ST Rey & Kylo Ren in Episode IX

Oh not TFA! No it was TLJ where we see his Solo heart the most. Snoke even says so himself. Kylo tried to save Leia, he was not lying with anything he told Rey. He wanted her by his side, he wanted Snoke dead the moment he had someone who cared about him, and Han's death nearly destroyed him. TFA before his bond with Rey, before the evil deed by killing Han, he was more focused and heading in the right direction as a villain. Losing his family and Rey has changed everything.

 

That, combined with the cut sympathetic Kylo scenes, indicates to me that Kylo is still intended to be quite divisive at this point. They are not making an effort to get *everyone* to root for him, but they are imo quietly foreshadowing that *ultimately* that’s the goal.

 

Yeah I think you're right. I also think him being redeemed was looking too obvious. I bet you anything IX will have us waiting until the final moments of the movie to truly find out what Kylo's fate with Rey will be.

 

All stories need a sense of antagonism so they're kind of trying to have it both ways at the moment while still leaving him more firmly in the villain role. They need him there until new villains push him out and become the big bads of IX with us wanting to see him and Rey join forces to stop them.

 

For me, I'm not sure his psychopathic non-reaction to murdering Han could have demonstrated less heart.

Snoke saying something does zero to "show" Kylo's alleged heart.

When did he try to save Leia? Hint: hesitating to shoot =/= trying to save.

Where did the movie show Han's death nearly destroying him? Obviously once again I don't mean when did Snoke say that, because yeah I remember the movie attempting to tell me something I didn't remotely buy in Kylo's behavior when Han's death came up. Kylo didn't "lose" his family. He's responsible for destroying his family, for killing every last one of them. They would all be alive but for his choices and his evil.

You brought up the idea that Kylo following policy to exterminate a village is somehow demonstrative of him being opposed to cruelty. I think it's worth noting that besides the fact that I don't buy that because it's not in the movie, it's also not at all exculpatory under modern western values. That was literally the Nazi defense at Nuremburg. They said they weren't responsible for cruelty because they didn't craft the orders or the policy or whatever. People don't buy that. It's not an excuse for mass murder. Disney isn't going to go there to try and sell Kylo as a hero or an anti-hero or anything of the sort.

 

In the novel he was about to use the Force to save Leia, but in a split second of emotion overwhelming him, he was too late. The movie tries to show that based on Driver's expression.

As for the other stuff, it's all in the movie, but if you don't want to see it, you won't see it.

 

Ah gotcha. So it didn't happen to me. The movie didn't show him trying to save her. The movie showed him angsty as always hesitating, and then he never reacted to watching her "die."

If you can't point to anything besides Snoke saying something, it's obviously not in the movie.

 

What I mean is, the subtle stuff has to be looked for, searched for by someone who wants to see the deeper stuff about Kylo. It's in actions, expressions and gestures, but people not a fan of Kylo will not see that stuff or bother to look for it. I can list everything, but most will tell me I am seeing what I want to see. It's just a vicious cycle until IX blatantly shows us the facts.

 

It's a thin line between subtle and seeing what you want to see. It's either in the narrative or it's not. Obviously Kylo is going to be redeemed (unfortunately to me) but that doesn't mean these movies have actually shown any genuine heart on his part. Kylo looking angsty but not actually doing anything is beyond subtle. It's actions that define a person, not their whiny thoughts.

 

I rest my case.

 

There's no getting around his earlier actions obviously. Just as there wasn't with the decades of evil Vader had under his belt. Or the decades of evil under Yondu's belt before his redemption. Same with Black Widow before her redemption. Same with Venom when he becomes an anti-hero later.

The key a redemptive arc that can't fall back exclusively on a sympathetic backstory is just spending more time showing the former villain now using their abilities for good and that's now the best path forward for them with Ben Solo. Though I still think they'll try to make his backstory slightly more tragic regardless within the EU over time with Snoke's manipulations being the main thing.

But most of his feel-face-turn will occur from the enemy of the enemy becoming the friend and growing from that and him realizing he can do good and that it feels good. You can't change what Ben Solo has already done. You can only show him helping more and tap into the fun many had when they saw him and Rey fighting together. What they want basically is for the audience to like him enough in time, and have a guilty pleasure of seeing him help the heroes, to such an extent that many are willing to accept what happened before was Kylo Ren and that this new guy, Ben Solo, is different and more worthy of life if he continues to atone and help others out.

 

That's where I think Finn will step in. Not only does John seem to adore Kylo and hopes for a Kylo redemption, but he wants to work with Adam again. I'd love for him to give a speech as he frees the troopers and the words reach Kylo and he helps him free them and they escape with Rey flying them out on the MF.

 

Black Widow didn't kill her brother, and she didn't poo poo his death like it was nothing. People like to see characters moved by the people they love. Patricide followed by hand-waving the patricide away is not sympathetic. Being obsessed with murdering one's own uncle is not sympathetic. Hesitating to commit matricide and then witnessing mom's death and having that impact zero of a character's actions after is not sympathetic.

Edit ~ oops I confused Black Widow with Scarlet Witch? I'm pretty bad with Marvel lore lol. I don't even know why Black Widow needed redemption.

 

Personally? I see it, but it’s subtle.

