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ST Rey & Kylo Ren in Episode IX

Discussion in 'Sequel Trilogy' started by Sforza, Dec 13, 2017.

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  1. oncafar

    oncafar Force Ghost star 6

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    Jan 10, 2017
    I suppose I don't expect anything interesting. I expect Kylo to be a tyrant who eventually fails to maintain power.

    But it's because this is what the bad guys are in Star Wars, and the end of TLJ ended intentionally with everyone clearly on their sides.

    It was even in the marketing: Choose your path. Fulfill your destiny. (Oops I remembered it as "side" instead of "path." But they did all choose their paths which are either good or evil, one side or the other.)

    And in TLJ choosing a side and being resolved in it is a theme. It's shifted any ambiguity into a binary. Because that's all there is.

    So Kylo will be evil as a ruler. And he'll fail too.
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2018
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  2. Dragon Jedi

    Dragon Jedi Jedi Knight star 3

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    Jan 2, 2018
    You see, I too want him to excel at something and to be spectacular at that.
    Do I want to see him as ruler? A politician? A diplomat? Hell, no.
    I'm still dreaming of the 10 seconds we got to see of his flight attack on the Rebel fleet.
    His sword fighting is a war dance that would make the best Haka performer go pale.
    His mental skills combined with poker face in fooling and killing Snoke were beyond awesome.
    These are his strengths and I suspect his real passion too. He'd be wasted as ruler.
    Let him be the best grey Jedi that ever lived.
     
  3. milena

    milena Jedi Master star 3

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    Jan 5, 2018
    I wouldn't mind if he's a ruler, spectacular even, for a while (I imagine there will be a time jump of a few years) and then he can be the Jedi he was always meant to be.

    You're right, the 10 seconds we got to see of his flight (skills) attack on the Rebel fleet was awesome and I'd love to see more of that. I'm also dreaming of him piloting the MF.

    And I hope they will let him use his powers more in 9.
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2018
  4. Orlando_Calirissian

    Orlando_Calirissian Jedi Youngling

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    Mar 18, 2018
    I am using a German keyboard so this hopefully won't come out all over the place, but I found that Kylo seems to have better strength when Rey is around. His tantrums towards the end being fuelled by Rey not joining his new Order.
     
  5. Dragon Jedi

    Dragon Jedi Jedi Knight star 3

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    Jan 2, 2018
    @mariel_rose Kylo is a predator. Ben Solo is a giddy schoolboy, regardless of who's around.
    Rey is a predator too, less with Kylo. A LOT with Luke. She's quite The Stalker in fact. Regardless.
    Together this is what they do, hunt and chase, catch and release. It's the whole dynamics of the push-an-pull of the Force that draws them together. They get scared, resist the pull and tear apart.
    Kylo is let's say 70% of the times the predator with Rey with few exceptions: The fight in the snow, sometimes in the Force bonds and after the handtouch scene. Then she is the predator, she goes into the dragon's cave to hunt him. In the elevator she's the predator, she moves in his space, she "proposes" to him ("Look at me Ben") and he's the prey --a rather uneasy one ("He looked lost".)
    After the PG fights there's another switch: He is the predator again and he scares the living daylights out of her. And she runs.
    I find this whole dynamic sooooo intriguing.
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2018
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  6. Star war

    Star war Jedi Knight star 3

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    Jan 23, 2018
    I think Kylo's tantrums on Crait were fuelled by his anger, rage, pain and fear of Luke.
    Before Luke showed up, he was actually fine and smart.
    He even brought Hux along to keep an eye on him bcoz he knew, Hux will try to betray/backstab him somehow.

    Kylo is not a dumb character. Atleast he doesnt seem that way to me. He is actually rational like when he killed Snoke, he bought time and thought quickly on his feet.
    Or during force skype sessions with Rey, he was always calm and rational while Rey was always aggressive and emotional.

    Also what is most fascinating to me is that Kylo is the only one who is trying to build/create something new.
    Isnt it our heroes' job??
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2018
  7. Star war

    Star war Jedi Knight star 3

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    Jan 23, 2018
    DP
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2018
  8. oncafar

    oncafar Force Ghost star 6

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    Jan 10, 2017
    I want to think that something new in general will be built. But I just really have the feeling that the ST is the OT again basically. They set up New Empire vs. New Rebellion. New Rebellion will win and restore New New Republic. Peace and justice will be restored to the galaxy again! And there will be a promise of the Jedi order being rebuilt (New New Jedi).

