ST Rey & Kylo Ren in Episode IX

To be honest Kathleen Kennedy herself stated not long ago in an interview that they are looking at the next 10 years of SW beyond this trilogy with new characters like Rey, Poe, BB8 and such. I think sometime in the future Rey and Finn will go back, but rather later than sooner.

By no means I am opposed to full-blown romance in Episode IX, but I'm not sure it will happen. If it will - cool. But still, I think it will be much more subtle than that, partially because I'm a big fan of "show - don't tell" filmmaking. Though now it made me wonder, because JJ is not known to be the most subtle director.

 

He hasn't followed any pattern... Thats the thing about him...

 

KK said they would tell STORIES with these new characters not movies.

Rey and Finn are not getting any movies after 9.
They could get animated series, comics, books etc but not MOVIES bcoz these characters cant carry a movie on their own.
They dont have any story to tell or any conflict to overcome.
Whatever story/conflict they have will be resolved in 9.

But we ARE getting uncle Luke and Kylo's story and adventures together in the galaxy and the formation of Jedi temple soon.

 

Well, then we have to agree to disagree because for me movies are stories (even Kylo says to Rey this is not her story ).

"We're sitting down now, we're talking about the next 10 years of Star Wars stories, and we're looking at, narratively, where that might go," Kennedy said. "Future stories beyond Episode IX with these new characters: Rey, Poe, Finn, BB-8 — but we're also looking at working with people who are interested in coming into the Star Wars world and taking us places we haven't been yet. That's exciting too, because it's a vast galaxy far, far away."
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To me, nothing in those words suggest that it doesn't include movies. But it's not that important to Rey & Kylo in Episode IX, so I drop this subject.

 

Okay, let's examine it.

I'm feeling that the Pirates of the Caribbean quote "One good deed is not enough to redeem a man of a lifetime of wickedness" applies. Even if Kylo didn't want to kill his mother, he still had no problem murdering his father (and any regret seems to be pretty selfish, in that he regrets the pain it's causing him, not so much that he did something wrong). He has no problem ordering the deaths of other people and their mothers (heck, the TFA junior novelization specifically points out that he has no problem murdering people and does it without much thought). Loving one's mother and being one of the most evil men in history are not mutually exclusive. Heck, even Hitler loved his dog, as the old expression goes.

It was my understanding that Kylo was planning to off Snoke long before Rey came into the picture (didn't the novelization and Rian Johnson say that?) and started down that path after working out that the supreme leader saw him as another cur despite having given everything to him. Seeing as his first act is to take Snoke's place as the big cheese of the First Order, I can't see how this counts as evidence that he could still turn and if anything, that he's still deep in the dark side.

Seeing as he swore to kill her if she became a Jedi (and yes, we have to take that threat seriously; he's a mass murderer by first degree and accessory who's quick to kill for extremely little provocation), I find his empathy for Rey to be extremely conditional at best.

Looking at the movies, Kylo has indeed rejected every single offer of redemption -- Han did it in TFA and Rey did it in TLJ -- and chosen the dark side each time, and in each case chosen the dark side.

Note, that I never said that Kylo was pure dark, the best villains rarely are. What I have said is that he's evil because he does evil things. That's a quote I've borrowed from the creators of Star Trek: Deep Space Nine for one of their villains, Gul Dukat. Dukat is one of Trek's best developed villains, and, because of that, he has gray. His motives make sense from his perspective, he was shown to have his own sense of honor for a time (not a good one, but some kind of principle), had family he loved, etc. However, at the end of the day, he chose to be on the morally wrong side and commit evil acts, hence why the bill fits him.

Kylo Ren is a factually evil man; he knows what the right thing to do is and that he on the wrong side yet still choses remain on the dark side and remain the monster that he realizes he is. In that sense, he's a more evil person then Darth Maul, who was raised in an evil worldview from birth and follows that because he don't really know anything else.

 

I remember the last scene in "The Town" (with Ben Affleck). He said something like, wanting to change sometimes is not enough and he knew the crimes he committed and he recognized he had a long way to go to make it right. So in that speech, he says to his beloved that he knew someday they would see each other again, and I liked that kind of opened ending. He didnt asked her to wait for him. And that's sort of what I'm expecting for Ep IX and Kylo.

He has suppressed any second thoughts about killing cause he's committed to the dark, the interesting part starts when this promising villain starts to actually have second thoughts about it....

