ST Rey & Kylo Ren in Episode IX

okay this comes pretty close to confirming Ben was a child when Snoke manipulated him.

How old of a child? I don't know.

 

The book implies that Ben was a normal kid.

This tells us that there was a period in Ben's life when he had a group of established friends, and a happy and normal play life. Bloodline doesn't suggest that this ended abruptly or catastrophically. We're told of Leia's awareness that Han was sad not to be training his own son as a pilot, which implies Ben left while not yet an adult. But there's no hint that everything fell to pieces.

Aftermath is the book that mentions that Leia senses dark places in her unborn son.

I think the foreshadowing is not so much about Ben, but about Leia. We're being told that Leia is monitoring for signs of Vader-ness, and will be spooked by anything at all dark in her son.

 

So tantrums/tendencies were the wrong words to use but I knew I wasn't imagining or making something up.

"Throughout the book Leia expresses concern over Ben’s fledgling capacity to potentially do bad things with his power as one of the reasons she and Han have kept his grandfather’s legacy from him, except now the secret is out to the galaxy."

From this review:
https://io9.gizmodo.com/all-the-major-star-wars-secrets-revealed-in-the-new-nov-1774819531

 

The opinion of a reviewer is your counter to actual quotes from the books themselves?

 

I remember Leia being concerned about telling present Ben in Bloodline.

If you integrate all these passages together, it suggests Ben was a normal small child. Snoke was watching even when he was a child. Snoke eventually was able to manipulate Ben's feelings of abandonment into the fits of anger and resentment that later show up. This prompted Ben's parents to send him to Luke for help, which is what Snoke wanted. That caused Luke to restart the Jedi, like Snoke wanted. Then later Snoke was actually able to get Ben to turn and he destroyed everything Luke had created. Snoke weaponized Han and Leia's son, and it seems this process began when he was still a "child."

And to top it off, when Han is reminiscing there was too much Vader in him (likely recalling his rage and resentment that would break objects or cause things to malfunction), Leia is saying, no that was Snoke. She said he was manipulating their son and turning him towards the dark even before she knew what was happening. If she were merely referring to when Ben was away with Luke, she'd be out of the picture, so to say "even before I knew it was happening" wouldn't make sense.

 

Yeah I guess I hope I'm right too. Regarding putting any of it in IX I think it depends on the role of Kylo in that film. I agree if they want Kylo to be sympathetic overall to the audience they would need to add something, but if that is not their objective, they could just leave his backstory alone.

ETA another thing about how Snoke manipulates, is just look at how he manipulated Rey. He knew by bridging her mind with Kylo's she would sense his conflict and that would bring her to him. He didn't have to communicate with her psychically. All he had to do was one thing and the rest would follow. So when it says he manipulated Ben's feelings and Leia's feelings, it can potentially be quite indirect. It allows them their choices and gets him the inevitable results he is after.

He knows what strings to pull, what conditions to set up, to get people to play right into his hands; to get them to do most of the work for him.

And that he can just bridge two people's minds from across the galaxy without them knowing, without their permission, says a lot about his capabilities.

 

Did my post with the link respond to a direct quote? No, it didn't and I only saw one direct quote from the book addressed to me specifically and had already responded to that. The reviewer's opinion was exactly what I posted- one confirmation that I alone had not entirely pulled something out of thin air as I had been accused of doing or imagining what I read.

 

Maybe that's because Snoke is hardly in the movies at all. If they wanted this to be a thing, it should have been in the movies.

I absolutely do pretty much what you say, because I have no idea what the hell you're talking about...because it's not in the movies. Snoke isn't a factor in literally any of my thoughts (I literally never think of him) because he's such an undeveloped background character. I've never "counted" things from the novelizations and I've never been one to watch deleted scenes. So, yep, I dismiss them. I don't even read them to need to dismiss them. Any time someone quotes something from the EU, I skip right over it, I don't read a single word of it, because I'm not interested. If Snoke manipulated Luke, Han and Leia, it's not in the movies at all. I don't mention Snoke because I hardly know of anything to mention. Snoke goes unnoticed because he's basically not even there.

This isn't my fault. It's LFL's fault. They've made a crappy, incomplete story.