    It reminds me of an interview I can barely remember about when LFL? met to discuss if the Skywalker Saga will continue and they are like, well it depends if there are any new stories.

    Was there a new story this time? It's like if all they can do is ST = OT 2.0 then I think they are perhaps already out of stories?
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2018
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  9. Orlando_Calirissian

    Orlando_Calirissian Jedi Youngling

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    Mar 18, 2018
    I wouldn't go so far as to call Rey a predator. The two characters shared some things together over the time Rey was with Luke. How much they shared is unknown (To me anyway) so I think Kylo wasn't uneasy having Rey in his personal space. I mean he did want her to join his new Order o_O
     
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  10. M70ko

    M70ko Jedi Padawan star 1

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    Jan 25, 2018
    Well of course it's fun! But also, yeah
    Nuts :p
     
  11. Star war

    Star war Jedi Knight star 3

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    Jan 23, 2018
    You know, i completely understand where you are coming from.
    When i watched TFA i thought that too.
    It seemed to me that
    FO was basically Empire 0.2 , resistance was rebellion 0.2 ,
    Kylo was new Vader, Rey was new Luke (at that time i thought she was the "good" Skywalker).
    Just a rehash of OT but with the female lead.

    But TLJ completely changed my thinking and i loved it so much.

    - Kylo (our big bad) is the last skywalker/solo and now ruling the galaxy.
    (This is the thing i loved most, a skywalker FINALLY on top.)
    - Rey (our hero) is a nobody, not related to any character we know (best parentage tbh for her).
    - Rey and Kylo's weird "love story/connection".
    - Luke not training Rey at all, instead she took help/learnt things from Kylo ( didnt feel like Luke-Obi wan situation).

    But yeah FO vs Resistance really felt like a rehash even in TLJ.

    So i am more interested in Rey-Kylo story.
    That seems new and fresh to me.
    :)
     
  12. milena

    milena Jedi Master star 3

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    Jan 5, 2018
    ALL OF THIS.

    He was calm up until he saw Luke and got triggered. After their confrontation he was calm again.

    He was very smart in how he handled Snoke and Hux. He was curious (about the connection) and calm, and oddly (for him) patient in the force Skype sessions with Rey even after she tried to shoot him and snarling curses at him.

    I'm curious about what he wants to create. He wants something new, he wants a change and we don't know what that is yet, what it means, exactly.
     
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  13. Star war

    Star war Jedi Knight star 3

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    Jan 23, 2018
    Only Kylo knows what he will do.
    They did a really good job of keeping Kylo's POV and motivations ambiguous for the audience.

    He could be the ruler that this galaxy needs or he could be more cruel than Vader.
    It could go either way at this point.
    And the fanbase is split as well for him.
    Some want him redeemed and some want him dead/punished.
    Its a good thing.

    Kylo, sure is an interesting character and popular going by the video of little kids shouting "Kylo Ren" after seeing Adam Driver on streets while shooting.
    :)
     
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  14. milena

    milena Jedi Master star 3

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    Jan 5, 2018
    Yes indeed, they kept his POV and motivations ambiguous. It's very curious and exciting, and I can't wait to find out what he has planned for the galaxy.

    It was so adorable. They were so cute, and looked so happy and smiling while shaking Adam's hand, "It's Kylo Ren!" [face_love]
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2018
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  15. Dragon Jedi

    Dragon Jedi Jedi Knight star 3

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    Jan 2, 2018
    Of course Ben is well happy to have her around, nevertheless the switch in their personalities happens and this is what causes the whole push and pull between them, from the very beginning, from TFA. You can see it at a superficial level and call it "irreconciliable differences", or you go into the deep of the subtext, analyse the body language (read the book) and the predator dynamic is more clear.
    The predator-thing is visual in the film, but if you read the novelization is clear-text and it is evident in both.
    Just count how many times Kylo's eyes are described as "hungry" (that's a predator attribute) - Snoke's eyes are "hungry" (another predator).
    Just observe how she attacks Luke (in the film even) to defend Kylo ("He stared up into the rain, surprised, at the young woman standing over him with her teeth bared."), it's a she-wolf there.
    Just look how many times she bares her teeth at the PG. After the Praetorian Guards fight, she is "gasping for breath, then looked at each other. Rey’s eyes were filled with joy". That's the predator there (who elso on Earth would be filled with joy after a carnage?)
    That he looks lost when she's the more aggressive is written in the book, but just rewatch the elevator scene and see how Kylo does not move at all, and how he actually looks uneasy when she calls him "Ben" and gets very close.
    But Kylo has more intensity (courtesy of the Dark Side I suspect) and in the end he is more "scary", yes.
     
