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Discussion Rey & Kylo Ren in Episode IX

Discussion in 'Star Wars: Episode IX - Spoilers Allowed' started by Sforza, Dec 13, 2017.

  1. Lost_Hope

    Lost_Hope Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Jan 15, 2018
    Yeah, he was destroying things because he couldn't control the Force. If they were afraid of him it only made things worse for him and them.

    Luke saw a future which became possible only after he tried to "stop" this future. Which is how all "futures" work in SW.

    He did push him into turning. All sources confirm this. If one side thinks that it's better to kill you, you kind of chose another side and see yourself as a monster if Luke Skywalker wants to kill you before you did something bad.

    What? What version of the novelization you read?

    Did Luke and Rey use the Force when they were kids and did they have Snoke behind their backs and did they get "Jedi training"? Right, they didn't.

    Luke showed Rey "Jedi training" on the first lesson and made her frustrated and straight out showed that there is something wrong with her because of the darkness.

    Yeah, I have more sympathy for them and Rey too but I don't see it as contest.

    Is it news for you that Kylo "signed up" to participate in mass killings?

    You thought he was kidnapped before the novel?

    Dark siders do not share and do not beg. It makes more sense to kill her.

    The movie and all novels state otherwise. There are a lot of light-siders in SW who "took the mass murderer's side". Well, maybe because they really wanted to stop "mass murdering," not to kill somebody.
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2018
  2. oncafar

    oncafar Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2017
    One thing I've considered is that Ben was broken whereas Anakin wasn't. Is Ben too damaged to come back? I think if this is the case this is a really sad story about a boy preyed on psychically by a powerful predator he could not fight off because he was only a child.

    Though I guess you could say Anakin was broken given that hole in him in which he needed his mother, which of course he used Padme to fill.

    This is why I have sympathy for these characters. Their darkness is always due to these very human needs--needs I understand as a human being.
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2018
  3. NileQT87

    NileQT87 Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Nov 21, 2002
    Yes, it's blatant in Aftermath: Empire's End and stated in several places that Snoke was already intruding on Ben's mind when he was still in the womb.

    Ben has never lived a minute without Snoke spying on him or manipulating him. It seems that from the womb through toddlerhood, Ben had constant trouble trying to get comfortable (Leia notices during her pregnancy) or sleep. Han describes two-year-old Ben as having been unable to sleep for days, only to be rudely awoken by the holo, preventing him from getting the little sleep he was finally getting.

    Interestingly, we have Kylo's line about Rey being "desperate to sleep", which, as many things he says, tend to be self-projection. Combine this with Luke standing over him with the lit lightsaber while he sleeps and Hux moving to assassinate him while he's knocked out. We're constantly being fed stories of Ben's childhood where he's struggling to sleep.

    Also, Luke made the future he saw happen. This is how Force visions of future events happen, as Yoda explained. One can make something happen that wouldn't have if the vision wasn't acted upon, because the future is in flux. Rey blatantly says that Ben hadn't chosen his path prior to Luke's actions. His future was in flux and Luke caused what he hoped to prevent, because he forgot Yoda's teaching.

    Also, the novelization BLATANTLY says what Ben's Force powers were doing as an adolescent. It was objects falling off shelves and malfunctions happening around him in private. As far as we know from Leia's own memories of her son, it was not scaring people in public or violence to people.

    Also, the novelization doesn't just describe him as angry all the time. The churning emotions was a blatant description of him having feelings for Rey--of a romantic nature. Rey comes to that realization in the elevator when that quote about "churning emotions" actually occurs. She realizes that the emotions coming off of him are about HER. This isn't a negative quote. Also, when the "monster" exchange occurs, we have Rey expecting anger, but instead only feeling misery at being seen that way. The way it reads in the film is self-loathing and the book backs that up with him feeling misery. Combine this with him overhearing his parents use the word "monster" behind closed doors. He likewise unmasked himself when Rey described him as a "monster in a mask"--he didn't want her to see him that way. He has a strong reaction to that word.
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2018
  4. Darth Gummybear

    Darth Gummybear Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Apr 15, 2016
    I do not give much credence to what the novels depict versus what the movies depict. I have not read any of the novels yet, but if they give a different impression of a character than the movie does, I would go with the movie’s character depiction. After all, the authors insert their own impressions to fill in the blanks.
     
