ST Rey & Kylo Ren in Episode IX

Well for one, you have a writer/director that actually received death threaths from people because of his pro-women stance and writing in the movie, second his boss is a woman who is also a staunch supporter of female empowerment in StarWars and actually did more for the representation of women in the franchise than anyone ever did. Third, she implied his writing ability and experience is irrelevant simply because of his sex.

And fourth

This (made up ? she keeps changing it to suit her argument) trope never happened in The Last Jedi and will probably never happen in this trilogy. So there is also arguing on a false assumption going on here.

 

I don't care who your wife is

You can criticize a female/male writer and his/hers work however you like, but when you take the biological sex of the writer and use it discriminately against them, its not criticism, its sexism.

 

This thread is about Kylo and Rey in episode IX, how about we stick to speculating about IX?

 

I don’t think what complete lunatics hate RJ for is necessarily at issue here, and I don’t see how that craziness is at all dispositive that Rey was well-written (or written consistantly with her character in TFA, which is the reference point).

One of the many reasons why I think Reylo was never in the cards. Stuff like “You’re nothing, but not to me” would *never* have been allowed into that script had there been any intention of depicting a romance between Rey and Kylo.

I don’t follow. Sorry.

I agree that the trope isn’t there, because I believe there was zero romance.

I happen to believe that of the criticisms of Rey/Kylo in this thread aren’t applicable because my understanding of TLJ is relatively unique on these boards. However, if one accepts the surface read of TLJ, I think the confusion and criticism re that relationship is perfectly reasonable.

 

No, criticism how authors of any gender write about gender is a field of study. It's a major part of feminist theory. Obviously depending on gender how an author views women will be colored in part by their own gender.

 

@DjTomek If anyone had said, "Rian Johnson, being a man, is incapable of writing a female character," that would be sexist, yes.

Nobody has said that. In response to your claim that, because Rey is a woman, any criticism of her decisions = misogyny, some have pointed out that she is a fictional woman created by male writers. Do you not see the distinction?

 

LOLOLOLOL.... okay. Sure. You go with that.

 

Men can write great, empowering feminist characters. But it is harder for them. And I'm saying that as a man.

 

People with good intentions can still make sexist things without even being aware of it due to how common place and baked into society those ideas are.

 

I have been guilty of this myself and I can tell you it often changes what you say and whom you say it to. Societal norms change in time the challenge may be for me to keep up? Meditation helps!

 

Men have to be more aware of the cultural and systemic issue surrounding women, and particularly women in fiction. They just have to be aware of what they are playing into. That doesn't mean they can;t have characters make bad decisions. But they should at least be aware they are portraying that.

 

This. I'm not sure that RJ or anyone intentionally borked rey's character development. I think many were so excited and anxious to write a "strong female" character, that they tricked themselves into thinking that any weakness or development would undermine her strength. The opposite was true. Obviously I'm not a telepath, i'm just going by what i see on screen vs the way they speak about the character. I really hope rey isn't written to be kylo's psychiatrist or vice versa in episode IX. Regardless of how I feel about a film maker, I don't think any of them intentionally botched the female characters. Its not unlike the jurassic world director trying to tell us that Bryce Dallas Howard's character was a symbol of female empowerment because she kept her high heels on as she sprinted around the jungle. However, thats not an excuse.

 

Ah, I go away for a while and come back to a slight mine field!? Maybe? Nah, you are all nice people!

Anyway, I stumbled across the Knights of the Old Republic Knights of the Enthral Throne game because of this video

I'm not one to play video games but is it just me or does the storylines of the three children remind you a little of mostly Kylo's storyline with the young girl? And a Smit of Reylo storyline. Aka mix, blur and rematch redo?

Just an interesting note I thought. On one of the essays that I read they compared Raven and his lover to Kylo and Rey but I don't see it that much.

Granted the helmets do look a like.

On the note of meek, I do agree that Rey isn't meek towards Kylo which she is right to do but she does find meekness by letting go of her "control the future" and not forcing the force but letting the force flow as it should. The Skywalker family never truly found that properly. Or at least learned that lesson.

 

A movie about a weak woman is not inherently sexist or anti-feminist. A movie centered on a weak woman can be just as compelling as a movie centered on a strong one. What matters is whether or not the narrative frames her weakness as a weakness. Is it presented as a good thing or a bad thing?

