ST Rey's Various Abilities Discussion Thread

It only makes no sense in the context of whatever meaning you've inferred by the decision not to use the mind trick to advance the plot at equivalent points in other stories where they might have used it. That's not the same as seeing that Luke could not have used the mind trick then and you cannot assert that it makes no sense for Rey to use it. Except in the context of the impressions that you have volunteered to form regarding when and how a person should or should not be able to use this ability. That's your opinion and you're entitled to form it in that manner. But it aint necessarily so.

In fact, you've not seen anyone not being able to use a mind trick except Master Qui Gon and Luke in Jedi, because they were using it on a species impervious to the technique. So the only tangible factor that can be agreed on which determines success in a mid trick and is unambiguously presented in the movies is the nature of the trickee. Not the tricker.

 

Yep. Anakin's the Chosen One and yet is stomped when he goes up against Dooku in AOTC. Plus he's older and (as far as we know now) much more trained than Rey at this point. Taken all together Rey's abundance of rad skills took too much of the dramatic tension out of the film for me. By the time we finally see Luke again it's not even that big of a deal, as I question why he's even needed given that Rey seems like a godlike answer sent by the Force itself. Will be interesting to see if they can get some much needed ground level humanity out of the character in the next movie. I hope so. Ridley seems like a good actor, but I didn't think she was given much to work with in TFA as far as dramatic depth.

 

Ren is not Dooku. TFA is not AOTC. Different people. Different journeys.

I think the presumption that the tension and drama should emulate or be dictated by previous stories and their outcomes is a key factor in the sense that the tension is undermined

Like it or not, story requirement (and the decision to kill Obi Wan in Star Wars) was the major factor in having Luke put in an impossible position and him and the audience discovering a never before seen ability in his very first scenes of Empire Strikes Back.

There is a big difference between what that the storyteller wants to say in a scene and things being done simply for the sake of the story.

 

books are Canon now, so the ability to try to move things with the force was not new to Luke in ESB.

 

All books? Including the ones that contradict each other? Luke and Leia really did hold their own against Vader in a duel before ESB? If it's the case that books are canon then practically anything goes.

 

I think there is a big difference between Leia(who is a skilled fighter) holding her own against Vader, to Leia kicking his butt and standing over a fallen, defeated Vader in her very 1st duel. Plus it was more Vader toying with them like Kylo with Finn.

 

And there is a massive difference between Vader and Ren. In fact the difference is expressed explicitly in the movie, yet Vader and Ren are interchangeable when it is convenient to make Ren an insurmountable obstacle for Rey, given what we know or don't know about her. Kylor toying with Finn got him another injury he could have done without and which also factors into his performance against Rey.

 

but how did Luke know that the story didn't require him to use the mind trick ?

 

Why are you making this assumption? For all we know Kylo Ren was the better swordsman between the two. By the way, her winning that duel is a non-issue for me.

Really it comes down to in any previous canon we did not see someone go from 0 to 60 in 3.28 seconds in their ability to use the Force. Instead we see a gradual progression in Force abilities over the course of years. Even after a couple years Luke, a prodigal Force user, still struggles to force pull an object to him. His ability to use the Force only accelerates once he has guidance from Yoda. Rey on the other hand jumps straight to mind tricks, and can out force pull a trained and experienced force user without any guidance at all. Controlling the Force didn't come naturally to Luke, he needed to be told by Obi-Wan how to connect to the Force through his feelings before he felt any connection with the Force. Rey, on the other hand, just seems to naturally know how to connect with the Force. Maybe there is a good explanation, such as previous training that she forgot, but it was horribly executed.

 

It's no assumption. His demeanour, his inconsistent performance,, dialogue expressed by others as well as his own expresses doubts tell us this.

The ability to perform a force skill for the first time has always been presented as an epiphany to the would be Jedi. It has never been quantified.

 

I do not like that Rey won that duel b/c what made DV seem like such a bad ass was that we felt he was practically invulnerable. Now this dude got smacked by an untrained force user. Also, at the risk of sounding sexist, a female lead will not carry the intimidation factor of a male. In other words a female DV for example would simply have not been DV. I'm sure I'll get hammered for this but "search your feelings, you know it to be true".

With that said, I believe we are being set up for an explanation. I think Rey is probably Anakin reincarnated or something like that where her natural ability is far beyond most if not all. If that is true....FOR ME it will only be disappointing if they have Rey carry the whole 3rd trilogy. I need to see Luke and Snoke go at it. If that is billed as the big match up I can live with it.

JMO of course.

 

That isn't what he said, now is it?

That is what he said as to why he thought Rey shouldn't have won. It is for similar reasons as to why Luke should not have, and did not win the first time he dueled Darth Vader, which is not the same as what you are trying to say he said.

What he said that could be construed as sexist is that female humans are not as intimidating as male humans. Which I think most people would agree, the most intimidating males are more intimidating than the most intimidating females. Considering that size tends to be the most important factor in how intimidating someone is this is a very logical stance to take, and is not really sexist just living in the reality of biology and psychology.