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  16. mariel_rose

    mariel_rose Jedi Grand Master star 2

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    Jan 19, 2003
    @Dragon Jedi Now the question is Rey going to fully catch Kylo or is Kylo going to catch her?! Or are they going to compromise and catch each other?!

    Lol!

    It's interesting how protective Rey is about Kylo Ben against Luke and Snoke, considering what he did to her and her friends. Kylo Ben isn't as quick on the uptake until he decides to take his dad's advice against Snoke but even then we don't know all his thoughts at all.

    Kylo is the loose cannon in all of this. Disney is keeping a tight lid on his past and motivations,...except he wants Rey and the past to die.

    For shocking twists if Rey ends up with a toddler because of "force hand touching sex hut scene" I'll have to cry noooooo!!!!!

    As for Anakin and Kylo's abilities to talk to the females of the species, I give you this line from the movie Agent Cody Banks:

    CIA Director: [talking to the other agents] We spent 10 million dollars training this kid; and we did not teach him how to talk to a girl?

    *snickers*
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2018
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  17. The Regular Mustache

    The Regular Mustache Force Ghost star 6

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    Dec 22, 2015
    When are these two crazy kids going to smooch? Will we learn about the smooch in the crawl? Will it be when one of them is on their deathbeds? Will they smooch right before they team up to attack the First Order? Will the smooch be what turns Kylo back to the light side? Will they smooch before they part ways and Kylo goes into self imposed exile never to smooch again? Will Kylo smooch Rey unexpectedly and Finn catches them mid-smooch and then storms off and smooches Rose to get back at Rey? Will Poe be bothered by the smooch because everybody on the Falcon kept telling him, "Dude! You have some serious chemistry with Rey"? Will Chewie feel betrayed that Rey is smooching the guy that killed Han and out of Wookiee frustration he smooches a porg and then eats it? Will Force Ghost Luke appear directly in-between Rey and Kylo as they're about to smooch in an attempt to stop the smooch and it looks like Rey is about smooch Luke but then she goes right through him because he's a ghost? Will Rey and Kylo smooch in front of Broom Boy who will be grossed out because smooching is icky to little kids? Will the smooch happen in a shared dream at the beginning of the movie which will freak Kylo and Rey out but then later they'll smooch for reals and they'll be all, "man I don't know what I was so worried about in that dream. That smooch was great!" When will the smooch happen!?!?!?!? Laugh if you want but something like this could happen. Smooch Wars!
     
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  18. M70ko

    M70ko Jedi Padawan star 1

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    Jan 25, 2018
    I vote for this one! It could have been the vision she had and now is tormenting both of them :')
     
  19. oncafar

    oncafar Force Ghost star 6

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    Jan 10, 2017
    As much as I am fascinated by Rey and Kylo, and especially redeemed Ben, I don't want any kissing. It's like with Jyn and Cassian in the elevator and how it was perfect the way it was and a kiss would have totally ruined it.
     
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  20. Dragon Jedi

    Dragon Jedi Jedi Knight star 3

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    Jan 2, 2018
    Well, the whole thing JJ Abrams and R Johnson have been hammering about is finding the balance in more than one sense so at some point they'll stop hunting one another and find themselves in the middle. My bet is on Ahch-To (=neutral "holy" ground).

    Quite extraordinary isn't it? But that's why she's the hero and we are not. She is able to see beyond the surface and the façade of Kylo Ren and discovered Ben Solo. She is forgiving in almost a religious way, ready to accept the faults and mistakes of the others. She is also a well developed archetype who serves as a moral compass and model for the kids who go to the cinema.
    Although I must say children have the ability to "overlook" the darkest deeds when they feel something like sadness and despair along the way. I remember seeing the TFA DVD with my nephew who was 6 at the time and he wasn't shocked (as much as I was) when Kylo Ren killed Han Solo, but because he looked "sooooo sad!". Amazing.