We're about to see how much love Kylo can feel and most important, act about it...

"Turn" as a full, is a big word now for Kylo...
But killing his master, the one who messed up his thoughts since the beginning, is a big step in turning into his true self...

She asked for saving the Resistance, not random people, but the guys that represent everything he's trying to wipe out.. I understand why he didn't go with her, and it is much better this way, it works better for the story telling of 3 movies..
Now, he was presented as the "bad guy" already, he wasn't the good boy that lately changed on screen... They didn't tell the story like that, they showed us the villain, with good origins, and then that precious scene of him talking to Vader's mask, asking for strength... They showed us how he "took the decision" to go dark in the past... then why start to regret it now? Now that you have killed your father? Why his last scene is on his knees bowing down? Instead of enjoying the glory of his dreams coming true?
This conflict they want to show in Kylo had to be worthy of the trilogy, therefore, they couldnt have him 'returning to the light' right in the first act, it has to be more complicated than that... And people around us, they show us the path, but they can't make the step for us.

There's evil in him, yes... And what is that other thing they keep telling us he was born with? Light. We haven't seen much light in Kylo Ren, just glimpses of it, more like obstacles for him to become a dark sider, so they need to show us more of that...

I think Adam said, Kylo doesnt think about what's good or bad, but what's the right thing... The fact that he thinks he has to be a monster to do the right thing its just... He needs to reorganize his ideas. I think he is starting to

 

That assumes that he would choose redemption in the first place, not something he seems inclined to do, based on how he handles the option.

Wonder if if he planned to spare his mother when he decided that his first act as supreme leader would involve wiping out the Resistance (and a whole lot of other people)?

I'm sure that Han could offer an interesting perspective on that. Rey too, if she knew that Kylo would kill her if she didn't capitulate to him.

So is true self is becoming a bloodthirsty evil overlord who wants to knock over all the building blocks and smack his general around like a rag dool in hopes that it'll bring him happiness?

My point was Rey went with the intent of bring Kylo back to the light and it turned out all he wanted was to be the master of the dark side, not the apprentice. (He truly did get his wish to be as strong as Darth Vader, if not stronger, in the dark side).

Which he seemed to have got, all things considered.

I don't think he liked how everything turned out, however, there is a difference at feeling guilt for what you've done and just feeling sorry for yourself that you didn't get everything on your list or that your friends don't want to play evil tyrant with you. Kylo seems like the latter. His great wish was to become the next Darth Vader. None of that seems to have changed. He just seems upset that Rey doesn't want to come over to the dark side and that killing his father didn't boost him the way it was supposed to and all that.

I agree that Kylo needs to choose it, I just think that the movies have shown that he won't.

Isn't it a bit late to put that into play after spending two thirds of the story showing that he's full on dark sider. I mean, again, when given the option between the dark side and the light, Kylo always chooses the dark.

If that is Kylo's worldview, then I can't see how he's even capable of going to the light. Seeing as he hasn't shown any remorse for his actions (and plans are taking him even deeper into the dark side), I don't see how this will end well for him. Maybe Episode 9 will have something give, but as of right now, Kylo is locked on a course for death and destruction.

 

Oh i agree, Movies are stories (and Kylo wasnt wrong, this in not Rey's story, its Kylo's but from Rey's perspective ).

And you are right, they ARE planning stories for next 10 years with
- Rian's trilogy which will be about the origin of the force set thousands of years before the old republic
- Dan & David of GOT, their movie series (still in planning),
These are the movies we are getting after 9 and more with the anthology movies.

Kylo, Rey, Finn, Poe, their stories will be wrapped up in 9.
Also these new actors have signed a contract till 2020.
After that they dont want to do any more star wars movies, especially Adam Driver and Daisy Ridley.

And since they are wrapping up the skywalker family story in 9, we are not getting any more skywalker saga movies. But we will still get the SOLO descendents' movies in coming years( not anytime soon though).

Rey and Kylo's story is gonna be awesome.
At most we getting 2 more movies with them.

 

Well, certainly not redemption in the conventional way... I see some similarities with Magneto and Mystique (in the films).

I wonder that too! Kylo has a lot of turbulence inside him. If I thought that the throne room meant he was suddenly going to turn, the Crait scene was a magnificent slap on my face, like, wait there... Not that fast! We still have to solve Luke's stuff...

