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Discussion Rey & Kylo Ren in Episode IX

Discussion in 'Star Wars: Episode IX - Spoilers Allowed' started by Sforza, Dec 13, 2017.

  1. Strongbow

    Strongbow Force Ghost star 5

    Nov 6, 2014

    I agree. Rey, Kylo, or both will be back on that island at some point. I still hope for the ending I speculated about earlier..... (Kylo/Ben is exiled to Ach-To and he encounters his Uncle's old things, and maybe his Uncle too).
    rorow1, hermiona52 and Valency Jane like this.
  2. Dragon Jedi

    Dragon Jedi Jedi Knight star 3

    Jan 2, 2018
    That would be fitting! Green indicated a Jedi Consular, a Jedi who preferred to reflect on the mysteries of the Force and fight the dark side at its heart.
    But Kylo's a black diamond. Sometime in the future, when he'll build again his lightsaber (hopefully with Rey's mechanical skills) his blade will turn black and Rey's white, like in the mosaic representing the primal Jedi on Ahch-To.
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  3. Dragon Jedi

    Dragon Jedi Jedi Knight star 3

    Jan 2, 2018
  4. WebLurker

    WebLurker Jedi Master star 4

    Mar 12, 2016
    Except the movie shows us that Kylo's descent into the dark side is a one-way trip. If they were going for a redeemed story, there should've been foreshadowing for it (beyond hazy "the Force says you will" claims). Also, the "no hated" thing doesn't jive with the movie at all.

    So, you think we're getting a Stockholm syndrome story here? [face_phbbbbt]

    I was using the Creature movie since it was the only one I could think of that had the cliche monster and woman scene of the top of my head. Okay, in all seriousness, the Beast and Kylo are different characters, most importantly in the regard that the Beast wanted to redeem himself, while Kylo does not. The context is also very different (Kylo did not kidnap Rey out of wanting understanding at all). Also, while we do see the man behind the mask in TLJ, he turns out to be a very bad man. As stated before, this guy is not on a path to redemption, based on what we have right now.

    Is this something that Johnson has said, or our guesses? (e.g. "allegory vs applicability," as J.R.R. Tolkien put it)

    Luke also pointed out that he wasn't there to save Kylo's soul. And does that line refer to Kylo's redemption or simply the fact that he can't escape the evil he's done?

    Leia also realized that her son was gone. Even if we assume that the dice are keys, them vanishing seems to say more than anything else: "You can't go home again." (So far as I know, there's been no official explanation of the dice.)

    Little problem there, she didn't know how to do that, making it very unlikely that she was controlling it.

    That makes no sense. All she does is shut the door in his face. If she activated the link by choice (assuming she knew how), the only way that makes sense is if she was cutting ties. Shutting a door does not communicate "we'll meet again" at all.

    Between the door, the vanishing dice, the "we have everything we need," line, the movie seems to be telling us that Kylo is abandoned and he has no one to blame but himself. If the novel say otherwise, then Johnson did not communicate his vision in the movie at all and included a lot of stuff that contradicts it. (Also bear in mind that the canonical jr. novel doesn't support all this, either.)
  5. Dragon Jedi

    Dragon Jedi Jedi Knight star 3

    Jan 2, 2018
    She does. The novelization says she started the 4th force connection (the hut scene).
    And she can very well open a door and close it afterwards.
    I do it all the times.

    You simply do not know that. Kylo did not tell it to anyone and he can still change his mind. It's everyone's guess if you ignore the subtext and metaphors of the film. So, even at a very basic level, the film doesn't tell you what he's going to do in Ep. IX.
    I wouldn't hazard a comparison with the first monster image in my head. I could have used Alien, but that wouldn't have been fitting either. When you compare a monster to another, make sure first that it is the right monster you're picking.
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2018
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  6. Dragon Jedi

    Dragon Jedi Jedi Knight star 3

    Jan 2, 2018
    Kurosawa was the main inspiration for the Crait scene, even the duel between Kylo and Luke is inspired from Kurosawa's Hidden Fortress, if you have seen the film you'll recognize the final shot.

    Full article here
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  7. milena

    milena Jedi Knight star 3

    Jan 5, 2018
    Thanks. The battle on Crait was such a visually stunning shot.
    Lost_Hope and Star war like this.
  8. EHT

    EHT Manager Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Sep 13, 2007
    Speaking of Kurosawa, I believe his movie Rashomon was an influence on TLJ too, for the different viewpoints given by Luke and Kylo about what happened that fateful night. To quote Wikipedia, Rashomon "is known for a plot device that involves various characters providing subjective, alternative, self-serving and contradictory versions of the same incident."
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  9. WebLurker

    WebLurker Jedi Master star 4

    Mar 12, 2016
    Okay then. Haven't had a chance to read my copy yet (still plugging away through my comic marathon); does the book explain how she learned to control it, given that it's a big deal in the movie that she doesn't know how to do it and that neither she or Kylo have control over the sessions?