Maybe you should find it bizarre how the actual villain at the root of this, Snoke, is hardly in the movies at all. Maybe you should find it bizarre that JJ and Co mostly erased his part in the story. I guess they just don't think Snoke is very important to the story.

When JJ or Rian cut a scene, they are literally dismissing it. Why shouldn't I?

 

Feeling sympathy for a character is completely a subjective business.
You may feel sympathy for the devil himself, if you're totally into evil characters.
You may feel sympathy for unhuman superheroes.
You may feel sympathy for the victims.
That's totally up to you.

The storytellers know it well. If they want to make a questionable character --let's call it a villain-- more sympathetic, they must provide backstories. Usually the backstory should provide a motive, a reason why the character did bad things.
Now, Ben Solo has been coded "abused victim".
And not just a random victim. If you read between the lines (I know, not everyman's favourite), the kind of abuse he's been subjected to is pretty bad.

I am a professional translator, I work with words, subtexts, said and non-said. It's my job.
What the novelisation (sorry, I need to bring this out since you're asking for more clarity) does not say, but leaves it in the air is very clear to me.
1) "Take that ridiculous thing off,” said Snoke, his voice dripping with disgust."
Shock froze Kylo momentarily.

Snoke is asking to take off a piece of garment, that we do know Kylo uses as protection. (Translation: Snoke wants him vulnerable) Kylo is shocked. He knows what's coming, and it's not the lightning, the helmet would be irrelevant.

2) Kylo stood stone-faced as Snoke approached him, willing himself to remain still as one finger stretched for his cheek, then higher.

I translate: Kylo forces himself to stay still while Snoke touches him. He doesn't like to be touched that way. He's completely at Snoke's mercy. Like a slave to his master (my choice of words is deliberate).

3) The fingertip traced Kylo’s eyelid, leaving a streak of moisture behind.

Now that's a creepy detail. In the Junior novelization (for children) it is specified that the moisture are Kylo's own tears that Snoke smears on his face. But in the adult novelization the sentence it cut there, leaving a very strong innuendo at the "moisture" (=Snoke perspiration? Wet hand?)
If you then put together what Kylo said before: “I’ve given everything I have to you—to the dark side,” Kylo said, his voice distorted by his mask. “Everything.”
Everything -- repeated twice (not in the film) an printed in Italic, that's another innuendo. That's how writing works.

What kind of innuendo? You tell me. You know what I am hinting at.
Why was it cut from the film? Not because it was not important, since it was left in both novelisations, so it was in the script given to the actors for that scene. Adults should get it, kids are given the "harmless" version.

Again, it's up to you to sympathise or not with an abused victim of that kind.
Anakin was not coded "abused victim", he was manipulated by Palpatine, but many of his choices were dictated by his own lust for power and a form of very obsessive love for his wife.
Kylo's choices were pretty much taken from him from the moment he was sent to Luke for training. I believe he was barely a teenager, but we do not really know --I base my judgement on the moment the darkness in him reached critical levels to force Leia to take action. This is where the Force "created" Rey to counterbalance. Ben was 10 years old .
He had no more saying in the matter. When he joined Snoke, he was just his slave dog of war, he did his master's bidding. But he rebeled against him and got free. His motives to take on the role of Supreme Leader were dictated by "his hatred, and his lust to dominate and humiliate those who had wronged him." (Jason Fry - The Last Jedi - Chapter 13, page 121). I translate =vengeance not lust for power.
Not nice, I agree, but it is something I can understand better that the pure lust for power Anakin/Vader had. And definitely something I can sympathize with.

 

The Force did not “create” Rey to counterbalance Kylo.

Rey was born when Ben was 10 and certainly not a Dark Sider. Force sensativity is, canonically, physiologically/biologically based in that one is born with a particular midichlorian count.

In other words, Rey was born just as strong with the Force as Ben Solo was. Her existance and power were in no way dependant on his.

“Darkness rises and light to meet it.”

Snoke was noting a corrolation, not a causation. We know this, in part, because he thought Luke was that light, and obviously Ben/Kylo is not why Luke is strong with the Force

 

There's already things here to sympathize with the character. For instance that the character is broken, torn apart, made the wrong choice in killing his father but can't see it, feels alone, isolated, abandonment issues, wants a connection with another person as shown in his pleas for Rey to join him, has light but is for some reason convinced he has to further mutilate himself to drive out the best of himself, is afraid of not being strong enough. These are all very human vulnerabilities and qualities. I don't need the full fleshed out backstory to sympathize with these human qualities that I can understand because I'm human and know most of these feelings in my own experience. (And this is only a partial list.)