Kylo should kill her, as much as he should've killed Han... Connections with people are the weaknesses he's trying to kill... Everything so far, is understandable to me... (Please remember this is a story in a movie, I'm not trying to stand for a behavior like that in real life)

No, he was pressuring the wound. At the end its pretty clear thats not his hobby really.

I havent even thought like that. What I saw was him not wanting to be on the light side ... He wanted to destroy both concepts by creating a new one along with Rey...

Hmmm, he's so vulnerable its a shame... All ruled by his emotions.

Hmmm we just see it so different. :/

I agree that TLJ hasn't settled anything for Kylo, it kinda pissed me off that it wasn't clear enough... But I get how they are dealing with it... And I like it, the uncertainty, the waiting... It's much more exciting.. To have hope regardless of the most cloudy scenario we could've get... It's something I'm really thankful for to SW Even though for me, the question would be more about the "How" they're gonna make it... They still have to convince both of us.

 

Why? What would be so disturbing if the two heroes of a movie shared a kiss?

Watch closer:

He killed the Supreme Leader, he burned the banners of the First Order (with Rey), he says "Let it ALL die" ("all" means everything) -- is it still not clear enough? He wants to make a NEW rule, a NEW order WITH Rey, not perpetuating the First Order indefinitely. We'll never know what his agenda would have been like, Rey refused.

 

Not at all. He wants to destroy ALL, no more masters, no more factions,
There is a problem in your logic: masters of the dark side always have an apprentice, always.
Kylo offered a partnership among EQUALS, not to be Rey's master, he says "We can rule together", not "Let me be your master".
Notice the difference?

So, do you have another explanation why Kylo could not accept Rey's proposal to "go back to the light"?

 

For me? Of course not. But there is a lot of hate pointed toward Rey falling in love with a guy who tortured her, that Rey would follow the classical misogynistic trope of a girl falling for a bad guy and such. I think they might go more cautious with presenting their relationship on the screen in a way that it would show an obvious love between them, but avoid triggering big parts of fandom. I don't really agree with this - TLJ turned me from Reylo hater to Reylo supporter, but I'm trying to think outside my box.

 

So the reason why you would be shocked if they kissed is because you fear the reaction of the fandom? Even though you disagree?
Why would Disney do that? If you feel that the story they are telling is by no means misogynistic or abusive (which is not, by the way) I think you should support the storytelling from your POV, not from very one-sided fans.
Just my two-cents.

 

The flag was burning because Rey through the guards weapon into it, thought that was obvious. When Kylo lists the things that need to die, the FO was suspiciously absent. You’re seeing things that aren’t there and you’re trying to blame Rey for Kylo’s actions.

 

No, you misunderstood me. I would be shocked that Disney had balls to do it. And though I would have no problem with a more obvious romantic storyline I would also like a more subtle one. What I don't agree with for example are all of those people who says Ben is unredeemable or even if he is redeemed, he must die. But I care about the quality of presentation of Ben and Rey relationship - I'm open to either obviousness or subtlety, as long as it's good.

 

Am I? Or perhaps you're deliberately closing your eyes on what is obviously there and even "oversee" the sentence where I say he burned the banners WITH Rey? And when Kylo say: create a New Order?

 

I think a large part of the fandom is already triggered by what transpired in TLJ . But from what I've seen, most of the complaints don't have to do with what happened between Rey and Kylo anyway...which was generally well recieved by critics who didn't have any preconceived notions of what they wanted to see going into the movie.
And it just goes to show that Lucasfilm aren't afraid to take risks and tell the story they want to tell and I certainly don't think they see the relationship between Rey and Kylo as something misogynistic, which it isn't. Rey is empowered, makes decisions on her own and learns throughout her journey that some things just aren't as black and white as they seem.

 

He didn’t burn anything. Watch the movie again. He also refuses to stop murdering Rey’s friends and then takes over as Supreme Leader. There’s absolutely no indication that he wants the FO to be destroyed too, it’s obviously his way of achieving order.

“Snoke, Skywalker, the Sith, the Jedi, the rebels, let it all die.” No FO.

 

Ok. I understand. Most of the troubles come from ambiguity which is intentional. Some people prefer clear text and black and white. I'd take ambiguity anytime. At least in arts. It is much more intriguing.

