site owners. You have yet to demonstrate in any way that they do anything else. That the mods aren't the site owners is obvious, but irrelevant. We're here to moderate the forums which are owned by the site-owners (not to be redundant), and we volunteer to work for the site. An orderly doesn't own a hospital, but if a family member slips on the an improperly mopped floor, it's still the hospital that gets sued, and therefore the hospital that needs to have the language there.

 

Well, it does and it doesn't apply to moderators. We have no set public charter or code of conduct. Perhaps it's time to put Scott's rubric out there for all to see.

 

So tell me KW, do you feel that if the Mod Squad was opened and put under unbiased scrutiny of the same level as as JCC, no mod would recieve a ban, spank, or warning?

Furthermore, it's amazing that you can say that saying actions can be taken by the mdos for no reason is saying mods and members are equal under the TOS.

Edit// Galadrial you're still missing the point, there is no way a mod can be liable for what is posted, only the owner of the site could even concievably be.
To take your hospital analogy, the TOS is saying that the janitor is nto responsible for you slipping and falling instead of that the hospital is in no way responsible. It makes a very clear diferentation between the administration and TFN and gives no rights to the owners of the site.

 

So tell me KW, do you feel that if the Mod Squad was opened and put under unbiased scrutiny of the same level as as JCC, no mod would recieve a ban, spank, or warning?


I think it would depend on the interpretation, as it does with all forums.

Furthermore, it's amazing that you can say that saying actions can be taken by the mdos for no reason is saying mods and members are equal under the TOS.

There are two different hats that any moderator or up wears. There's the regular member hat, and there's the moderator one. Misconduct as a moderator can have nothing to do with status as a member. However, misconduct while being a regular member can have a major influence on both.

 

KW, you should know by now that mods give up their regular user hats when they become mods.

Any action or post by a mod is reflective of them and possibly the entire administration.

As for you Sape, I dare say you don't see anything wrong with the TOS since it doesn't require anything of you.

The Jedi Council Administration does not equal the site owners. The entire TOS is formed around protecting the Administration, not the site owners.