ST Rey & Kylo Ren in Episode IX

And there in lies part of the issue with TLJ, and partly with the Reylo narrative. Again, I'm coming at this from a more business look at things, then a fan way for this point. As you pointed out RJ is focusing on a restrictive audience without, I think, realizing it. He's a man that has, to be honest, limited amounts of films under his belt. This is not to say he's a bad director, but Looper is the most prominent work outside of Breaking Bad, that people know him for. Given that that was pretty much trying to be an art film in an action film wrapped up with trying to add philosophy (You don't go bringing Akira into a story without at least getting past the tech demo that was the movie) that's not completed, I don't honestly think he was the best person to do the middle story here. Again, this is not to say that he's a bad director, but I honestly don't think that LFL held him to a tight enough leash for the GA.

TFA, for all the faults it has, cast a wide enough net that it could pull in a mix of things from all over the place. You could pull in the philosophical angle from Maz, you have the dramatic stuff with Finn bucking the system, and you have the action moments that the GA may like. Star Wars, for all intents and purposes, can be viewed by adults, but at the end of the day, like the Marvel Movies that came after it, is supposed to be able to be easily consumed and understood by kids. This doesn't mean talking down to them, but the story has to be able to work on two levels, an adult one, and a kid one. TLJ got the adult level stuff just fine, (although I'm not a huge fan of it for various reasons) but I do think that it missed out on the kid level stuff. One scene that keeps bugging my mind is when Rey and Ben are going up the elevator, and you have the shot of Finn and Rose. Given that Finn and Rey are friends, they have a bond too, you would think that Rey would feel that he was there. But it seemed like the whole movie totally forgot about everything that had been built. And that, for a GA member, can really cut into your plot and story telling elements.

For China, the confusion comes from the fact that the heroes aren't banding together. Take the tale of the Journey to the west, it is the most promenent Asian story to date and had be told over and over again. One of the facets that keeps coming into play from that and used a lot in their movies is the idea that you have a four man band that represents the group that went from China to India. The Monk, the Water Spirit, the Noble Pig, and the Monkey King. For TFA this was easily broken down as Rey as the Monk, Finn as the Monkey King Wu Kong, Poe as either the Noble god pig or the water Sprite. The problem is that TLJ didn't make Rose into this band and split them up, making the story harder to follow in a way. (Again western vs. eastern conventions in story telling and religious texts.) Yin and Yang work well, but he didn't explore it right. He didn't get into it, and seemed more about the personal aspects of it, rather then the actual point of the Yin and the Yang as neither Rey nor Ben ever once seemed to talk about or explore that aspect. Visually he put it on the floor then seemed to kind of forget about it in some ways. I have to wonder if anyone had a full grasp about why that's important in China and Japan.

Regarding Rey and Ben and the female audience. Keep in mind that while a female demographic is great, and they are pushing for it more in the toy aspect, a good chunk of those sales are for toys that a lot of people still label as boys. So while the romance plays out you have kids that have no interest in that aspect wanting to know why there is no real fight. Where's the star fighters. Why are we in a casino? And what makes it harder is that it's not a direct romance, so you can't market it as such like say Shades of Gray or whatever romance is coming out. So you have people that are like "Well we can't exactly sell romantic stuff to women" because again the marketers don't see it as a romance.

I don't think they are going to. I think while some may not like the back to basic black and white, it can still be subtle, but like I said you have to work on two levels.

I do think that you could use the idea of Rey and Ben acting like an Arthur/Mordred yin yang idea for the story to make it simpler over all for the kids and still evoke some heavy King Arthur legendary stuff there for the adults.

 

No it doesnt say that at all.
I dont think Snoke was even mentioned in that novel.

Its just fan interpretation.

Besides no force user is THAT much powerful who can influence a child in his mother's womb and then Dies so easily.

Besides i think its Kylo's own darkness.
He was born with equal parts of light and dark.

And Leia's fear of having her first child that gave her nightmares.

Regarding WHEN Kylo created Snoke i have metioned it in a reply above, yoy could check that if you want.

I just think its a good theory.

Thats why i posted it.

 

I dont know man but it DOES answer kinda like the mystery about ST and skywalkers.

I just watched TFA and TLJ with this theory in mind and NOTHING contradicts it.

WOW.

This is my favourite Snoke Theory from now on until something contradicts it.

Fight club is one of my favourite movies.
So i totally like this theory.

 

Snoke has a Vader like scar only bigger on his head at the same place.

So.