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  5. Strategize

    Strategize Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Dec 18, 2017
    What's this? @RiddleMeThis pulling a goddamn heel turn?

    It's treason then...
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2018
  6. WebLurker

    WebLurker Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 12, 2016
    In this case, Rian Johnson was involved in hashing out the extra material and coming up with the motivations. So, there's a good bet that what the novelization tells us is Johnson's intent for the movie.
     
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  7. milena

    milena Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Jan 5, 2018
    @RiddleMeThis It's still one movie left, and maybe you will be back in this thread after IX to discuss it with us?
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2018
  8. oncafar

    oncafar Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2017
    Yeah but Fry novelization works for me...

    Also, I think Kylo POV is left out of Fry novelization for most scenes with Rey. It's there at the end after Rey is gone.

    I think Kylo is committed to the dark side and honestly when he thinks how Rey's sentiment will mean her destruction, I can see a whole crapload of emotion in that. This wasn't what he wanted.

    And one of the points is how divided they are. Neither will budge from their side of the Force. They are equally stubborn. The lightsaber longs for harmony and Rey can feel it, before they split it in two.
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2018
  9. Darth Gummybear

    Darth Gummybear Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Apr 15, 2016
    Just the adult novel from my understanding. Apparently, the children’s novel and adult novel portray Kylo quite differently. And even if Rian gave input on one of the novels, that does not mean he went through it with a fine toothed comb. What was his intent and what was the author’s since the author is the one who wrote it? If something in one of them contradicts the movie, the movie takes precedence.

    Rian Johnson’s intent comes directly from him. That is in the movie and in his director’s commentary.
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2018
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  10. Jedi Knight Fett

    Jedi Knight Fett Host, PT Interview Thread star 10 VIP - Game Host

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2014
    Anakin was most definitely broken by the end of Revenge of the Sith.
     
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  11. Lost_Hope

    Lost_Hope Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Jan 15, 2018
    For me too. I'm kind of not happy that we got not very much POV from Rey but better than nothing.

    I don't know what some people expected from Kylo and his background but they gave us very little information and I was sure that they won't make him hero in the past or something. Nowhere the novelization implies that he was psychotic mass murderer since birth. He had big problems with the Force and it seems nobody knew what to do with that except Snoke.
     
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  12. RiddleMeThis

    RiddleMeThis Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Dec 7, 2017
    Alright, I laughed. :p
     
  13. oncafar

    oncafar Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2017
    I haven't fully read it yet, but so far I too think Rey's POV is still rather lacking.
     
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  14. Star war

    Star war Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Jan 23, 2018
    I dont want that "hopeful ending".

    I just want to see
    - Poe get more of his own people killed and yell "woohoo" while blowing things up.
    - Finn to kill more stormtroopers he grew up with and become the badass resistance fighter.
    - Rey to start a new Jedi order (even though she doesnt know anything about the Jedi, Sith or well the force for that matter) ; oh and she can train them as "grey" Jedi.
    That would be cool.

    All in all, i just want our nobody heroes to crap all over the Skywalkers in the Skywalker saga.

    And you are right Kylo doesnt deserve anymore chances.
    He deserved to be rejected, abandoned and called a monster by his parents and Luke, when he was a child. Actually Luke should have just killed him in his sleep.
    That would be better.
    Bcoz he is born evil.
    I hope he dies.
    :)
     
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  15. milena

    milena Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Jan 5, 2018
  16. oncafar

    oncafar Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2017
    Episode IX: The Punisher

    Rey hates Kylo and Kylo hates Rey. There's still this sexual tension between them but it can only be expressed by trying to kill the other.

    "Rey, I'm your abusive BF," Kylo declares.

    "We were never together, you ****," says Rey.

    They cross sabers and try to tear each other's arms off.

