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Discussion Rey & Kylo Ren in Episode IX

Discussion in 'Star Wars: Episode IX - Spoilers Allowed' started by Sforza, Dec 13, 2017.

  1. Dragon Jedi

    Dragon Jedi Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Jan 2, 2018
    Well, I disagree since I see his character on a journey and this is exactly a [obligatory] step of the way towards redemption. The bottom of the pit has been reached, the climb to the surface will follow.
    Especially the madness, the hero losing his mind has famous parallels in the epic poems of the Middle Age ("Roland" losing his wits for love in Chanson de Roland).
    I noticed how carefully Jason Fry (backed by R. Johnson, I hear) insists on the "hurt" and "fear" instead of "hatred" (never mentioned in this scene) and "rage" (which is there but not the main emotion, also stated clearly by Fry) .
    In contrast we have Hux's POV all intent on domination "he would enjoy every engagement, surrender, and execution. The galaxy had been hobbled by disease for far too long, but Hux had sterilized the infection. Now he would cut out the dead tissue."
    You may not see it literally on screen, and this is your choice of interpreting the movie -- although in another post you mention the trope of the monster
    so you do not always take the film scenes literally. But I must disagree on your parallel with the Creature of the Black Lagoon since Star Wars is not a horror movie-- Yes, Kylo's a monster but in the fairytale variation "Beauty and the Beast", where the beast shows little by little the man inside, not to manipulate but for understanding. --

    I do observe the visual metaphores and TLJ is full of them (admitted by R. Johnson himself), so I do not ignore the "salt on the wound" of the entire Crait sequence. And to me this means literally pain but "disinfecting" as well. Wounds that are being disinfected do hurt -- a lot. But this is where they start to heal.
    Where there's healing, there's coping with the wound and what caused it (instead of destroying it), and where there's coping there's understanding, followed by acceptance and, finally, atonement.
    So this is implied, not even subtly, to me in the sequence of Crait, with blood red scenes, explosions with other blood pouring out freely from the core of the planet, just like Starkiller base (another metaphore for Kylo's state of mind) collapsed after one single, well placed blow (a stub in the heart?). The book adds the written emotions to support the visuals of the film.
    Another very clear implication from the Fry book and the film is that, regardless of being left alone kneeling in the salt, Kylo hasn't been abandoned at all.
    Luke: "see you around, kid"
    Leia: left the dices on the ground for him. If you replace the dice with a key you have literally a mother leaving her son the keys to home
    Rey: regardless of what you may think, SHE is the one initiating the last Force connection. The sequence in the book is from his POV (not contradicted by the film), Snoke is dead, he is in contemplation of the dice when the connection kicks in and he suddenly lifts his head (he does not "search the Falcon" for her, he is taken by surprise). So she has not abandoned him, she shows where he can find her but on her terms.
     
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  2. ReyRandom

    ReyRandom Jedi Padawan star 1

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    Jan 19, 2018
    Smut hut scene from the audiobook, lmao its so dramatic



    And lightsaber fight with Han Solo and the Princess playing (exact theme from ESB when Han is being separated from Leia cus carbonite freezing)
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2018
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  3. Star war

    Star war Jedi Knight star 3

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    Jan 23, 2018
    Kylo is the master of self projection. ;)

    Also very well said. :)
     
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  4. Dragon Jedi

    Dragon Jedi Jedi Knight star 3

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    Jan 2, 2018
    I found the book brilliant and touching. With less action and more attention to the inner feelings. Sometimes with an odd choice of words, yes. So I believe Fry didn't have free hand in writing clear text what were Kylo's and Rey's emotions here and there. Where he had, he's brilliant.
    "Churning" is an odd choice for an adjective, it is not what I would have chosen (I am not an English native speaker either, unfortunately). I admit I had to check the Webster AND Oxford Dictionary for a definition.
    But I got this, which is kinda fitting: "to shake and agitate with violence".
    It is curious he used that adjective to describe Kylo's feelings towards her in the elevator FROM REY'S POV.
    Then I thought: Hell, she does not recognise the emotion of passionate, violent love, does she? She is again scared by his intensity. That wouldn't be the first time.
     