 

Actually, it really does say that in Aftermath: Empire's End. Repeatedly. Ben seems to have been fighting off Snoke since he was a fetus and Leia sensed the intrusion.

 

Ben seems to be fighting "darkness", it could be his own.

Nowhere Snoke is mentioned. At all.

Its just interpretation.

Like Luke said above "brighter the light, darker the shadow."

Kylo is made of both light and dark.
So.

 

No, it specifically says that "it's not the baby". There's something "unseen" interfering. Something with "hands of shadow" is reaching for both her and Ben and Leia keeps sensing it. Leia senses that they're both being "watched" by the unseen fear that then is felt uncoiling, which means it's not Ben she's sensing. Ben can't get comfortable and is troubled in the womb.

Reread those passages, because it's obvious that it's not just talking about Ben. Snoke was there all along interfering.

 

That was what I was looking for yesterday. Thanks!

Leia is no stranger to the Dark Side. Luke said we all have it, but the threat she feels is beyond her understanding. It is open to interpretations, but honestly it sounds pretty straightforward to me.

 

It sickens me that this dark creeper targeted a baby even before it was born.

 

@Star war you can break it down in a different way:

Snoke wants to kill the last Jedi, which is Luke
Kylo wants to kill Luke because Luke tried to kill him.

Because, again, Snoke wants to kill the last Jedi, and Leia was never a Jedi.
Besides, Snoke wants to eradicate hope from the galaxy, we have seen that Leia has little influence in that, her personal code would not move allies to help the Rebellion.
Luke is the hope, he always was (since Ep. IV)

He did it because Ben's parents basically were either not aware or washed their hands on it. Leia tried on her own, without even involving Han, she never told him that Snoke was seducing their son. Just trying to hide the truth to an already absent father. Then washing her hands on the issue sending the child (boy?) to Luke.
Luke feared the Dark Side too much. He resisted it instead of accepting it as part of himself. At least for the greater part of his life. Only in the end he seems to grasp that both must coexist, nevertheless he is still scared to death by it and cannot cope with it. He admits that himself.

For the same reason why nobody ever tries to kill to the Emperor in the OT. Snoke, just like the Emperor, is very elusive. I don't think you can just send a commando to try to draw out Snoke. Besides, we do not really know if they did try or not.
Rey did, and only after she entered Ben's mind, saw his conflict.
Han, Leia and Luke gave up on him long ago because none of them could really understand/see his conflict, sense his will to go a different path.

So was the Emperor, until George Lucas wrote the Prequels. R. Johnson wasn't interested in exploring Snoke, because his focus was "knocking the shaky foundation out from Kylo's feet and then building him back up into a complicated but credible villain by the end of it."
(Interview with Business Insider)

Rey, the Pretorian Guards, the whole bridge of the Finalizer Cruiser when his holo chastised Hux after losing the Resistance fleet.
If Kylo is projecting Snoke, in a way that non-force sensitive can see and deal with him, he'd be dead by now ("you're not doing this, the effort would kill you")

Because he is conflicted by his dual nature yes, he is split, as I pointed out in previous posts, but he's split between Ben Solo and Kylo Ren. Snoke urges him to kill Ben Solo so that he can be fully Kylo Ren, his dog of war, killing machine.

 

Okay, am I the only one that is getting tired of the writers using Jacen Solo, Kyp Durron, and now Anakin Solo to create Ben Solo here. This is a blatent pull from the EU where Leia was having Anakin, the Emperor wanted to take over his body, he was attacking him inside her as well while he was growing, prepping the boy's body to take over the form. and then later, when Anakin was born, he pretty much tried to physically take the baby from Leia but was beaten back.

I'm sorry, but if they're going to create Ben Solo as his own character. For the love of all that is the force, stop ripping off your old characters that you threw away so you could create this new story. If you were just going to bring them back in as a mishmash to build Ben's back story, then that is just bad writing all the way around. The reason the Solo kids and Kyp stayed around and still are seen as cool characters, is because they were built from scratch and Ben should be too. We do not need a story where you have a love child of those three above. Please just for goodness sakes make him his own character and stop mucking about in the old EU. It's not fair to the old fans and it's certainly not fair to new fans when the character will be constantly compared to his counter parts, who, have more nuance to them and more history then he does. We don't even know why he's gone dark yet, only that Snoke's been influencing him, and that he had a fight with Luke and ran off with his buddies. That doesn't make a compelling character in regard to what makes him tick, that's only a very basic skeleton. By this point in the OT we at least knew things that made Vader Vader in regard to how he treats others, Boba Fett and the dinning room scene, to how he sees those in the Empire rank and their view on the Force, to his own philosphy. Ben, while young, should still have something to grasp onto for viewers, not just a supposed romance that goes no where in this movie.