    "This is your last chance to take enough physical punishment to convince some dudes you are worthy of Star Wars," says Kylo.

    "I will if you will just die evil for them," says Rey.

    "Oh, I will," he says. "I'll even give a speech about how I am the worst human being ever born."

    "Good," she says. "When my saber runs through your heart, you will thank me for ending you as you ended Han Solo."

    Kylo whimpers. Something about Rey stabbing him through the heart makes him long for his empty death.
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2018
  17. milena

    milena Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Jan 5, 2018
    Star Wars IX: You're About To Get Pounded, a plot summary...

    [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2018
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  18. rorow1

    rorow1 Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Jul 21, 2017
    I just started the audiobook last night and I became a lot less hopeful when I saw it had a male narrator.
     
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  19. Strategize

    Strategize Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Dec 18, 2017
    "How will JJ ever top this? You've officially saved Star Wars from the irredeemable hack Darth Rian Johnson, your services will never be forgotten."

    Yours sincerely, the ruined childhoods of 45 year old men and women.
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2018
  20. Lost_Hope

    Lost_Hope Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Jan 15, 2018
    [​IMG]
     
  21. oncafar

    oncafar Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2017
    Han's good at sending these evil Skywalkers spiraling off into space.
     
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  22. lovethedarkside

    lovethedarkside Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Oct 10, 2017
    Hmm...that's not how I interpreted the churning emotions. The previous paragraph talks about him seeing her parents. She then has a terrifying realization that his churning emotions are also about her. As in...her past and who she really is.
     
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  23. ReyRandom

    ReyRandom Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Jan 19, 2018
    May I add one of the emotions is "Longing" so yes you are right, but i interpreted it as he saw her parents and therefore believes she will stay with him hence the proposal scene so It is also a desire for her.

    Imo he probably wants to give her a surname and the family she desires since she comes from "nothing", it"s why he said "and because of what I saw... you'll stand with me" in the elevator.
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2018
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  24. NileQT87

    NileQT87 Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Nov 21, 2002
    No, I don't see the "churning emotions" that way at all. Why on earth would you think his emotions for her are about her being nothing or merely just the revelation of what he saw? That doesn't follow.

    They're both incredibly lonely and desire to find belonging after feeling abandoned, but the feelings about her are a bit more than that. His gaze is even described as "hungry--and knowing". His feelings for her are a bit more understood for what they are, while she's more confused by it, despite awkward shyness around nudity after even wondering if she could touch his face and hair.

    As for him thinking that her sparing him will destroy her... Well, I happen to have been in enough fandoms with characters filled with so much self-doubt and low self-worth that they believe they will destroy the person they love. That isn't necessarily a declaration of 'I'm going to destroy you' in terms of revenge (although he is hurt and lashing out for this rejection after baring his heart), but also potentially plummeted self-worth or self-loathing. These characters may believe that all they ever cause is pain and destruction, everyone they love will get hurt (especially if they return the sentiment), that they'll never be good enough and that they're "monsters" nobody can love. Ben Solo absolutely has a "Monster in Love" complex. Feeling like this is a common trait with that trope.

    Another scene to look to about Ben's emotional state is Fry's description of him in Snoke's throne room earlier in the film. He's crying under the mask over what he's done and gets shamed for it along with his weakness. Snoke doesn't actually believe Ben can ever fully rid himself of his sentimentality (which is seen as a weakness) and only uses him as a means to an end. This is made blatant in the novelization.

    His reaction to Leia's lack of anger and wanting her son back is also in the book. This is what he's sensing as he can't fire on her and the novelization even says he was planning to stop the missiles on her, but was caught by surprise by what she was feeling for him. This is also after a page of Leia's memories of him as a child. Leia also keeps hoping that Rey will be able to save "even Ben" in the junior novelization. It's a bit more than just Resistance vs. First Order for Leia. Leia wants her son back and for him to be redeemed. Killing Han didn't change that for her, whether the viewers can forgive/sympathize or not.
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2018
  25. WebLurker

    WebLurker Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 12, 2016