 

No, most people would not agree. And that ends this discussion.

 

I shall respect that. I will say though, if you are going to use your position and power to end a discussion you probably should not take a side on what is being discussed. It is a bad look that comes off more as partisan censorship rather than cultivating topical discussion.

 

This is not me weighing in as a poster with an opinion on the matter. This reflects official policy. Obviously what most people think/believe/feel is a claim without evidence or merit; the fact that it's used to back up a sexist position is the issue.

See also:

 

I apologize for trying to give you some constructive criticism.

 

As far as her flying abilities go, I always thought Rey's piloting of the Millennium Falcon was rather clunky to start, but that she knew enough to get by, and as the ride went along she got a better hang of it. She obviously had considered the Falcon garbage, so it's possible she had been inside it previously, quite possibly to scavenge for parts. And in so doing could have examined the controls out of her own curiosity. That, and just having basic piloting skills would have contributed to her being able to pilot the Falcon even if she wasn't familiar with it at all. I'm sure any trained pilot can ultimately get an aircraft they are unfamiliar with into the air and moving, and would subsequently get the hang of it as the ride went along. But I've never considered Rey's piloting of the Falcon to be so expert that it warrants any questioning as to why.

 

Kylo's slips in competence revolve around Rey. I'm not sure why this has to mean that Kylo is weak as opposed to Rey is strong. Beyond this, Kylo does not have to be Vader. He should be a 29 year old dark sided Skywalker who was introduced in to training at least six years before the movie started.

As for the epiphany aspect, is there anything a force wielder could do that would annoy you? Your post seems to imply that the matter is irreducibly subjective, which would suggest there is no comparison to be drawn, so there is no reasonable mechanism by which to conclude something could 'objectively' be the case. Which means a force wielder could do anything, and there is no metric by which to say that is not 'plausible', or some variant. If you mean to say that there is something that could be conceivably too 'far fetched,' then there would have to be a necessary quantifiable aspect. And Rey's achievements could simply be compared to Luke's.

 

The drama revolves around Kylo and Rey. His reaction to her resistance and her fighting back exposed his weaknesses and revealed her strengths. That's not the same as saying Kylo must therefore be weak and Rey strong. (although it doesn't exclude that).

I don't presume to know how a 29 year old dark Skywalker who was introduced to training by Luke 6 years prior (and at a significantly older age than either his uncle or grandfather was initiated) is supposed to perform, in any context. I am learning how that person might perform or behave (when confronted by someone apparently strong with the force) from the one and only example I have. This film.

It would annoy me if there was some unambiguous objective criteria that I expect to be met. Like if I studied a schedule of trains and got to the platform only to discover that the train decided to leave half an hour earlier than scheduled. That would be annoying.

If it were my desire to define the cause and effect of someone discovering their force abilities as a reducible figure, and I devised an equation to predict the outcome of an encounter purely on those reduced factors. The I might get annoyed if the authors did not pre-empt my notions, I might get annoyed.

That does not mean a force wielder can do anything. In fact, I've never seen force wielder do anything close to being defined as anything. Particularly Rey. It is not necessary or appropriate to define other fan's impressions of something that does not meet the objective criteria that you have formed from yours as entirely credulous.

Force wielders in Star Wars movies tend to do what the writer requires of them. That includes of the writer requires them to be beaten - e.g. in AOTC, Anakin has never encountered force lightning before, but he has very successfully used his force powers to pre-empt and deflect hundreds of mid range laser blasts (as he has been trained to do) shortly before being incapable of making any defence of Dooku's opening blast. The ease with which Kenobi then deals with Dooku's lightning exposes the fundamental nature of the problem that Anakin was already equipped to deal with in the manner that Obi Wan did. Hard to fathom why Anakin should fail so quickly if one uses that "criteria" only. But it is dramatically plausible. Which is what the writer is primarily concerned with.

I have not found it necessary to form or apply that kind objective criteria to defining or predicting the outcome of a duel or the kind of abilities I'll permit a force user to demonstrate and when they are permitted to apply them successfully. There are far too many dramatic considerations in each encounter that the supposed objective criteria will inevitably undermine if given undue prominence. And it is the drama that gives the characters and the story life. Not the inevitability of the outcome from a very narrow range of vaguely tangible factors.

The fact that so far it is only special individual from among the numerous species in the saga, chosen by fate or who knows what or why, who can conceivably wield the power of the Force to begin with is only one of the things that prevent me from attempting to reduce the whole concept to nominally objective factors. But it is the first and most obvious reason. It would be a purely personal notion or desire to want to consider it that way and a bit perverse to insist that the authors of the continuing saga adhere to them exclusively.

I keep an open mind. But not so open that my brain falls out. Because it is stated categorically that the force is an energy field and that a force wielder can command that energy to do their bidding, I'm not expecting or predicting Rey or anyone else to be like Dr Manhattan and command energy to slow itself down so that it converts to mass and therefore able create matter of her choosing in order to get out of a tight spot. That would be consistent with the explanation of force use but, as yet, it would make no dramatic sense within the Star Wars saga.