ST Rey & Kylo Ren in Episode IX

Again, you’re taking about Snoke. If that was the point, then why kill Snoke in the first place? Why kill Snoke and have Kylo replace him just to introduce Snoke 2 in the next movie? It’s completely pointless. You need to accept that Kylo (no, not Ben) is the main villain and big bad. Whatever happens in IX he will still have been a fascist emperor for a couple of years between the movies.

 

“Saving” Rey from Snoke is 100% nullified by:

1. He brought her to Snoke in the first place for torture, then while Snoke was distracted by her, Kylo killed Snoke and stole the throne. He directly and selfishly benefitted from the whole thing. That’s the opposite of Vader sacrificing his life with no intention of becoming Emperor to save Luke; and

2. As soon as she turned down his offer to help him murder her friends, he attacked her.

Kylo didn’t do her any favors, any more than he did his mom when he was shown to give her zero thought after she was blown out into space.

 

Kylo wasn't innocent when Leia said that she wanted him back. Kylo wasn't innocent when Rey reached out to touch his hand. Kylo wasn't innocent when Rey went to meet him on the Supremacy. Kylo wasn't innocent when Luke told Leia, "no one's ever really gone".

Seriously, having Rey murder Kylo in his unconscious state would validate what Luke almost did, which is a pretty ****ed up message to send since he was actually 100% wrong. Rey should learn from that mistake, not repeat it.

 

yes well Hitler himself had a lot of ideas about who should die. Also if you can kill baby Hitler, you could instead raise him to be someone else. Society meanwhile would probably just create another such person, though perhaps it would be softened. What happened in Nazi Germany was bigger than Hitler alone. Murder is a simple solution that occurs to people without considering other possible solutions, in most cases. If people would try harder to consider possible less lethal solutions, the world would be a better place.

 

That’s precisely my point. There’s no undoing what he did so their only path forward is getting the audience to like him by showing him doing better things. It’s their only chance of delivering what they wanted and why they saved Leia for the end.

Where’s the drama if they just make him bad? She’s beaten him twice already! You don’t just revisit the exact same thing 3 times in a row.

What is the final statement of a 9 part trilogy where the OT3 believed & Luke says “No one’s ever really gone?”

Do you really think Disney paid 4 billion dollars to say the Skywalkers were a foolish stain on the galaxy that somebody needed to put down for good and who better than the random Junker of Jakku? That’s what they bought it for? That’s what they undid the ending for ROTJ for & the 6 episodes preceding it? They could have just had TFA end with her killing him then. You think their final statement is going to be “kindness is weakness & change rarely happens so kill when you can?”

People disagreed passionately when I said they’d at a minimum tease Reylo and that they moved away from the Solo twins idea to do so at the height of the YA peak in 2012. People disagreed passionately when I said Rey wasn’t necessarily being dropped off on Jakku in the Forceback due to already being in dirty Jakku clothing. We know how those ended.

What makes more sense? Believing those who already invested in ideas that didn’t pan out & are upset at this trilogy? Or those who’ve had a few correct hits despite those theories being less popular and whose primary theories remain alive and continue to gain momentum with rumors like Kenobi returning for IX & a Kenobi stand-alone beginning shooting right after IX? Believing those who said none of this makes any sense? Or those whose theories were then supported by extended editions and director’s commentaries and Q&As?

What if part of why I’m enjoying this trilogy so far is because it’s moved where I would have moved it if I was writing it, which gives me additional insight into how it may very well end? Had Rey Solo come to fruition I would have been waaaaay off in my TFA theorizing and would have leaned more heavily on all those who did lean that way because I’d assume they were better connected to what the writers were aiming for.

 

If a greater evil Force user emerged than Kylo, that would be amusing in that his plans for absolute power would be toppled again. I'm ever so pleased when Kylo can't fulfill his evil objectives.

 

Kylo Ren is evil. But he isn't all evil. That's the point. And the good in him can win, if he at any point lets it. That's Star Wars. If you can't acknowledge that, we will never be on the same page in discussion. We might as well be speaking different languages.

 

Yes and Vader chose evil again and again and again. I've read many of the comics.

If your only point is he's been choosing evil, I agree. Still this does nothing to address the difference in our views.

 

I think an interesting thing that came out of the novelization as well in the passenger side it on page 222 was the fact that Snoke trained Kylo Ren to be unbalanced. He never learned to integrate the light or the dark but rather snow talked to the failure and not to the success . Instead of teaching the strength of either the light or the dark it appears that his master trained him how to be week instead. It is if instead of teaching them how to die if he taught him how to belly flop .

 

If he didn't kill his mom when he had the chance, or Rey when he had several chances than he is not literally choosing evil at every opportunity that has been presented to him, just most of them.

 

It is also funny that per TLJ novelization Snoke consistently is disappointed in his apprentices when he conditions them to fail. He wants them weak, and then is displeased with the results. I think he just enjoys being unhappy.

