ST Rey & Kylo Ren in Episode IX

I like the idea that Rey will defeat him utterly, in the way that matters, defeating his will so that he is forced to see how wrong he is. He's been defeated a lot, but never once did that defeat change his will (except perhaps in the beginning when Snoke first got to him).

 

I’d like to know WHY Kylo thinks he’s right. We don’t even know what his ideology is, or why.

I mean, if he were a cartoon baddie it wouldn’t matter. But if we’re supposed to care, it is.

 

TLJ showed us flashbacks and multiple accounts of what happened on the night that Ben turned. That might not be every little detail from the last 30 years, but it's the central part of the story/height of the conflict that led to the current drama, and that's what the filmmakers decided to show us. There is no mention of Rey Skywalker but that doesn't equate to us not having the whole story. It could simply mean that that particular story/version of Rey's character doesn't exist in canon and never did.

 

Maz told Rey (and us) that she isn't a Skywalker in TFA. Rey told Kylo (and us) that she isn't a Skywalker in TLJ. JJ has talked about how important it is that anybody can come from nowhere and be strong with the Force. Rian practically hit us over the head with a broom (boy) to drive that point home. They haven't been coy about it.

 

This is why I don't think we are supposed to care.

Anymore than we're supposed to care why Rey wants to risk her life to help people she's just met. There's no explanation for that either, simply because we're supposed to accept that Rey=Light and Kylo=Darkness.

 

My argument has nothing to do with Rey’s parentage.

Yes - what TLJ showed us. That’s not my point. My point is that there is more for 9 to show us.

Which...I mean, the story isn’t over yet...storylines aren’t resolved...

I don’t know if you’re trying to argue that there’s nothing more about this we will learn about in 9 but I don’t think it’s actually possible to prove that...?

ETA: @Kthru12

I felt the dialogue foreshadowing was pretty powerful.

 

Vader was dad. Luke and Vader had a literal connection that neither could ever change because it was simply a fact of their existence. Vader was pleading because the whole time he didn’t want to hurt Luke. He wanted to recruit him.

Kylo and Rey don’t have a connection beyond some silly crush. Kylo made Rey an offer. She said no. He was pissed. He didn’t plead, he stated as fact that he would destroy her. They both went for the weapon. He wasn’t going to kindly let her leave, just like Vader wouldn’t have with Luke. Luke had to escape, and so did Rey. Unlike Luke, though, Rey practically tucked Kylo in before she left.

 

From the Fry text:

But it is the sequence just before this that I find more fascinating. It delves into Snoke's motives for creating Kylo Ren and exactly how he accomplished it, which is what @RiddleMeThis hit on--he was targeted since childhood. It was always about playing Luke the fool. And it really dives into how in creating this new identity, Kylo never did manage to extinguish who he was--Ben Solo, the conflict duality of light and dark...

From Fry as well (page 222):

Very fascinating compare and contrast to Rey. And that is why together they are quite intriguing to me. She seems to be that being that Snoke had craved, a creation of dark and light, able to harness strength from both but be a slave to neither. She is balanced, Kylo is not.

So this is why I am drawn to a redemption arc where she is part of the story. No, I do not see her "saving him." He needs to save his own sorry ass if he is to be redeemed. But rather she is the example of finding balance within and not being the flawed vessel that can never be filled. She has found a way to assimilate the strengths of light and dark and not be consumed by their weaknesses. She has done so without a master.

Is her ability to tap into a balanced relationship with dark and light more in line with the prime jedi? Is being beholden to a master part of the problems with imbalance.

No, I don't see Rey saving Kylo Ren, but I see her being the indirect teacher in learning how to understand both strengths and understanding how it is possible to survive and possibly thrive when both sides of the force are better understood and welcomed into the greater whole. That type of learning and example is what draws me to the Kylo/Rey dynamic. That duality of balance/imbalance and how they are two sides of a coin, a yin and yang are what draw me to this pairing, dynamic and story.

For me, it's why each is an equal lead and counterpoint to each other in the Force part of the story. It's why Rey's story is Kylo's and Kylo's story is part of Rey's. Together they may be telling a different story about the Force, something we haven't seen before. It's why I am drawn to the completion of this story and why I am willing to let it play out

 

Strangely, I see Kylo as Rey's teacher at this point, just a non-ideal one. Rey kind of has to pick up her knowledge where she can. By watching Kylo screw it all up, it's a great example of how not to do things.

