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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

ST Rey & Kylo Ren in Episode IX

Discussion in 'Sequel Trilogy' started by Sforza, Dec 13, 2017.

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  1. Strongbow

    Strongbow Force Ghost star 5

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    Nov 6, 2014
    That actually brings up an interesting point. In Star Wars "point of view" does matter, and it is referenced a lot. But something that is also emphasized is that point of view does not eliminate responsibility for one's choices. Point of view cannot be used as an excuse.
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2018
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  2. JoJoPenelli

    JoJoPenelli Chosen One star 6

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    Aug 14, 2000
    Very much agreed.

    Sounds like stuff Pablo Hidalgo has pointed out on Twitter.

    TLJ flirts a bit with the idea of moral relativism, or at least the idea - as Daisy mentioned in an EW interview, that “bad people can do good things” and vice versa. But at the end of the movie, Kylo - though sympathetic, is the Villain and Luke turns out to be Space Jesus.

    I don’t think Kylo will end the ST as a villain. But I don’t think he’s supposed to be “morally grey” - I think his actions are depicted as evil and his character villainous...BUT he’s also tragic and someone to be pitied and someone who still has a chance of becoming a decent person again.
     
  3. Blastaar

    Blastaar Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Dec 25, 2015
    This. Rey shouldn't have fallen for the trick in the first place. I also do not see kylo ren as a 'victim' in any sense of the word.
     
  4. JoJoPenelli

    JoJoPenelli Chosen One star 6

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    Aug 14, 2000
    TBF, Rey is naive, but so was Luke, and the movies have been bashing us over the head with the parallels,

    And Kylo *was* a victim of Snoke. But that doesn’t justify his villainy at all.
     
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  5. La Calavera

    La Calavera Force Ghost star 4

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    Sep 2, 2015
    Kylo being a victim of Snoke… oh look, there is Hux, who is abused by Snoke on a regular basis and has a far more tragic backstory.

    [​IMG]
     
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  6. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    Yeah, I feel a lot sorrier for Hux than Kylo, and I don’t really feel that sorry for Hux.
     
  7. Blastaar

    Blastaar Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Dec 25, 2015
    There are stories where the main hero is a "prodigy type", but they are still shown to struggle to over come their weaknesses. If not a physical weakness, then a character one. Rey has neither, which is why more people, after viewing TLJ, have come around to labeling her as a (nope) type. Ironically, kylo ren was intro'd as a prodigy type, but with obvious short comings in his character. He has yet to over come or even progress them in any direction. He's not more composed in his evilness. He's not remorseful of his evilness. Who knows what they can do with one film left.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 24, 2018
  8. Strongbow

    Strongbow Force Ghost star 5

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    Nov 6, 2014
    Maybe.... but Rey's actions in the third act undermine that view. She refuses the role of Kylo's muse, to her credit.
     
  9. ChildOfWinds

    ChildOfWinds Chosen One star 6

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    Apr 7, 2001
    @leia solo 67 , how can rey help “ save the skywalker legacy”? What’s left to save? Luke is dead, and he didn’t train a single Jedi successfully. Leia may soon be dead because of Carrie fisher’s unfortunate passing. Unfortunately, there are no good skywalkers left. The only new generation skywalker is Kylo Ren, and he is the villain. He has already caused much death and destruction in the galaxy; much like his grandfather. There can be no true happy ending for him. He has committed too many crimes, and he is now pretty much the evil emperor. Even if he eventually comes to his senses and decides that he has been horribly wrong for many years and stops doing evil deeds, that doesn’t wipe the slate clean. That doesn’t change the fact that he is responsible directly and indirectly for countless deaths. Those dead can’t be brought back to life. He needs to pay for his crimes, and I believe that anything less than death or spending the rest of his life in prison is too lenient. He does not deserve a happily ever after while those he killed have no life at all.

    And yes, he’s the last skywalker, but that doesn’t matter. He shouldn’t get special treatment because of his lineage.
     
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  10. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    I missed the part about Rey “saving the Skywalker legacy.”

    No. Just no. Nothing like promoting the first female Jedi protagonist and making her subservient.
     
  11. JoJoPenelli

    JoJoPenelli Chosen One star 6

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    Aug 14, 2000
    Not if the legacy is hers by right ;)

    “That lightsaber was Luke’s, and his father’s before him, and now it calls to you [completely unrelated girl who somehow looks and acts just like him due to some bizarre coincidence]!”
     
  12. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    If your theory ends up being true I can rethink my opinion, but that was not the context of “saving the Skywalker legacy” that was being referenced in the previous post.
     
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  13. JoJoPenelli

    JoJoPenelli Chosen One star 6

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    Aug 14, 2000
    Agree completely.

    Rey’s journey has the significance of Luke’s and Anakin’s. I’ve seen an increasing number of arguments trying to frame Kylo as the true successor to Luke and Anakin.

    Nope nope nope.
     