    There's nothing in the movie in suggest the door will be opened, much less that it should. I will concede if the novelizations and/or Episode 9 go that route that that's what's written, but I do think it's perfectly fair for me to voice the opinion that based on what we see in the movies, that they utterly botched the setup for it to the point that I feel it will be an illogical endgame at this point.

    Yeah, but is it likely he will? That's the question and I don't think he can hack it in this case.

    It's because of what's in the movie that I don't think that Kylo is redeemable (or at least that it'll be a copout if they go that route); he always choses the dark side when given the choice and shows no practical inclinations to good (it's the Deep Space Nine thing; Kylo is evil, because he does evil things).

    Fair enough, although I would make the case that Episode 9 should make sense in context of what came before it (and they'll have to do a heckuva writing job to tell a Kylo redemption story at this point, given that they'll essentially have to start from scratch and get to the payoff in one movie).

    The only point I was making was that that specific visual image in TFA has a couple of different possible meanings. At the end of the day, I find Kylo's consistent affinity for evil to be more telling than whether he looked like a movie monster in one random scene.
  10. WebLurker

    WebLurker Jedi Master star 4

    Mar 12, 2016
    Maybe, although the movie wasn't centered around it, like say the "Rashomon Job" episode from Leverage.
  11. Birkendoc

    Birkendoc Co-Purveyor of ST Trivia star 4 VIP - Game Host

    Sep 20, 2001
    I had a feeling this technique was familiar. Thanks for putting a film name to what felt was on the tip of my tongue.
    EHT likes this.
  12. mariel_rose

    mariel_rose Jedi Master star 1

    Jan 19, 2003
    Well got my novel. Read it. I found myself enjoying the characters of Rose and Finn more and I really want Hux to meet his doom!!! I find it interesting that he off his dad as well and is also power hungry. But it seems Ben regrets it...or at least that's I thought about a paragraph or two.

    Maybe the FO will be spilt in two with Kylo Ben with one half and Hux in leadership in the other.

    As for Rey and Kylo Ben, she is drawn to him and he to her, but she cares for him while he lusts. They are equal towards each other in the force. I don't know if Kylo Ben really understands what true care and love. Parents do their best but everyone makes mistakes.

    It was frustrating that there was so little POV from Kylo and Rey at times. All I know is the future is up in the air.

    What stuck me about the caretakers is they have tons of knowledge and junk from the past....also for some reason I think the force trees will have a place in the next movie. Letting the old tree burn down to in rich the soil for the tree seedlings on Yavin 4 or the tree wasn't completely dead in the first place.

    Also Ben might of been tempted by Snoke because of the knowledge Smoke had of the force, if Ben's a scholar then he would want to know everything! How to equal this light and dark together. Since Rey can't read the books and Kylo can, hopefully, then they would have some study sessions together! Lol! I just had a thought, maybe the secret Luke shared with Leia is that Rey has the old Jedi texts and Leia knows that Ben/Kylo knows how to read them and that Rey and Ben/Kylo have a bit of a understanding?! Granted the understanding is in a bit broken.

    But she's done something Anakin and Luke seemed to not get, the future is not set in stone, the whole self fulling prophecy thing. She realized her mistake so she's going to do what she always done...what she has learned...patience and waiting. Which the Skywalker boys never at least that's what I think!

    The question is, are the books written in a way that only Kylo knows or what? Oh, I wish Carrie was still here, Leia is a key to the last. Sniffles.

    And for a bit of a joke....for Reylo fans.

    Last edited: Mar 8, 2018
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  13. Valency Jane

    Valency Jane Force Ghost star 5

    Jan 17, 2016
    Lol; Hungry Eyes is great. :p There are FAR too many songs I've listened too since TLJ that have made think, "Ooh this fits Rey or Kylo or both of them!!!" 8-}

    Still waiting on my book. :_| Trying to keep up here but also not read all the spoilers is so incredibly difficult. :p
    At least there are those recently released clips of the throne room battle in the meantime. :p