 

A "new order" is by definition not the First Order a.k.a. Empire wannabes led by Snoke. Also, Snoke was the First Order. He was their leader. Ben Solo was mentally and physically tortured by Snoke since before he was born (canon) and took Han's words to heart in understanding that he was just being used for power. And if you haven't figured it out, Kylo and Hux mutually hate each other's guts. Hux runs the First Order now. Let's not kid ourselves. The army and Stormtroopers are loyal to Hux.

Hux's inner thoughts in the novelization also make it clear that he feels there is no place for the Force in the First Order--not even Snoke. Given that Kylo Ren is a Force user, Hux is making it clear in his inner commentary that there is no place for him in what he envisions.

Ben is hanging on a very tenuous lie. He only took the role of Supreme Leader as a survival tactic when Hux was about to kill him in his sleep with an alibi made up on the spot. That was out of desperation and fear, not because he desired it. He actually wanted something new with Rey as an equal at his side.

It's redundant when listing Snoke and Sith that Snoke's vision for order is NOT shared by Ben. By rejecting both Jedi and Sith alike, Ben is also embracing a new order different from the failures of both that he sees as intrinsically flawed, personally betraying and he finds no belonging in. Ben likewise finds no belonging in the Resistance and First Order alike. That message is hammered into him, all the while believing he had finally found a way out by finding his belonging with Rey (only to learn she still clings to the old order), but he's still raging at the betrayal of his family after dealing with the betrayal of Snoke.

 

He says: "Let it all die" Does the word "All" have any meaning to you?
Again watch closely: what is exactly his idea of order? Do you know? Because I don't. He never gets to that point because Rey did not accept his offer. It is NOT IN THE FILM.
What he does AFTER REY LEFT HIM, is plan B out of necessity and sense of betrayal.

 

What we do know is that order means killing the rebels, because he says that before Rey “”betrays”” him. Let it ALL die, does that mean himself and Rey too then?

If he truly believed the FO had to go then he would have taken Rey’s proposal since he’d pretty much have the same goal as resistance.

 

Oh yeah, the thing I love most about the dynamic between Rey and Kylo and what I find most appealing about it is that it does mostly rely on subtlety, tropes, subversion of tropes, symbolism, metaphors, imagery from concepts like 'Adam and Eve' or 'Beauty and the Beast' or 'Hades and Persephone', which have been enjoyed by people throughout hundreds of years of storytelling.

 

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Anakin's temptation wasn't Padme, it was Palpatine. He tempts him with power to save his wife. His wife isn't the temptation

Here is a very very simplistic summing up of these key phases: http://changingminds.org/disciplines/storytelling/plots/hero_journey/meeting_goddess.htm
http://changingminds.org/disciplines/storytelling/plots/hero_journey/woman_temptress.htm

So its clear from that, Rey is looking for a god to teach her, the next part of her journey. Anakin's was Padme, Yoda's was the Force Priestess, Luke's was Yoda and Rey thinks Luke is it for her. But this teaching is not necessarily the type of teaching we think of, that is what the mentor does. Rey's mentor was Han. The meeting with the goddess is about self realisation and it doesn't need to be active learning. We can go step by step and compare the two

'On the road, the hero may meet a powerful female figure with whom he find unity and bonding of some kind.'
Anakin and Padme, reunite and get married
Rey and Kylo, forcebonds

'The goddess may be a mystical or supernatural being or she may be an ordinary woman with whom the hero gains support and synergy.'
Anakin and Padme in episode 2, she is trying to tell Anakin his emotions are human and that is all he can be while offering him support. When she's around Anakin is soothed.
Rey and Kylo, Rey gets support very obviously from Kylo in the 'smuthut' and their force bond shows synergy

'The goddess represents the female side of the hero (his anima) which, if he can join, will make him whole. Joining with the goddess may indicate unconditional and perfect love.'
Anakin and Padme, obviously join. George even has Anakin tell Padme that he sees compassion as unconditional love. We see Anakin and Padme do love each other unconditionally, to the point people find it unrealistic. He commits a mass murder, she comforts him. He kills children, she just wants to run away with him. He strangles her and she dies saying he's still good. He accuses her of betraying him in a plot to murder him and upon coming out of his fury asks about her wellbeing. It goes both ways, she just gives him less to forgive
Rey and Kylo, we are told that Kylo has 'compassion' for her, pre defined as unconditional love in the series. He killed her mentor and she's still trying to save him. Kylo may think she has no compassion any more, but as we know, its unconditional love so it can never go away. This is supported later by Rey in the book, she's good at waiting. She's not given up. There are no conditions to love. Note, this doesn't need to be romantic love.