The relevant point - as I see it - is whether or not Kylo has been depicted in the movies (as most people will only see the viewers) in a way that signals an intent that the vast majority of the audience (including the target audience - 12-year-olds) should see Kylo as sympathetic.

Look at just about any kids’ movie with a villain on a redemption arc and/or the “enemies-to-lovers” trope. Personally, I’m evaluating the overall depiction of Kylo based off of my understanding of the use of relevant tropes in this genre, medium, format, and made for this age group.

 

That's why I'm saying it can't be largely about sympathy because there won't be much there. They have a lot of heavy lifting to do if they want to pull this off for the people who haven't already decided they don't want to enjoy episode IX. His turn has to be more about the corruptive nature of the dark side of the force and the difference between Kylo Ren and Ben Solo and the sheer fun of seeing Ben Solo helping others with power, and the sympathy the audience has for the OT3 and what they wanted for Ben, along with Ben Solo making it clear that he wants to work the rest of his life to be better for the memory of his parents and his regrets around them.

It won't work for everyone. Not all redemptive arcs do. But for it to work for some I think that's the only path forward at this point.

 

Kids really love Kylo and want him redeemed. Since Disney now holds the SW's name, kids who watch it these days are Disney fans, so they expect the heroine to save the dark Prince and they live happily ever after. I remember watching trailer reactions by kids on YouTube. Many were so excited when he offered Rey his hand. They were all "Kylo is good now" and squealing in delight. I hope JJ understands that. A few years ago Disney even had a thing where you could try to redeem Kylo.

 

Well that's true. If they redeem Kylo without pretending that he's sympathetic to "everyone" as RJ believed, maybe it will be less annoying than it seems like it would be right now. I definitely in no way identify the phrase "sheer fun" with Kylo Ren though. The movies have also in no way depicted Ben Solo, so there is no way to discern the difference between the two. We have one character that wants to be Kylo Ren, not Ben Solo. But if they aren't going the wooby way, that means our protagonist can not be preaching any kind of wooby gospel where he is concerned.

What on earth is your data for this? I'm around a lot of kids and I see exactly zero real world evidence for Kylo being some beloved character that kids the world over are desperately hoping is saved. Kylo is viewed as the villain by kids, not some pathetic victim in need of a trip to heaven.

 

Speaking as a fan of SW going into the theater and watching TLJ, the scene that is forever engraved in my mind is seeing a lightside and darkside user teaming up and becoming more powerful together than separate. I had always wanted to see Luke and Vader take down Palpatine, but they went another way. Sadly Kylo opened his big mouth and ruined it after that, so to see him using a blue or green saber in IX, aiding in an evacuation of people or donning a rebel outfit and flying with Poe and Rey into a space battle to defeat the FO would be a dream for me. Rey and Kylo together as one is epic, beautiful and powerful. Against each other, it's simply tragic.

@anakinfansince1983 most of the GA are like that. Lord knows we need more movies with hope and happy endings these days too.

 

The goal, and Driver's absolutely capable of this because he can be charming in other roles, would be almost like ROTS in reverse in a way with him becoming more charming and likeable and less like Kylo Ren as episode IX moves on as he's ousted from the FO and working alongside Rey and the others as an uneasy ally at first. Initially, he'd still seem sort of like Kylo Ren but as he works with them and helps people more we'd perhaps start to see some things we'd never seen in Kylo Ren. We'd see more smiles. We'd see some humor. We'd see less rage and tantrums and more patience.

All of that would be really cool to see in Adam's performance and so it would be almost like the reverse of the PT in that way where he's at his worst for 2.3 films (He'll likely start even still at the start of IX and then be ousted by the first third of the film) and then ends closer to him at his best and where he'll be later for the next decade or two of comics, EU materials and possibly even episode X-XII someday.

We've only seen tiny glimpses of Ben Solo coming out now and then early on here like in the moment he refused to shoot on the bridge because he knew Leia was there and the moment where he took off his glove to comfort Rey and tell her she wasn't alone. These are very small moments that give tiny hints of what he might have been like without the Dark Side but for IX we'd need to see those ramped up as dramatically as Anakin's dark side ramped up. Only in reverse.

They need to show us how he looks as a possible hero/anti-hero helping people we like and make us enjoy that the same way the Praeteorian guard scene gave us a taste of that so that it becomes a guilty pleasure for more people the same way that was for some already. That's the only way to do it now. It has to be an enemy of my enemy is my friend situations and if they're start they'll have the returning K o R big bad be the one who kills Leia so that more of our anger gets transferred toward that.

 

I don't really think traditional fairy tales tell stories of psychopaths reforming and marrying the princess. Maybe there are Grimm tales like that, I'm not sure. I'm not an expert. The closest any fairy tale comes that I'm aware of is BatB, but the Beast is a very, very far cry from Kylo Ren.

 

I love this. That would be great! Many want to see Han in Ben, and a wink, a snarky comment or him even piloting the MF would be wonderful to see! Ben was a sweet child and yes, we see that sweet side when Rey is crying. He was awkward (Driver even asked Rian if Ben had ever kissed a girl before, so he could play that scene as an experienced/inexperienced Ben). I think Rey really brought out the Ben that Han and Leia thought was gone. I think Luke saw that. That's why he told Leia no one is ever really gone. I think Luke saw something when he opened himself up to the Force again and that's why he confronted Kylo and let him release everything he had pent up inside of him for years against Luke.