  5. Star war

    Star war Jedi Knight star 3

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    Jan 23, 2018
    I think that people are taking the novelisations TOO literally and seriously.
    When we really shouldnt.

    Just my POV. :)
     
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  6. NileQT87

    NileQT87 Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Nov 21, 2002
    I'm a native English speaker. Churning emotions are rather more confused, uncertain and conflicted, not violent or angry (this is empathically a misunderstanding of the English language if you interpreted the word this way). Churning is a word that tends to be used to describe churning butter (hardly violent--rather slow in a repeated motion--like thinking something over in an endless loop) or churning, choppy waves in a storm (more violent--stormy thoughts). It's a word that describes mixing something in a constant agitating motion.
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2018
  7. oncafar

    oncafar Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2017
    OMG the voice for the audiobook... I'm not sure, but would Siri be a better narrator?
     
  8. Dragon Jedi

    Dragon Jedi Jedi Knight star 3

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    Jan 2, 2018
    This concept is resumed again in Jason Fry's novelisation. The vision of the future Rey saw takes another meaning for her now that she understood:
    She, like Luke before her, tried to influence a vision of the future she thought set.
    Is it only me or do you also see, from the sentence above, a subtle innuendo that in the vision of Kylo's future she saw also herself in it?
    I am sort of hoping now she did not. That when the future comes, if she decides to share it with Ben, it will be out of her free choice, not because she submitted to the will of the Force.
    I have my troubles with this "instrument of the Force" thing, actually.
    OTOH, hero archetypes do submit to the will of God, the gods, the Force, whatever. Don't they?
     
  9. Dragon Jedi

    Dragon Jedi Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Jan 2, 2018
    Thank you for explaining :)
    Although, I saw my grandma making butter, and boy! She did shake that churn vigorously to separate the water from fat. Yes, that's it: vigorously. Kinda violent too, depending on her temper that day.
    OK, so Rey saw his stormy, agitated feelings for her and she was terrified. Intense.
     
  10. NileQT87

    NileQT87 Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Nov 21, 2002
    Oh, f... Emphatically. Sorry for that weird typo.

    But yeah, stormy and agitated are good words, but I would add that confusion, uncertainty and conflict would be expected when "churning" is used to describe emotions. Also, the idea that someone has been going over and over in their head about that particular thought for a long while. It's that repetitive agitating motion aspect of the word, rather than anything violent.

    In regards to Ben and Rey in the elevator, this is definitely her realizing that he has a bunch of swirling thoughts in his head about her. He's "hungry and knowing" about what those feelings for Rey are. He has more of a basis in understanding what he's feeling, whereas she grew up in more total isolation with no real figures that could be of any help in that regard. Ben was a lonely child and adolescent and it's almost certain he's very inexperienced, but he had more exposure to templates to learn from.

    We know that young Ben followed his father around and looked up to him in the very early years. It also appears that Han was the one taking care of Ben (given his aversion to political life after the Battle for Jakku ended the Rebellion vs. Empire conflict) when Leia was wrapped up in politics. The change must have happened when Ben's Force powers started appearing, but we know Ben idolized Han and wanted to be like him (a pilot). Like Ben feeling jealous of Luke seemingly picking Rey over him (he didn't and rejected her, too, for being Gray, but Ben didn't know that), we have descriptions of Han teaching the young pilots like he would have taught Ben if it weren't for the Force/Snoke situation putting a wedge (?). Ben, like his father, is driven by emotions, falls head over heels and acts rashly (Han was not averse to property damage and foolhardy ideas that aren't planned). An interesting description in the books now is Leia comparing Ben's stalled path to redemption to Han's penchant for doing the right thing only after exhausting all the other options. There's also the parallel of Han falling for a girl he knew he wasn't worthy of.