    Was listening to a SW podcast (I think it was Skytalkers; they're very fun & pro-Ben-demption & Kylo/Ben in general) & they were talking about the TLJ/Rebels parallels in the last episodes of S4. Interesting stuff. Mentioned how Rey & Kylo touch hands & experience an aspect of the force (visions) while Ezra (dunno if this be a spoiler still but better safe than sorry)
    has to engage the channel the force into opening the portal by touching the hand of the daughter, & touching the son's to close it. (If I'm remembering correctly, I have a terrible memory. :p) Also Ezra facing the Praetorian-esque guards when meeting Palpy. Other stuff I know I'm forgetting.
    All of this may mean nothing! But it's interesting to think of connections between all of the stuff they're developing. It's all separate mediums but still connected imo since it's all canon, which is pretty cool. None of it's being developed in a vacuum. :)
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2018
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  14. Dragon Jedi

    Dragon Jedi Jedi Knight star 3

    Jan 2, 2018
    George R.R. Martin used the same technique in the Song of Ice and Fire book series. Unfortunately it is not in the HBO Game of Thrones Show.
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2018
  15. ReyRandom

    ReyRandom Jedi Padawan star 1

    Jan 19, 2018
    Yep i just finished the book too (and the audiobook). A few things I noticed:

    - Across the Stars plays when Rose kisses Finn - so it IS a theme that plays to simply convey love. It makes Reys monologue about waiting for Ben more emotional when Across the Stars plays in the background.
    - Han/Leia's theme plays when Rey is about to leave Luke to meet Ben, when she tells him "Then he is our last hope". A more orchestral version of the song (ESB carbonite version) then plays during the lightsaber tug-of-war when they are about to separate.
    - Ben is in love with Rey but probably doesn't realise it yet. From his hungry eyes, churning emotions, how his blood was boiling when it was revealed Snoke connected their minds (the connection obviously meant a lot to Ben) and when she was getting tortured as he could also feel it, how Snoke berated him because Snoke knew Rey was his "weaker half", when he woke up and realised Rey woke first but didnt kill him "like she almost cared for him", how he was so hurt after her "betrayal" and speaks her name like poison - Luke also sees the hurt in his eyes, and at the end when he searches her eyes for her reaction.
    I noticed the paragraph about how Leia felt her father had "possessive love" for Padme and thats what drew him to the darkside, so they're definitely trying to AVOID that route with Ben. Ultimately I think its great for the story that his feelings for Rey werent enough at this point since he picked power over her, it'll be more powerful in ep 9 when I believe he'll have some sort of epiphany and finally pick love over power, but pure unconditional love unlike grandpa Anakin.
    - i feel Rey is sexually attracted to Ben, cares for him and is drawn to him, and starts to develop feelings for him (shirtless scene reaction, feeling relief to see him as he understood her loneliness, how she wanted to touch his hands face hair, raw and powerful reaction between them, flying across the galaxy to save him, flirty banter on supremacy, her monologue about waiting for him) but will probably be in denial about it for a while to give conflict to her character in 9 and that is totally in line with her character anyway Queen of denial-ville.

    So Jason Fry has an editorial up on the official SW website about how the novelisation connects to the other SW books and comics and here's what he says about Kylo:

    Jason Fry interview about how he collaborated with Rian. He mentions he ensured he understood all the emotional relationships/arcs
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2018
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  16. WebLurker

    WebLurker Jedi Master star 4

    Mar 12, 2016
    I think Fry is pulling that from the Phasma novel (although Hux wasn't the one who actually pulled the tigger).

    I am very intrigued about the novel now.
  17. Akane

    Akane Jedi Padawan star 1

    Jan 20, 2018
    They are really being very careful not to show Ben's past. Seriously, I feel that they are treating him like a secret file or some kind of treasure and I am here wanting to know everything about him [face_waiting]
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  18. oncafar

    oncafar Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Jan 10, 2017
    But be wary! We know what they did with Snoke's past.

    Not sure this is a good comparison.
    Akane likes this.
  19. mariel_rose

    mariel_rose Jedi Master star 1

    Jan 19, 2003
    @Valency Jane Thank you for the spoiler tag...I just seen up to Season 2 of Rebels so I'm behind. :(

    @WebLurker about Kylo maybe regret I went back and read a spoiler in the thread that I skipped over until I read the novel, and something just clicked for me, and I was like oh so that's what it meant, because I was puzzled with Kylo's reaction when I first read it, or at least that's what I hope it means. I could be completely misreading it.

    I'm finding myself amused by how other people are reading the book and then I go, oh! So what's what they meant! Lol! I need to stop reading so fast all the time and pick up details in the first place.

    Speaking of details if I had to add scenes from the novel into the movie I would do Han's funeral, Rose and her sister because it made me really care more about Rose (I really didn't care for her) and her character development more, some more of Luke and Rey's scenes and the longer talk/give take with Kylo and Rey in the turbo lift.

