ST Rey & Kylo Ren in Episode IX

But...both of these are canon romances. I'm a bit confused by what you mean. Would you mind explaining?

I'm just referencing the fact that Han practically forces Leia to kiss him after making many unwanted advances toward her in TESB. Anakin stalks Padme and makes creepy advances toward her, while also being emotionally possessive and using her as his motivation for genocide. Also, he nearly chokes her to death.

I mean, I don't have a problem with anyone who ships pairings that are not my cup of tea. A lighthearted shipping debate is my jam. As we say in geek culture, "Ship and let ship." Personally, I just want to understand the appeal just in case it actually becomes canon.

 

I suspect in 1980 Han’s behavior was considered appropriate. As for AotC, I’m not even sure GL understood that Anakin was actually pretty creepy in that movie.
And neither narrative, nor TPTB, at the time, saw anything wrong with those depictions. (Although Anakin choking Padme was kinda the end of that relationship, wasn’t it? Way past the point of no return.)

Vs “torture” and “potentially abusive” (the latter re a romantic context) characterizations from TPTB re Rey/Kylo.

I have zero problem with what fans choose to ship. None of my business. Doesn’t change my opinion of Reylo shippers as people. Don’t think they engage in such relationships irl. Etc etc etc.


But I’m not talking about Reylo as a ship - I’m debating whether or not Reylo could become canon

 

That would be an interesting idea if the dark side was not a natural part of the order of things, given that that is a more Western idea than Eastern idea. Have to wonder how that would fit with balancing the Force if that's the case.

 

One of the LoLS has an ancient Force-connected character note that there is “a rot in the Mist” (what they call the Force).

I personally think the balance will require purging that rot. The duality Rey and Kylo represent is a conflict that needs to be resolved; there is no compromise with Space Naziism. Not through killing Kylo, but by drawing him back to the light and imo “purifying” him somehow.

The Tao-like yin-yang balance principles are something I believe relates to Rey, specifically, and will be brought up explicitly in 9.

 

My view has always been ship and let ship, which is why I don't go into threads of ships I don't particularly care about because I have no interest in discussing them. I don't need to understand other people's view on the ships they like. People like what they like, and they're free to enjoy what they enjoy. I have no need to make them justify why they like what they like, because it should be their right to enjoy things even if I don't enjoy it. It's fiction, a fantasy space opera, after all.

 

Definitely.

I think in this case it’s unusual in that the ship being canon or not fundamentally changes what the story is. (Same with who Rey’s parents are.) When it comes to spec, it’s not a side issue.

The debate fascinates me because therr are so many thoughtful, literate, and intelligent fans on the other side, and because, in a way, I think I process these stories similarly. There are a few podcasts hosted by Reylos I listen to and really enjoy, even though I disagree re the canonical status of Reylo specifically.

 

The whole thing is a remix.

The ST is trying to be Star Wars greatest hits and covering all of the main beats in one single new trilogy for new audiences.

This is why Ben Solo is younger and shown to have more conflict because they want the best of Anakin in the prequel trilogy. Opposite this grandson of Vader, I believe, is that they're hoping to mix Padme and Kenobi into one character as the grandaughter of Kenobi. She is both the object of desire for this Anakin the way Padme was but she's also fighting alongside this Anakin as Kenobi did and against him. In fact, when this trilogy ends we may learn that in all 3 trilogies a Kenobi and Skywalker fought with and against the other.

Her initial denial and desire to believe Ben over Luke is like when Padme called Obi-Wan a liar. Her desire to get to the truth about the temple massacre and pushing for what really happened is Kenobi. Her belief to go to this Anakin and tell him she'll help him is Padme.

On Dagobah a Kenobi tells Luke to not fight yet. On Ahch-To I believe it's a Kenobi telling Luke to come and fight. Luke doesn't listen to either Kenobi in V or VIII and Rey says, just as her grandfather did "He's our last hope." Obi-Wan Kenobi felt Luke was the key. Rey Kenobi feels Ben Solo is.

From here things play out like a mixture of Revenge of the Sith and Return of the Jedi's throne room scene. A mashup because fate has changed the dynamics. In ROTJ Anakin tells Luke earlier he must obey his master but in Episode VIII this saga's Anakin is planning to kill his boss the whole time so that he can be with Rey which is closer to when Anakin tells Padme, "I'm more powerful than the Chouncellor. I can overthrow him and together you and I can rule the galaxy." That's what Ben Solo wants. He sees Rey as his Padme in that situation and he wants to kill his boss so that they two of them can rule together.

Then things switch back to the OT and the dynamic is obviously very close to Vader and Luke but instead of this Sidious zapping Luke and forcing this Anakin to act this Sidious reveals that he has no interest in turning Rey at all and that he did this for his final lesson. He doesn't see Rey as someone who'll turn. He knows she's this saga's Kenobi and will never turn and doesn't have enough darkness to be turned. This also makes it different than Luke and Vader. Rey doesn't represent the replacement or the family line. She represents the potential ally/friend/lover to Ben Solo. Snoke knows this and wants Ben to kill this saga's Padme/Kenobi because doing so will move him to the Dark side further. But he won't... He kills his boss instead.

They join forces and kill a Dark Sider's guards together (Something Vader and Luke never did)


The force battle over the saber reminds more of this moment than anything Luke and Vader did.



Rey ends up leaving him incapacitated but alive and can't let the saber go.

 

The whole Reylo thing is taking flight it seems as time marches on. Young audience members seem solidly behind it and more people suspect that is the way for things to go.