 

Vader didn’t choose evil every time. He chose his son. The perfect parallel to that is Kylo choosing evil to murder his own loving father. Vader didn’t just choose not to kill his son. He chose to affirmatively save his son. Kylo made the exact opposite choice.

I have always felt that RJ’s depiction of Kylo in TLJ misinterprets the narrative significance of that act. It was set up imo intentionally to be contrasted with Vader. Vader saved his son while Kylo gutted dad. They’re different. In this family saga, family doesn’t mean much to Kylo.

 

That’s because what brings each individual out of darkness is unique. Romantic complications brought Anakin to the Dark. Now they’ll bring Ben out.

The OT made the Force plot all about family. The ST showed someone who was convinced that same love of family held the greatness of his grandfather back. How do you bring someone back in the GFFA whose Dark Side Master prepared him to see family love as weakness? You introduce romantic love into the mix & see if that is powerful enough to motivate him to realize how empty this pursuit of power is. You deliver the inverse of the PT where romantic love brings this Skywalker out of the darkness. Especially since you no longer have Fisher to have Leia play a role in redemption.

 

this is another example of ignoring the context of Star Wars. Also did you notice my post in which I evaluated other bad guys per their fictional universe? If all you want to do is turn this into a real life lesson about particular kinds of dangerous men, you are missing the story. I am actually paying attention to the story.

I don't fear this because I read others well--their good and their bad. Though IRL I am more distrusting than not. That's what happens when you've been abused by one of your own parents. In fact for me, my dangerous weakness is the extent to which I inherently distrust others. So don't give me a lesson. I know first-hand how terrible those you should be able to trust can be to you. It has made me doubt all humans in personal relationships. And my dark side is that I will never trust anyone ever again. That's where my hate lies. That is my evil. It is a child whose father hurt her in a way he never should have. And why do I look for good? Because I still love my father.

As for relationships with men... I will never trust them. Any of them.

 

Of course not trusting people is a weakness. Consider all the ways humans hurt each other every day, all the wars, all the killing. It is a terrible weakness and people are dying because of it. People are oppressed and discriminated against because of it. It is a destructive force bringing all of us down. It's because when we are hurt we use that pain and hurt others. And that is the entire point. Every evil for someone who has a functioning conscience, is coming out of pain--a cycle of pain that manifests in destructive words and actions. It grows. It perpetuates. And people drop all empathy for others. They carry it on, and it becomes an end in itself.

So when we talk about Kylo and how much we hate him, *that* is what we are giving into.

 

What good deeds do you have in mind that Kylo could do? I'm curious.

You keep mentioning that he spared his mom but that wasn't the case by the end of the film on Crait. Also, he saved Rey for his own nefarious plans as Supreme leader.

 

I mentioned it in the context being stated that he literally made only evil choices. So even if he knew his mom was alive, which we have zero indication of, and chose to kill her on Crait that doesn't somehow negate him choosing not to kill her when he could have earlier and it was clearly not an evil choice.
ETA: And as for saving Rey, Daisy and has already stated that Kylo did not save her only for his nefarious plan but was also doing a good thing. If that was the case he would have just killed her after they defeated the guards. He never asked her to come to Snoke's ship, she showed up and he had to develop a plan on the spot, as RJ said he is not playing chess. He is not putting up an front when they are communicating through the force, he's not even being particularly nice( though I'm sure he thinks he is).

 

I dont think Kylo’s expression in the last scene was fake. I just won’t sympathize until we get a more reasonable backstory explanation.

What they’re doing with the character is highly unusual. TLJ was one big Turn in the magic trick, but it bleeped up the pacing unless 9 is split into 2 movies.

 

and you decided it's all crocodile tears. You are unwilling to believe that a plea made to "Grandfather" in private when there is no one to witness the "crocodile tears" isn't a lie. IOW, you are biased and that rules you.

this misconstrues things. To believe that Kylo Ren's feelings are not feigned =/= believing no one feigns their feelings ever. You must know that, so why make this argument?

perceive it how you like, of course. I feel like you take things very personally when it comes to sympathy regarding Kylo. My point was about hate in general and how I feel about hate. My distrust is a form of hate. And to steal from Yoda, hate leads to suffering.

an inherent automatic bias to distrust is destructive. If you want an example, just look at my posts. But yes it causes problems between peoples and nations. If people are unwilling to trust, to ever give the benefit of the doubt, they are unwilling to take the leap of faith required to form relationships. To argue that distrust doesn't lead to strife is something that seems to be disproven by real world events.

ah. So either one is distrusting or gullible. Surely these are not the only options. Always, or just about always, there is a range, a middle ground.

 

To the first bolded, yes he tried to, right after Rey refused to join him while he slaughtered her friends.

To the second, if RJ really said that, dude sure knows how to set up an impressive villain. And by that I mean, he doesn’t. We go from Sheev to... a guy that’s not playing chess. Great.