    That would explain why he's quicker to understand he has feelings for Rey, despite the conflicted nature of them. But we also have scenes in the novelization where Rey is acknowledging her own curiosity or impulses.
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2018
  11. Dragon Jedi

    Dragon Jedi Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Jan 2, 2018
    OK, stirred but not shaken then.
    And a bit obsessive too, I get the picture.
    So much context in a single word. Isn’t it brilliant? Yes, I really enjoyed the novelization. :)

    Yes, it is clear to me that he has more grasp of the nature of his feelings than Rey. But I find it endearing that she acts (more than he does) on those feelings she does not fully comprehend, while he’s more knowing but guarded. She speaks with her body, he speaks with his eyes. I have my personal reading of his apparent hesitation towards physical contact, but that’s me.

    The little glimpses and parallels to Han were touching and beautifully rendered. Exactly that part just before Leia’s speech. Insights of Han only she had… and how that image you described slowly shifts to another that literally gave me gooseflesh, when she said that Han liked to think of himself as a scoundrel but he wasn’t, he was a hero at heart, fueled by his undying optimism/faith. The scoundrel mask protected his sentimental heart. And I thought of the “Han Solo’s heart” in Ben, who created the empty shell of Kylo Ren to protect that heart. Beautiful.
    And Ben actually did destroy what he loved, like in the lyrics I quoted yesterday “Moon Over Bourbon Street”, and continue to love what he destroyed.

    Did you like the novelization?
    Is it only me or have you also noticed that Ben Solo is separating from Kylo Ren? The process is only at the beginning but it is steady. One image I got is during the first Force connection, where Fry describes:
    And remembered a similar situation in TFA, Junior novelization, in the interrogation scene:

    The first student must have been Ben, a curious, according to @Birkendoc brainy nerd, padawan in Luke’s academy. The second was Snoke’s student.
    Brilliant how he's also infuriating to Rey, just like Leia described Han a few pages before.
    Yes, Ben Solo's out there somewhere and is getting back.
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2018
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  12. NileQT87

    NileQT87 Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Nov 21, 2002
    Something I've noticed... There are a number of themes that keep getting hammered home in all the expanded media tie-ins.

    Some of them I've mentioned like Ben's inability to sleep/get comfortable and Snoke's interference from before birth, the constant imagery and allusions to the Monster in Love trope (the "monster" with major self-loathing fearing they'll destroy all they love, that the object of their affections will destroy themselves by loving the unlovable or sacrificing too much to be with them, fearing or lashing out at rejection--even heroic examples of this archetype are known to react poorly, fearing being replaced by someone more deserving to the point of jealousy and desperately wanting to be seen as a man instead of a monster are all common traits of the trope), the idea that Ben is a big nerd who studies ancient lightsaber designs and calligraphy (Napkin Bombing) in a world where nobody writes anymore (the novelization meanwhile confirms that Rey can't read the Jedi books--add to this the emphasis on Ben being a student interested in the technical aspects of how the Force works when he keeps trying to figure out the Force Bond), background showing why Han was his biggest sentimental weakness that Snoke knew would cause him maximum pain, as well as intentional parallel moments where Han is head over heels for Leia, but feels she's something he "can't have"/is unworthy of. This stuff is not unintentional and each "flashback" isn't irrelevant to the Sequel Trilogy.

    This page was in the last comic:

    [​IMG]

    We also have the Battle of Jakku ending on the same day Ben was born, hammering home the idea that Rey was born in the place of the Empire's defeat as a counterbalance to him after he was born as a counterbalance to the defeat of the Empire, as if the Force was using them as vessels of balance.

    The story group seems to be giving various authors a very specific set of themes they want to keep showing up.

    Speaking of Leia's thoughts comparing Han doing the right thing only after exhausting all other options to Ben... Not to mention the foreshadowing of his death:

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2018
  13. Dragon Jedi

    Dragon Jedi Jedi Knight star 3

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    Jan 2, 2018
    Ancient lightsaber lore, calligraphy lore... Curious field of study for someone who wants to kill the past.
    And yet the study of the past is by definition sentimental.

    Which comics are those?
     
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  14. Star war

    Star war Jedi Knight star 3

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    Jan 23, 2018
    Yup Rey cant read the Jedi books.
    But Kylo is a big nerd. He can read them OR he probably already has ???
    "You need a teacher. I can show you the ways of the force."
    What could it mean ???