    It would to me, add a heck of a lot more understanding and meaning to the movie.
    I would of added the caretakers bit in if I knew for certain that they would go back again someday. Or else fans would be what the heck?! You added that into the movie and we never went back there in episode 9?! Why did you do that for?!

    As much as I would of love it if Rey took Kylo prisoner after the saber split, in hindsight for the movie Cait would of gone very differently aka badly. Still the thought amuses me, "Well you started it Ben!" "Was not, I was following orders!" "Really? You sure about that!?!" "Er maybe?!"
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2018
    Valency Jane likes this.
  20. The Regular Mustache

    The Regular Mustache Jedi Master star 4

    Dec 22, 2015
    It’s almost as if they’ve held off on giving us info about Ben’s past because it would spill the beans that his past is somehow connected to Rey ending up on Jakku with the Falcon.:p
  21. Star war

    Star war Jedi Knight star 3

    Jan 23, 2018
    We will know about Kylo's story and also his POV in time.

    Patience, my young padawan.
  22. Star war

    Star war Jedi Knight star 3

    Jan 23, 2018
    Or bcoz Kylo's past is the mystery/ twist of ST and has nothing to do with Rey.
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  23. Dragon Jedi

    Dragon Jedi Jedi Knight star 3

    Jan 2, 2018
    It is illogical only if you isolate what you see in the rest of the movie or the novelization (both canon) and ignore all the rest.
    If you only stick to what it is showed in the film you should be consequent and stick to the images conveyed: the door of the Millenium Falcon is closing because the ship is leaving and it is leaving FAST because the FO is not 3 minutes behind. Period.
    That’s what the film says.
    But if you say that the film suggests that the door should never open again (not even to let the rebels out?) then you IMPLY that it represents a closed door in the face of Kylo. This is not in the film, It is implied by you. Then I say go ahead and please continue to imply. Which means start to imply/address also the uncomfortable questions, like:
    1. Who opened the last Force connection?
    2. Why?
    3. What does the context tell us?
    The novels confirmed that Snoke created the Force bond between Kylo and Rey. I did not want to believe it at first, but I had to give up based on the canon information we have: film and book.
    The connection is random at first, outside Kylo’s and Rey’s control, because it is Snoke that switches it on/off.
    BUT the film suggests that Rey, after the cave experience, contacts Kylo to have answers she cannot get from Luke.
    This is confirmed by the novelization, she does contact Kylo – So, in time she learns to open the connection to him.
    We do not know if Kylo has learned to do the same. Snoke is dead, so who opens the last connection?
    If it is the Force, then ask yourself why. Does the Force want them to say a last goodbye?
    If it is Rey, as it is logical to conclude because she has done it before, she can control it, nowhere it is suggested that Kylo ever could, then WHY?
    What is Kylo doing in that moment? He kneels on the ground, his attention focused on the dices. The connections kicks in and he suddenly lifts his head (=he does not expect it, he’s taken by surprise, this is Adam Driver's acting so it has priority over the book).
    Rey shows nothing: no fear, ho hate, no compassion. BLANK face. YOU READ NOTHING ELSE HERE.
    She severs the connection (the novelization alone tells that - Adam Driver's acting seems to confirm end of communication).
    Kylo looks back at the dices, belonging to the MF (=his father’s home from TFA – the place where he was conceived). What do represent the dices? The MF=HOME
    The dices are projected from Luke to Leia, Leia takes over the projection after Luke’s death. WHY? What is the message she left her son?
    The message is: “The door (the Force connection) is open, when you want to come back”
    (the dices then disappear because they are projected, they are still inside the cockpit of the MF, where they belong)

    Maz: “Whoever you are waiting for on Jakku are never coming back, but there is someone who still could

    Rey: "Rey would wait, however difficult that would be to do as the First Order warships descended on Crait. She would wait, and the future would unfold as the Force willed.
    That had always been true. The difference was that now she understood it."
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2018
  24. Birkendoc

    Birkendoc Co-Purveyor of ST Trivia star 4 VIP - Game Host

    Sep 20, 2001
    Or there was some sort of big event in his life at age 10 that cause the Force aid in her birth across the galaxy on Jakku. The Force created his equal to rise and met his growing darkness.

    So no, not siblings or cousins by any stretch of the imagination, but the Force knew he would need his equal to balance things when he was older and peaking in darkness.
  25. The Regular Mustache

    The Regular Mustache Jedi Master star 4

    Dec 22, 2015
    If she has to be random then I can see that being the case.