It sucks because he should be standing out, and really, he doesn't compared to say Maul, Ventress, even Star Killer and the Inquisitors made more of a hit in Rebels. When I can't think at least one line, that's not generic, that defines this character, I have to wonder if the writing room is paying attention to the General Audience who are usually the ones that go back with friends to show them this movie based on characters like Ben. It feels like they're not paying too much attention to one idea about him and ignoring all others that he needs to have.

 

The general audience doesn't give a crap about the EU. They never read it. It's gone. It's dead. It's off-topic.

You don't have to like it, but there's a new canon. A new canon where that background material is intentionally developed with notes from the story group and film writers about what they want. The characters you just named as being somehow deeper than Ben/Kylo are characters the general audience thinks have no depth beyond a cool costume/makeup (Darth Maul is infamous for this just like Boba Fett). Ben's humanity, conflict and vulnerability is exactly what makes him so popular. He's not just a faceless, robotic monster in a mask who acted as a subservient lackey like Vader did until the very end of RotJ. The fact that Ben has already killed his lifelong abuser should make that even more apparent that he's something else and has a different kind of story happening. He's getting sympathetic material because he isn't just there to be fought and defeated.

Ben Solo/Kylo Ren is by far one of the most successful and praised things about the ST, regardless of how much you hate that your EU has been obliterated. Frankly, I'm glad it was. We can get some real dramatic, gutsy material now that isn't stuck up its own backside. And yes, that drama includes romance. The character has rocketed in popularity because of his depth, performance quality and complexity. That's been the real general audience reaction to The Last Jedi. The Tumblr stats aren't lying. That he's also been a tragic victim since before he was born, a lost boy who feels as abandoned and lonely as the orphan scavenger, is seeking belonging just like her and is a to-be lover as much as he's a probably-redemptive villain and dark prince makes him all the more interesting.

Speaking of what kind of drama is being brought in for the ST and Reylo, here's a rather awesome video pointing out how much Reylo has been influenced by Jane Eyre and the Gothic romance genre in general:

 

I see what you mean.
But I'm afraid that this is the risk when you create fairytale stories that heavily rely on archetypes.
If you accept Ben Solo representing something (Usurper, Death, Oedipus, Byronic hero you name it) , then he'll be built on that archetype that he shares with other characters of the like.
I've seen Ben Solo compared to Jacen, Anakin Skywalker, Raven, Darth Maul but also Mordred, Mr. Darcy, Rochester, Lord Byron, even Wickham and can't remember what else.
They all have very similar character traits and share almost the same identical story arc. I'm afraid that there isn't much free space left when you build a character like that.

Furthermore, the writers with his redempion arc in mind (and possibly saving his life), need to make Ben Solo sympathetic after all the crimes he committed. So they have to rely on the fact that the choices he made were not 100% his fault. And what a better story than a creepy old sick man preying on his soul as he was as defenceless as a child could be? (another archetype BTW) Do you have a better one that work at the same level? Keep in mind that Ben's crimes are quite significant, so the "mitigating factors" must be equally significant.

 

Not generic one line that defines a character? What does it even mean? I can't think too one not generic line that defines Rey, Finn and Poe from the movies.

Kylo has a few dramatic lines from him\or about him that define him:

"I'm being torn apart."

"He has too much Vader in him."
"You have too much of your father's heart in you, young Solo."

Yeah, because "Rebels" is a TV-show. Let's compare Kylo to Maul from the movies. Who is standing out?

 

I don't think he blames others of his actions. He explicitly said that he did what he did in order to "become what he was meant to be". His argument is that Rey is constrained by her morality whereas he is not. Of course we might prefer Rey's view, if we are not serial killers, but from the way he is presented in TLJ, he looks rather active to me.

Also, the fact that Snoke contributed to his path to the dark side should not be seen as a reduction of his responsibilities.

 

Agreed. Also:

Kylo:"You have that look in your eyes. From the forest. You called me a monster."

Rey:" You ah a monstah."

Kylo:"Yes I am."

he takes full responsibility. He isn't proud, one has to watch the scene and the performance to see that he's quite grieved by that fact, but he takes full responsibility. He doesn't think he's anything else but a monster.