    Also Kylo was born the day PEACE negotiations were signed b/w the remains of the empire and the new repulic.

    Maybe HE will bring peace after all. ;)

    Just a thought.
     
  15. Star war

    Star war Jedi Knight star 3

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    Jan 23, 2018
    Maybe thats why he wants to create a new order bcoz he SEES the errors of the past.

    Its not sentimental, its actually smart. :)
     
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  16. NileQT87

    NileQT87 Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Nov 21, 2002
    Bottom is from the Han Solo comic (the very end of it). Top is from #44 of the main range just released (Mutiny at Mon Cala).

    Stuff that is turning up in the films, novelizations, comics and tie-in books all seems to be reinforcing certain themes again and again in more than one medium. And you can just sense the story group's involvement in getting the expanded universe authors to echo or hit a list of elements to include from the Sequel Trilogy. Rian Johnson adding the Napkin Bombing to Bloodline and his involvement in the novelization also show. Ditto on what the authors were clearly told about young Ben to keep including, which are his sleeplessness/discomfort because of Snoke and attachment to Han. The story group is very closely watching every mention of Ben in the books (there's no free range for the authors with him) and Claudia Gray got in trouble for writing too much--she had to take it all out (Bloodline).

    And oops, sorry, it was the day of the peace negotiations. Point still stands... Empire gone = new balance from the Force tilted Dark. Tilting too far the other way = new Light balance from the Force to correct it. Rey's home planet being the location of the Empire's defeat wasn't random. It also makes one wonder what was showing up in Ben's timeline when he was 9/10 years old that caused Rey to be conceived/born. Anakin was 9 years old when he entered the Prequel Trilogy. Just a thought. And yet, we seem to have Leia talking about Ben's Force abilities gone awry involving objects falling off shelves and malfunctions in private as an adolescent, not a child, which kind of conflicts with the concept drawing of Padawan Ben that looks about 9/10 or so.

    And yes, Ben really emphasizes that he really hates both sides of the Force and war, just wanting to end them both (we also see emphasis on Han disillusioned with the cause/politics and ultimately running away back to his neutral stance--he cares about the people he loves, rather than the fight). And yet, he seems to be the one most interested in studying them, going back as far as possible. Perhaps he's looking for answers to explain himself because the traditional answers don't work for him as being Gray, not Light or Dark? That would explain why he's looking to the most forgotten ancient sources that might contradict newer teachings. And perhaps he needed to learn a set of forgotten skills (ancient handwritten scripts being part of it) to get that knowledge. Rey might need Ben to find out what's in those books, regardless of her disappointment. That or Hux mutinies and Ben goes to her and perhaps offers what he knows and ability to teach.

    He might also feel victimized by being wanted as a weapon by both sides of the Force and both sides of the war; fighting a predetermined destiny that destroys all sense of self-determination. He was targeted from the womb by Snoke and predetermined to be a monster by his own uncle from a Force vision that hadn't yet happened. He may be seeking knowledge to master the Force, rather than see himself as its tool or weapon; to overcome its will in deciding his fate and causing so much pain. Rey even has a passage in the novelization regarding not killing him when he's knocked out where she sees it as not her place as the will of the Force to decide his fate.
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2018
  17. Dragon Jedi

    Dragon Jedi Jedi Knight star 3

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    Jan 2, 2018
    I have been asking myself this very question. Logical thinking suggests a critical increase of darkness in Ben triggered by one or more events in his life. I say it was when Leia gave up on his education and decided to send him to Luke to the academy. This caused this feeling of being abandoned, unwanted. "Han…was Han about it", did not object. That created resentment.

    Yes, that is why I cannot picture him inside the FO for much longer, not among the rebels, but I am confident that he will be among the main actors to stop the war doing something unexpected, something new and old at the same time.
    Two years is such a long time...
     