  14. NOTJEDIMATERIAL

    NOTJEDIMATERIAL Jedi Knight star 3

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    May 3, 2018

    Right on, that job is Rey's which is good in many ways, and I do believe they will get Daisy to reprise the role some time down the road to extend that story.
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2018
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  15. sls062286

    sls062286 Jedi Master star 4

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    May 10, 2016
    Yeah, even if Kylo is redeemed hes pretty much forfeited any right to the Skywalker legacy. He certainly won't be training any new Jedi. I can see him attempt to help the galaxy recover from Snoke in some way though as a way to honor his mother or maybe as a rouge travelling the galaxy helping people as a way to show hes got a bit of his fathers spirit in him.
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2018
  16. JoJoPenelli

    JoJoPenelli Chosen One star 6

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    Aug 14, 2000
    And, uh, they didn’t hand Rey the saber/crystal and Falcon just so she can keep them safe for Kylo when he’s redeemed. The idea is absurd [face_rofl]
     
  17. leia solo 67

    leia solo 67 Jedi Padawan star 1

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    Apr 1, 2018
    I see that most want to believe Rey is the protagonist of the story, a type of Anakin 'reincarnated'. What then do you believe will be the culmination of her arc? What will she suceed in doing? I'd like some of your thoughts on this as it confuses me and I think her killing/exiling the villain and bringing down the FO would be too simplistic and a letdown.
    I still have doubts about Kylo not being the legacy character and having a sad ending as then everyone's sacrifices(OT) would have been in vain. A tragic ending for the Skywalker clan.
     
  18. leia solo 67

    leia solo 67 Jedi Padawan star 1

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    Apr 1, 2018
     
  19. JoJoPenelli

    JoJoPenelli Chosen One star 6

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    Aug 14, 2000
    It’s not that we want to believe. She is. If it isn’t already clear to you from screentime, movie focus, marketing, and the literal statements of TPTB, then I’m not sure what your own definition of “protagonist” is.

    She isn’t the reincarnation of a male protagonist - she’s the protagonist of the ST and, in the context of the Saga, co-equal with Luke and Anakin.

    I think she’ll bring back the Jedi as they were always meant to be, which knowledge Luke discovered in his travels. To be poetic - Anakin the Destroyer, Luke the Creator, Rey the Preserver.

    Kylo is *a* Legacy character - Han and Leia’s daughter, Anakin’s grandchild. It seems like he’s almost co-equal to Rey in importance in the ST, but the ST’s arc focuses primarily on Rey,

    If you think that the protag/main character of a Saga trilogy MUST be a Skywalker, then the conclusion shouldn’t be that Rey simply can’t be said protag/main character despite all evidence to the contrary :p

    I think Kylo will be redeemed and either did or go into exile to begin to heal. I don’t know if TPTB have the same concerns about xyz outcomes being a rehash/boring/etc as you do =\
     
  20. Akane

    Akane Jedi Knight star 1

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    Jan 20, 2018
    I think she's going to start a new Jedi order or at least that should be her final goal.
     
  21. JoJoPenelli

    JoJoPenelli Chosen One star 6

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    Aug 14, 2000
    No, it’s absurd to Disney too. What a horribly sexist thing to do to the first female SW protag. Not happening.
     
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  22. sls062286

    sls062286 Jedi Master star 4

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    May 10, 2016
    KK called Rey the Luke Skywalker of this trilogy i.e. the protagonist. There is no wanting to believe she is, its just a fact.
     
  23. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    @JoJoPenelli : Agreed. Rey’s primary purpose being the redeemer/inspiration for Kylo and keeping the Falcon and saber safe for the overly entitled and “deserving” Kylo would be so sexist that it would make “Someday My Prince Will Come” look like a feminist anthem.
     
  24. leia solo 67

    leia solo 67 Jedi Padawan star 1

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    Apr 1, 2018
    Rey seems though in TLJ to have been sidelined, as in the 4th act(yes TLJ has 4 acts) she has no role to play except at the end. The climax is between the resistance and FO, between the master and his fallen apprentice. Her arc however ended on the Supremacy when she accepted that Kylo was not ready to turn.She then disappeared for about 20 min. Something that never happened to Luke or Anakin in the middle sequels. She is also off screen as the other subplots develop(Finn and Poe's). These sublots do not interrelate to Rey's story. She doesn't influence anyone's choices(Luke, Kylo).
    The emotional investment of the audience is in the Skywalker family, Han, Leia, Luke, Kylo. Rey is often an adjunct character like Kenobi was. She may be the one who will bring down the last Skywalker but that still does not make it her story. What is her emotional arc in 9? She already had her ROTJ moment on the Supremacy. So she forms a new Jedi order(i doubt that as she is barely yet a Jedi) or topples the FO. Ok but what is the internal conflict she will overcome?
    Marketing meanwhile can not be relied upon as it constantly misleads. Sure Rey will be used to attract audiences.
     
  25. sls062286

    sls062286 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 10, 2016
    I dont get your point. With the way TLJ ended,it takes a bit of guess work and head canon to have any idea what the arcs for any of the characters will be. Rey still has a lot to learn about being a Jedi though, that much is clear. Also, no one is talking about marketing. We are talking about the people making the movies. Theyve been wishy washy on a lot, but the idea of Rey being the protagonist is one thing theyve been very clear on. And thats without all the parallels to Luke and Anakin that scream "NEW PROTAGONIST!". Its not a debate, like at all. Unless you choose to just ignore facts.
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2018
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