 

Rey/Kylo is both nothing we’ve seen before and everything we’ve seen before.

It’s not a compromising duality. You don’t “meet in the middle” with space fascism. It’s yin-yang, but only in some respects. I’ve read the metas that try to argue that Rey and Kylo fit that concept in more than a couple respects. They really don’t.

They are indeed playing with a non dark-light yin-yang duality - within Rey herself, and Achoo, and perhaps more we have yet to learn. Something something resolving the masculine and feminine yada yada.

 

Rey learned from Luke's failure, I believe, which is at least partly why she did not kill Ben while he was unconscious.

 

No force connection moment there means he doesn’t know. Last he heard she was on Snoke’s shuttle. Besides, his issues are mostly with the Falcon & possibly Chewie, who shot him earlier, because when he sees Rey again at the end he melts again and realizes he still wants to be with her. She’s not having any of it though.

Cue the comeback story of Ben Solo within the body of Kylo Ren. Daisy Ridley knows more than anyone.
https://hollywoodlife.com/2018/03/10/star-wars-daisy-ridley-kylo-ren-he-is-redeemable/

 

This is trying to reduce what a person is to a binary. Deeds in Star Wars can only be light or dark. However, you don't apparently count not being able to kill Leia and saving Rey from Snoke (even though he had his own motives too) as deeds either. This is what the disagreements here boil down to. Some people can ONLY see people as all good or all evil. To those who see the layers/gradations in a person, these matters have more complexity, and again, Star Wars invites this given that Anakin who had all evil deeds reemerged out of the husk that is Vader. I don't understand why the "other side" can never seem to acknowledge this.

If you know you're talking to someone who doesn't view people in these binaries, they will not be perceiving or discussing in those binaries either. It's like if someone doesn't speak English and their language is Russian, don't be surprised if everything they say is in Russian.

 

Yeah but this time Kylo wasn't innocent, he is a space fascist and has killed tons of people. She shouldn't even have considered leaving him alive at that point if she cared about the safety of her friends.

 

The Dark Side is still winning out on Anakin & Ben in these moments as Vader & Kylo Ren but Ben & Anakin are still there trying to regain control.

 

@11-4D I'm glad Rey isn't a murderer personally.

 

The novel already tells us. She still believes he will turn. She’s upset with him for now.

 

I rather think the good in Kylo has been stuffed in a locker for the time being. I detected no hemming or hawing as he ordered and directed the Crait offensive.

Remember “If you’re not with me, you’re my enemy”? Sounds awfully apropos.

 

It’s comparing killing baby Hitler to killing adult Hitler. Personally I wouldn’t be glad if someone decided to spare Hitler.

 

The difference here is that IX will feature someone even scarier than Ben Solo who hasn’t lost to Rey once (much less twice) and who’ll have 6 Dark Side users on his side.

VIII showed us Ben needing Rey to survive. IX will show Rey & the Resistance needing Ben Solo to win.

 

You seem in denial that Kylo is now the Emperor. If whatever you’re saying was actually the plan, they wouldn’t have killed Snoke. It’s redundant.

 

They had Leia to fall back on for redemption before and likely planned out a moving mother & son final arc. That was perhaps the plan from the start.

When that changed and TLJ was already in the books as many as 4 different rewrites occurred. They’re screwed on redemption now without Leia unless they go for the a new enemy for the audience to rally around as one and hate who has been jealous of Ben Solo being leader the whole time and who shows that being at the top means having a bullseye from within on the Dark Side. You’re still thinking of this exclusively as the OT with Ben Solo now as Palpatine. It won’t be. It will be an inverse of the PT to bookend the OT.

They will easily be able to setup a scarier villain than Ben. I won’t be surprised if we learn he was KO’d for most of the temple massacre & stuck in rubble.

Fisher’s death changed the end game here massively. Between having slightly less established (but just as easy to hate antagonism for the final 90 minutes of IX) and aiming for what they wanted from the start (and why they decided not to just give us the Solo twins story from the start) and paying off the setups of the OT3’s beliefs and their end game of the grandchildren of Anakin & Obi-Wan coming together in the final episode of the Skywalker saga to tie things up, and completely changing what they had in mind the whole time and ending the entire 9 part skywalker saga with the final statement that the skywalkers were a stain on the galaxy and that Han, Leia & Luke were loser idiots who fell for Ben when they shouldn’t... and that everything this saga had to say or explore already happened in the first movie... I’m pretty sure I know which direction they’ll choose here.