'In combination, the hero and their other half form the syzygy of the 'divine couple' or the sacred marriage of a joining of souls and hence the hero gains greater power.'
Anakin and Padme, obviously get married at the end of episode 2. When we next see Anakin in Episode 3 he's a far more levelled out man and a better jedi. Even Obi Wan seems surprised by this when he suggests patience.
Rey and Kylo take this very literally in that Rey's awakening is at the hands of Kylo. He's the one that brought this power out in her and as he gets stronger so does she. They are 'two halves of the protagonist'

'In mythological history, one of the earliest representations is in the Greek story of the earth mother Rhea, who saves the baby Zeus from his Titan father, Kronos. The earth mother also appears across many cultures and represents the living embodiment of the planet.'
Anakin and Padme, well Padme is from the most lush planet in the cosmos. George very specifically compares the waterfalls in Theed to the Fire falls in Mustafar in his design. Her palace on Theed is echoed in Vader's on Mustafar. Her funeral outfit makes it look like she's drowning like a lotus in a river, Anakin's funeral is a pyre of fire. Its a duality, heaven and hell, water and fire. Padme embodies nature, her last act is to bring life. In mythology this is a woman's ultimate power as its one that man can never have. Padme's children are then able to enact her will in the world.
Rey and Kylo, Kylo being the decedent of Padme and Anakin, himself with a virgin birth godlike beginning, represents at least something of a demi god. That mighty Skywalker blood is mentioned repeatedly. He is of a 'divine' lineage.


'When the hero is female, then this may be a reversal, with her meeting a God who represents her animus.'
Anakin and Padme, Anakin was named after Lucas' friend. It seems to me that upon writing episode 1 he noticed the similarity between Anakin and Anima/Animus. So in creating Amidala he seems to have used Anima as a beginning. Anakin and Amidala, Anima and Animus. Two halves of the whole.
Rey and Kylo, obviously seem to be playing this yin/yang role. This has been well discussed.

Which leads us on to the Temptation. Because the female hero was rare Campbell specified this as woman but of course it can be flipped. The God/Goddess can be the temptation. An example would be Odysseus staying with a goddess for 10 years on his journey home before rejecting her to go to back to his wife Penelope.

'This offers the hero short-term relief or gratification but giving in to this urge would cause the mission to fail and prove the hero unworthy.'
So for Odysseus this was a short term pleasure. For Anakin, he's looking for a way to save his wife from dying. His wife isn't the temptation. The power to save people from dying is the temptation and its dangled in front of him by Palpatine. Of course, Anakin already did this once on Mortis, lending more credibility to his belief it could work, he didn't notice it was the light that gave life and not the dark.

'In contrast with the perfect love of the goddess, meeting the temptress represents material and carnal love that, whilst providing short-term pleasure has no longer-term value.'

The power that is the temptation represents a way of saving people Anakin loves, the material world. Its not just Padme, Anakin has a problem with loss since Qui Gon and Shmi. Untimely death seems to constantly follow him. Mix this will his history as a slave where he was owned as commodity and bam, Anakin's problem. Palpatine is smart enough to see this and dangle this temptation in front of him. You could even argue Palpatine's manipulation to get Anakin and Padme together again suggests Palpatine intended to use her as temptation but as usual with his attempts to use Padme, its doesn't entirely work the way he intends. Anakin's temptation is not carnal as Palpatine probably expected. Sex isn't what destroys Anakin.

'The temptation may be deliberate and perhaps sent by the villain. It may also happen by chance. The Goddess may also play a role of temptation.'

Similarly we see Snoke use Kylo as temptation for Rey to lead her into the Journey to the Underworld but then Kylo tries to tempt her himself. Rey, like Odysseus fails the first test but passes the second. Her temptation is not material, its not carnal as Luke seemed to fear, its desire for a sense of belonging.

 

No.
What we do know is that that order means "let the old ways die", which is exactly what he says and it is confirmed in the novelization when Kylo confronts Luke.

And we come back to the real pain point: Why didn't he join Rey? Why didn't he take her offer to embrace the light? Because it came with a clause: Join the Rebellion, which is something he could never identify with.

As @NileQT87 beautifully pointed out (hope you don't mind if I borrow your post):