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  18. Birkendoc

    Birkendoc Co-Purveyor of ST Trivia star 4 VIP - Game Host

    Registered:
    Sep 20, 2001
    One of the most powerful moments from the novel that is rich with foreshadowing for Rey, Kylo or both is a little epilogue before the stable kid ending where the caretakers gather up Luke’s things and pack them away.

    Alcida-Auka verified that one of the daughters had cleaned the Outsider’s robes and put them away in the storage hut, along with his woolens, pack, and boots. She directed another daughter to take his weapon, his Star compass, and his strange other gear to the repository, where it would join other items gathered over the generations.

    Alcida-Auka checked over the daughters’ work and found it had been done as it should be. She cinched her habit against the wind, which had turned cold, singing to her of snow. When the snow came, the Lanais would sweep it away from the huts and stairs. Alcida-Auka didn’t know if the next Outsider would come in her time, or her daughter’s, or not until the tenure of a matron yet unborn.

    But another would come, and find all in order. Because the Lanais would do their duty.

    ***

    Rey and Kylo are going to find themselves on Ahch-to at some point. They will going to be searching for answers. There is information waiting there for them that transcends the Jedi and Sith. I suspect the lessons of balance will be found on a wintery island.

    Another passage in that sequence hints at true balance, that all are made of light and dark when the matron contemplates what happened to Luke.

    “...while the Master has simply vanished, his robes discovered on the ledge by the sea. Maybe he had leapt from the peak and had given his body to the waves. Or perhaps he had surrendered himself and become shadow, dispersing into the light and darkness from which all had been created. The Lanais’s songs recalled that both of these paths had been chosen before.”
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2018
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  19. Star war

    Star war Jedi Knight star 3

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    Jan 23, 2018
    You make good points. And wondering about the right questions, like why Rey was born 10 years after Kylo, what Kylo actually wants to do, why was everyone SO scared of him????

    Kylo is dangerous and unpredictable and SUPER powerful.
    Also Kylo actually has mastery over the force like no one else.

    You know, i think that just like Kylo couldnt control his powers before, when he was a child ; Rey going through something similar is coming.
    She is starting to understand the force, maybe she cant control her powers and need help, that would lead her straight to Kylo.
    Just like the cave. Only Kylo would know what to do and understand her and her problem.
     
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  20. Dragon Jedi

    Dragon Jedi Jedi Knight star 3

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    Jan 2, 2018
    Kylo will go to that island I'm certain of it.
    Simply out of curiosity of to find decent sleep for a night, following Rey's advice and dreaming of an ocean.
    The ST coming full circle.
     
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  21. Birkendoc

    Birkendoc Co-Purveyor of ST Trivia star 4 VIP - Game Host

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    Sep 20, 2001
    I love this symmetry. I think he will learn a lot about his uncle, himself and the Force if he makes that journey.
     
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  22. Dragon Jedi

    Dragon Jedi Jedi Knight star 3

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    Jan 2, 2018
    I think it was not by accident that he saw that memory. Comforting for her but he was smiling, looked intrigued, at the very least.
    Now a possibility.
    Oh yes, I love symmetries too.
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2018
  23. Birkendoc

    Birkendoc Co-Purveyor of ST Trivia star 4 VIP - Game Host

    Registered:
    Sep 20, 2001
    I think he will find one thing that will really make a difference:

    In the novel, the caretakers pack away Luke's weapon, ie his lightsaber. The book makes a point of this.

    perhaps Kylo Ren wants Anakin's lightsaber, but in fact it will be Luke's green one that calls to him and draws him to Ahch-To. Talk about the healing symbolism of the weapon that once nearly killed him being the legacy item that brings him home.[/spoilers]
     
  24. The Regular Mustache

    The Regular Mustache Jedi Master star 4

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    Dec 22, 2015
    Heh, what if in the crawl for Ep. 9 we learn that "Kylo Ren has vanished"?
     
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  25. Birkendoc

    Birkendoc Co-Purveyor of ST Trivia star 4 VIP - Game Host

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    Sep 20, 2001
    Ha! but I think he needs to figure some stuff out before he head off on his own personal journey to figure himself out.
     
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