So neither he lets himself off the hook, nor the movie does it, nor his fans, nor Rey, etc. It's just that Rey starts seeing the man behind the monster during the course of the movie, and so does the audience (except those who decided that Kylo is the worst evil that ever eviled cause personal reasons - killed Han, is Rey's love interest instead of other character, is the Last Skywalker instead of some nice agreeable character). Hence her going from calling him Kylo Ren and Kylo to calling him Ben. Very important character development for her and very important relationship development in the movie and for the future.

 

Well, I guess it's all down to personal taste that some people only find admirable traits to be sympathetic and relatable. But there are negative and positive traits within all of us. Myths and fairatales like Star Wars just serve as a giant metaphor for the real world and the characters represent specific aspects of our psyche. These characters are not real people after all. Real world consequences don't apply in the galaxy far far away.

We shouldn't shun the negative aspects because then we lose the ability to empathize with people, which doesn’t mean excusing actions or anything, but there's always a reason for everything. There's a reason people make certain decisions and choose certain paths and it's important to know why, because that could be us too. Or maybe some people have already been down that dark and difficult path and saved themselves and want the same for Kylo. Kathleen Kennedy herself said that Kylo Ren was the perfect character that could serve as a metaphor for a troubled adolescent and a backstory is necessary to explain that past. So it does matter that he was targeted and used by Snoke for his bloodline and almost murdered in his sleep by his uncle. These were his triggers. So I don’t find it baffling why people relate to or sympathize with Kylo Ren, but that's just me.

 

All of this. Moreover, real heroes have the capacity to love those that nobody loves. That is why Luke is the greatest SW hero - he loved Vader when nobody could (including his sister who remained appalled by her heritage for a long time, only starting to come to terms with it in Bloodline, but far from unconditional love). It's easy to be compassionate to a cute droid or a charming goofball. But a monster (literal or figurative)? That takes a special kind of hero. No wonder it was pointedly made at the end of TLJ that Leia (mother) gave up and Luke (uncle) acknowledges that he couldn't save Ben either. So family lost unconditional love and only unconditional love transforms. But Luke and Leia are not our heroine so it makes sense that it isn't their role. It's Rey's unconditional love. Ben will regain her trust with his actions cause loss of her is what really got him (the last scene of him on his knee with his tears stricken face). Now that he calmed down from his fury, he sees that his victory is hollow cause he lost what he really loves. Onto hard work that clashes with his position as the Supreme Leader. Truly a compelling dramatic plot point.

@NileQT87 Thanks for posting Reylo/Jane Eyre video. For all concern (in some corners) about Reylo being a bad message for girls and Twilight/50 Shades of Grey, Reylo is actually inspiring reading of classics (P&P, Jane Eyre), mythological books, Joseph Campbell, Jung and Bly, etc. I don't see a surge in interest in Twilight/Shades but I see a lot of interest in classic literature. Tumblr (that teen girls favor) is all the rage with Austen/Bronte reading thanks to this couple.

 

I totally agree that Kylo does take responsibility for his actions.
He thinks what he is doing is right.

I dont think he EVER blamed anyone for his actions.
The only person he blamed was Luke and thats bcoz he thought Luke was trying to kill him. He wasnt wrong there either.
Thats all.

I dont know why people think he is whiney and a spoilt brat.

If people want to see whiney and a spoilt brat, look no further than Poe and Holdo scenes in TLJ.
Poe was real "gem" there.

Even Finn is whinning about how horrible FO order is for 2 straight movies.

Rey is whinning about her family and her force powers.

But people dont call them that at all bcoz they are "heroes". They can whine all they want. Bcoz They are right.

But Kylo cant bcoz he is the "villian". And he needs to be a badass like Vader. Which they have said numorous times he isnt.

Honestly right now Kylo is the only intetesting character.
He is unpredictable.

The rest are just bland.

Poe is a hero.
Finn is a hero.
Rey is THE hero.
And they will all make "heroic" choices.
How super fun it is to watch.

Kylo is really a mystery. No one knows what he will do next.
And THAT is actually fun to watch.

Even though he is THE big bad, people sympathise with him more than ANY hero in the ST.

He is the most talked about character of ST for a reason.

 

Obi-Wan, Luke and Anakin was whining quite a lot, much more so than Kylo.

 

Yeah, I feel more emotions in the brief moment in which Kylo spares Leia than in all the over-the-top accomplishments of Rey.

 

@vaderito

Speaking of Jane Eyre and P&P, I was doing some reading about romantic heros and it occured to me that Kylo Ren could be one....
He already fits the bill for a byronic hero.
But would it depend on how the story ends???