 

Still, regardless of shipping (because obviously shippers are drawn to a thread dedicated to Kylo and Rey's connection, that's a no brainer and they should be allowed to be here just as much as anyone else) no one has to justify why they like them.

 

If Rey's parents were nobodies then she is not a Kenobi. Or a Skywalker for that matter.

@NOTJEDIMATERIAL what is the basis of your statement that Reylos are young? Or are you just making an assumption?

 

I don't mind the Rey Random. It makes the most sense to me, storywise, but I know other fans thinks differently and that's perfectly ok.

 

So long as you aren't disrespectful or breaking the terms of service you are absolutely right that you're just as entitled to talk about how you hope these two work it out if you want to as someone else is to say that they hope they don't. The thread is not for Reylo fans exclusively or for anti-Reylo folks exclusively from what I can tell. It's not exclusively for people who like their escapist fiction to be things they'd never do or support in real life. It's not for people exclusively who want their fiction to represent their respective social commentary beliefs. It's for both of those groups and everyone else so long as the discussion is civil.

No one has to read or reply to anyone who presents it as awful escapism, or who wants to focus exclusively on the moral high ground of the dynamic. No one has to read or reply to anyone who states that their escapist tastes are what they are and that they don't view fiction and real life the same way and feel like fiction should be free to go dark and strange places.

@RiddleMeThis , the junkers could have easily found her in a ship wreck as a child and raised her.

 

I am involved with many young people in both my business and in coaching. I spent the winter discussing TLJ with some of them and the idea of Reylo was popular with the youngins then and even more so now. I know adults are also seeing it happening but my main point is that would work for many young people especially going forward.

 

I think Rey had a memory re junkers and her greatest fear was that they were her parents.

As PH pointed out, this would mirror Rey seeing Kylo’s greatest fear.

 

I feel like stories should have the opportunity to go into dark places, but the story should make it clear what the target audience is and what lesson the writer is trying to teach. Fifty Shades of Grey and Twilight lack self-awareness for the stories that they're telling, which is why many people consider them to be terrible and toxic. Both of the protagonists in those stories never really acknowledge the ridiculousness of the relationships that they're in. Kylo Ren and Rey have an interesting dynamic, but having an actual romance between them would sacrifice the verisimilitude of the story. At least for me.

I'm curious. Was it the moment itself or just the direction of Anakin's character that you didn't like that soured the movie for you?

To be fair, I think that's a bit of an oversimplification. Star Wars has pretty much always been a franchise that references itself all of the time. YouTube movie critic Chris Stuckmann actually did a pretty great video about it.

 

Have you read/watched 50 Shades or Twilight?

 

I never mentioned anything in my posts about not being allowed to disagree, but anyhow...

Yeah, I never understood the 50 Shades and/or Twilight argument either.

 

I can’t comment on Fifty Shades, but I read the Twilight series through. Three times, plus once on audiobook.

Imo it’s relevant in that it’s very much a self-insert story, aimed to allow the (presumed straight female) reader to imagine herself as the protagonist being romanced by a brooding, dangerous, yet gentlemanly and “wouldn't hurt a fly” heartthrob. This self-insert fantasy is aided by keeping the heroine pretty “plain vanilla” and relatively “blank slate,” though still identifiable as a character. While Bella is nominally the protagonist, the story revolves primarily around Edward and his family and how Bella relates to him and them.

So yes...from how I’ve seen Reylo discussed *by Reylos,* Twilight sounds like a fair comparison. I think the problem is that the analogy is rarely explained and often used to simply mean “bad.”

 

I've read many excerpts of the novels but I have watched almost all of the films. I've seen all of the Twilight movies and they are hilarious and wonderful in their badness. I saw the first 50 Shades film and parts of the sequels and they're, um...pretty awful. They're great eye-candy because of how gorgeous all of the actors are and the cinematography is very well-done. Even in the first film, there are shades of a better movie, but overall it's just a story about two people who are genuinely insane and toxic disguised as an erotic love story.

Now the Sequel Trilogy is a far better story than either of those, but the argument is that Kylo Ren and Rey getting together would be a tone-deaf way of writing a female character and therefore would put her on the level of female protagonists like Bella Swan and Anastasia Steele (man, those names are terrible) from 50 Shades and Twilight. I heavily disagree with this. The Rey in TFA and even TLJ runs circles around them. She at least has an actual personality, flaws and a character arc that affects the plot as well as a backstory and people she cares about.

 

Despite how things ended the Reylo ship is more popular and talked about than at any time prior. There are popular video hosts talking about it now.

The complication in Empire left a genocidal father cutting off the hand of his son who then tried to commit suicide rather than join him. Contrast that with the happy end of ROTJ and it’s a good reminder of how much can change in a movie.

Trilogies don’t end exactly as they began wines. Vader ends very differently than the setup of ANH. Vader ends very differently in ROTS from the setup of TPM.

Rey and Ben solo started as enemies. Ben started evil. He won’t stay that way the whole way through flat like that.

The complication seems to be that they are not in fact relatives and could technically get together if they could somehow make it work. They didn’t even end as badly as Luke and Vader did in TESB & have already worked together once. The arc will continue to move them further from the enemies they started as and toward allies. Ben Solo will want more but Rey will realize he’s just not good for her and the most selfless thing Ben Solo will do beyond helping will be to accept that and move on and hope she changes her mind some day. They will then tease their meet ups in other mediums now and then.

 

The popularity of a ship, to my knowledge, has no corrolation with its canon chances.

We still don’t know who Rey’s parents are.

And I’ve yet to read a cogent rebuttal to the issues I’ve pointed out re the idea of it being a canon ship.