A story where a woman in an abusive relationship keeps going back to her abuser, thinking she can change him, can be feminist if her the abuser doesn't change. Her weakness and persistence is framed as something tragic. If the woman actually succeeds at reforming her abuser with love, then her self-destructive behavior is glorified.

It's not inherently bad that Rian showed Rey having compassion for Kylo Ren, trying to help him, and getting duped by him. What matters is what happens next. Is Rey going to keep giving him second, third, and fourth chances until he changes? Or is she going to cut him off, putting her own safety and happiness over his? The ending of TLJ strongly suggests the latter.

 

RJ showed us Kylo using information gained in a moment of bonding and trust to manipulate Rey. He did to her what Snoke told Kylo he did to Hux (and, by implication, to Kylo). That was RJ deliberately demonstrating the cycle of abuse, which is a very real, very tragic phenomenon. Kylo is absolutely a victim - RJ showed us that. He also showed Kylo, having internalized a sense of validity in the abuse he recieved, do unto the same to the unsuspecting, naive Rey, not even believing that what he was doing was wrong.

It’s not so much evil as tragically twisted, delusional, and pursuant to a severely stunted sense of morality.

Quite daring of RJ, actually, imo.

 

And a pretty classic tactic for an abuser. An abuser is always looking for a lever, a card to play.

 

Textbook, really. Especially that one line (and I’m sure RJ understood how deeply coded those words are). As made explicit by RJ describing Kylo’s actions as him trying to undermine her self-confidence so that she’d have to lean on him for identity.

That...is not subtle.

 

I think paradoxically some of the problem is that the writers were too focussed on the character's gender and their obligation to create an exemplary heroine. Combine that with Johnson being, by all accounts, a rather male-centric director whose ideas on mythology, symbolism and archetypes are apparently largely drawn from a very male-centric writer-philosopher (Robert Bly), and it's perhaps not surprising that Rey's characterisation moves towards the "noble, pure woman whose rôle is to inspire erring men to better themselves" ideal. An ideal a good many people still hold, if this thread is anything to go by.

 

There is a lot of debate about what Rey really is in the ST. There are imo really only two possibilities and I'm not really sure yet which of the two she is.
1. She is the main hero and this is her journey. She is a good hero figure who thankfully has been written with her character in mind and not to be some sexy, scantily clad badass. She is not a Mary Sue in any case as her character follows the Prodigy Archetype. She was abandoned on Jakku as a child to fend for herself (like Spartan children) so Rey at 19 is disciplined and alert and has a sense of self survival which Luke didn't have at 19 since he lived a protected life. Rey survived on wits. She can handle herself with a staff and that's how she used the saber, albeit awkwardly. She's not flawless, her flaws are internal and childish(since she is childlike although an adult). Her weakness was searching for a family, then a father figure then a hero. She finally finds what she needs(with a little help from Kylo) within herself and her own strength and agency. She can balance now the dark and light within her. She also contains compassion and has displayed selflessness. Will she be the hero who will save the 'damsel in distress'(Kylo)? Could she be the one who will help balance the galaxy, as well as those around her?
2. The other possibility is that since it seems like the ST is from her pov that she works as the catalyst for others in the story. Finn, Luke and mainly Kylo Ren. The main character is someone who faces the biggest problems, has the greatest internal conflict and the longest way to reach their personal potential and fulfillment. The truth is that since meeting Rey she offers Kylo obstacle after obstacle helping him to grow and change. Meanwhile every major moment in both movies involved Kylo. Han's death, Snoke's, Luke's, the fight with the PG, the battle on Crait, fight on Takodana. He is the reason everything is happening, Rey's awakening, Luke's exile, Han & Leia seperated. All the OT characters are begging for him to return, apologising to him, dying to save him. Snoke wanted to use him, Rey to turn him. Each trilogy is about a Skywalker struggling between light and dark. OT Luke's struggle and light wins. PT Anakin's struggle and dark wins. ST Kylo struggles between light and dark and how to balance them. It doesn't show Rey's struggle because it's not her story. She will just help in saving the Skywalker legacy.

 

No, not the anti Reylo views, the views of Rey as only a prize if they do form some kind of relationship.