The part of me that manages my own feelings and tries to keep them in check looks at the character's poor management of his feelings with sympathy because that part of the character seems to be lacking. And that would really suck. And I have intense emotions and I know the challenges in managing them, and I don't always succeed in managing them even though I keep trying.

And I can further add that one can sympathize with a broken person without condoning their actions and without that meaning someone isn't responsible for their actions. It's not either/or.

I also understand what it's like to be broken and damaged, to not be able to function, to feel alone like an outcast.

Basically I want the character to be forced to see what he is blind to and what he willfully refuses to see, forced to confront himself and his actions, and his selfish disregard for others, and to see all the suffering and death that he has caused and feel something about that.

 

Oh lord.

“Spoon feeding”...

As if these movies were art-house indie flicks aimed primarily at adults with advanced degrees in literature...

Expecting clarity and consistency with the other films within what they have sold as “one big story” =/= “entitled.” That’s absolutely standard for kids’ movies.

 

So I was watching some clips of Rebels again and noticed something about the mind link.

In Rebels Ezra and Maul merge the Jedi and Sith holocrons bringing LIGHT and DARK together. After this their minds are linked together quite similar to Rey and Kylo. Also like Rey who gains knowledge of Kylo's powers Maul gains knowledge from Ezra being the Rebel Base location.

So I suspect that Rey and Kylo's mind link isn't caused by Snoke like he said but by Kylo's interrogation of Rey when LIGHT and DARK are brought together.

 

Matt Martin said that Snoke indeed “bridged” their minds, and that Rey’s and Kylo’s connection is (if I remember correctly) “metaphorical.”

That doesn’t preclude another kind of Force bond, though, ofc.

 

@anakinfansince1983 I find that judgment and understanding are often at cross purposes. If I apply a value judgment or standard backed by my own intense feelings and someone doesn't meet it or violates it, they fall under my judgment and understanding becomes at least partially blocked therefore I can feel very little sympathy for their plight, because I am not really seeing their plight at all. I am seeing my judgments of whatever I disapprove of about them.

And I'd still maintain that TFA and TLJ do have material to sympathize with all the characters. I even sympathized with Hux simply because he was being beat on, and with really Hux and Kylo this thing where they know what it's like to suffer abuse but then inflict abuse upon others is quite mystifying.

Anyway, I explore villain characters because I'm exploring my own shadows, and Kylo is a meaty character in terms of human flaws and shadows, in terms of what he denies to himself, etc.

Regarding personality types I reject MBTI as too flimsy. And I disagree with how it uses functions. Ni, Si, Ne and Se are perceiving. If one of those is the first function, it should be a P type. Ti, Fi, Te, Fe are judging. If one of those is the first function it should be a J type.

I test as INFP or INTP on those tests.

 

I actually read in an interview (it was a video from the Storygroup time ago) that Lawrence Kasdan had the idea of the Force Bond from the interrogation scene. When she fights back Kylo's probe and enters his mind, that's the moment. Snoke was aware (of course, preying in Kylo's mind all the time) and took advantage --and credit-- for it.

 

Well if Snoke isn't responsible for it the proof that he's capable of such things is lost. His ability to apparently watch everything in the galaxy go down from afar, remains. Though how much can be attributed to that um oculus device, I don't know.

 

So, why wouldn’t that have happened when Vader interrogated Leia?

 

I come out ENFP and occasionally ENTP.

 

I was watching Alien Ressurrection which has an interesting female vs. male dynamic, and I know it is primarily created by men. But what I like is that females will not abandon males. We will not leave you to the dark, we will help you better yourself. And it's not that any sex is superior to the other, it's that we are united because we are all human (you are us). It doesn't matter who shows the way, if it is a female form or a male one. It's the face of humanity. And that matters so much. That's what I have to say to "toxic masculinity."

 

My stance is that I love humanity, I don't care their race or their sex or their gender. They are me. I am them, and I'll never forget that we are one--one being. I will forgive my own kin. That is all life, all human beings.