    Not sure I understand you correctly here. If you say that Kylo wants two things: Rey and let the past die, I agree. If you say that he wants to Rey AND the past both dead, I don't. He said that he would kill her, yes, but he did not mean it in the least. He had the chance during the last Force Bond to at least show her his intent, his anger, his hate. He searched her eyes instead and bowed his head in shame.

    Hey, don't forget Uncle Luke blew up the hut before it got too hot inside there! I'm pretty sure he acted as the oldest birth control of the world.
    Besides: They still need to shed more light on Rey's birth which is suspiciously similar to Anakin's Virgin birth: a child created by the Force itself to balance the raising darkness. There would be hell to explain.
     
  21. Dragon Jedi

    Dragon Jedi Jedi Knight star 3

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    Jan 2, 2018
    Why?
    Why are people so afraid of kissing?
     
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  22. Birkendoc

    Birkendoc Chosen One star 4

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    Sep 20, 2001
    It all depends on the delivery. It could be a predictable trope or it could be something transformative and mean everything.

    If it happens, I don’t want twee. As much as I love Finn/Rose, I hated the kiss. It was a predictable kiss complete with the loss of consciousness.

    But with Kylo and Rey, they have both lived a lot of their lives devoid of kindness, compassion and affection. When it comes to nurturing touch, the only Kylo has had from another person occurred nearly a decade before his father caressed his face. For Rey, a child of abandonment at such a young age, she likely had none in Jakku.

    Yet Rey craves that human contact—she’s quick to hug her friends but Kylo appears afraid of it as evidenced by not only his hesitation to reach out to Rey in the hand touching force bond scene but also how when his father confronted him on the bridge in TFA. His initial reaction was to shrink away and take a step back from his father.

    I guess those can be some of the attachment issues that come from some with a history of neglect from her parents (Rey) and repeated abuse from Snoke (Kylo.)

    That is why the hand touch—and I’m not even talking about RJ’s metaphorical sex here—is so important. It was a healing touch for two deeply wounded characters who have spent their lives so alone.

    For me a kiss could be a powerful symbol, a promise to the other that is not alone moving forward. If the hand was a foretaste of what it could be with someone in your corner and by your side (each had a vision of the other standing beside them in the futures), then a kiss could symbolize the fulfillment of that vision for both.

    So how could that play out? One example is what @vaderito referenced: the kiss of life—one has sacrificed their life for the other, and that kiss coupled with the Force is part of reclaiming one from a death/near death.

    Another scenario would be an ending with Kylo going/being sent into exile. It doesn’t matter if it’s self-imposed, Republic mandated or Rey placing him there. A kiss in this situation is a promise that exile isn’t a journey where he is cast off entirely. That was a factor in his fall—he felt as if his family had abandoned him. Isolation was a huge incredient in his downfall, so exile in isolation would not be a good predictor of atonement and reconciliation.

    A kiss in this type of ending doesn’t mean 2 kids, a house with a white picket fence, 2 kids, a cat, a dog and a parakeet. Rather it is a promise and a foreshadowing that neither he nor she has to move forward alone. Again it is a promise and fulfillment of their visions of standing side by side and bring together. It’s a glimmer of hope that they are affirming not just companionship but the love each craves and has lacked. It means their future can be a joined path where neither feels alone any more.

    So I’m okay with a kiss, but it has to really mean something and not be just an empty kiss.
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2018
  23. oncafar

    oncafar Force Ghost star 6

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    Jan 10, 2017
    I guess I think it's too dizzying of a shift to go from the vow to destroy Rey at the end of the last movie to kissing in the next, as well. (Whiplash.) I think ending more ambiguous might be best?
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2018
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  24. milena

    milena Jedi Master star 3

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    Jan 5, 2018
    I really hope they don't end it ambiguously, it's been enough of that!
     
  25. Dragon Jedi

    Dragon Jedi Jedi Knight star 3

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    Jan 2, 2018
    The strongest the hate, the most powerful the love.
    It is amazing, just amazing to me how such overwhelming visuals, giant screen, 3Ds, clever acting cannot overrule the power of words in the end. That reminds me again why I have become a linguist.

    ...And for the records, I hope they do not f...k up their kiss in the end to make it PG as Finn and Rose's. It must be spectacular, meaningful and something to be remembered in the Guinness Book of Film Kisses or I'd rather have another hand-touch instead.
     
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