Saga Rhymes and Patterns in the Saga

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Darth_Articulate, Oct 15, 2013.

  1. Darth_Articulate Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 2012
    star 4
    Forgive me (and link me) if there is another thread for this. I know there is the Visual Links thread, but rhymes and patterns in the saga may not always be visual, so I thought it would be nice to have a thread for people to post their keen observations and noticings. (I know that's not a word)

    Evens and Odds: Every odd-numbered Episode has a drawn-out lightsaber battle (or two), while the even-numbered Episodes have shorter ones. Every odd-numbered Episode does not have words in the opening scroll that are all caps, while every even-numbered Episode does. Every odd-numbered episode refers to enemies of the protagonists and every even-numbered episode refers to allies.

    One rhyme that I noticed is the recurring theme of Anakin in a spinning ship. He uses it as a trick in Ep 1 & 3, and then in 4, it happens unexpectedly in defeat. (I love the irony in that)

    Any others?
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  2. Darth Eddie Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 14, 2013
    star 4
    Like, so many. My favorite rhymes are between Empire Strikes Back and Attack of the Clones

    Empire is frontloaded with a terrestrial battle in the snow; Clones is climaxed with a terrestrial battle in the desert.
    An asteroid chase takes place; The Slave I is once fooled, twice wise to the power-down-and-hide trick.
    Anakin speaks to Palpatine; Vader speaks to Sidious.
    Unlikely lovers fall in love: Jedi and Senator, Princess and Pirate
    The villian tells the truth and cuts a hand off.

    ...and while I'm at it, Padme's wedding veil is shaped like Vader's helmet. Like, wow.
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  3. HevyDevy Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 13, 2011
    star 4
    Anakin and Luke are 23 at the end of each trilogy respectively. I believe this number has occult significance.

    Rots takes place exactly 13 years after Tpm. Perhaps supersticiously showing things going bad for Anakin. Also TPM's up ending is inverted by Rots' down ending, which is again inverted by Rotj's up ending.

    Edit- I hit post. I will have to double post.
    Last edited by HevyDevy, Oct 16, 2013
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  4. HevyDevy Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 13, 2011
    star 4
    Sixes reocurr in the saga (as it stands). 6 films. 6 main apprentices - Obi-Wan, Anakin, Luke... Maul, Tyrannus, Vader (interestingly Anakin/Vader are third of both groups). The Order 66 sequence includes a montage of six Jedi being turned on. Six deaths bring about the birth of Vader - Qui-Gon, Shmi, Dooku, Mace, Padme, Anakin.

    Edit - hit post again. Triple post neccessary.
    Last edited by HevyDevy, Oct 16, 2013
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  5. HevyDevy Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 13, 2011
    star 4
    I give up trying to post from my phn for now :oops:

    Anakin's fall and redemption - A spark in Anakin at losing his mother in the middle of one trilogy begins his fall. A spark in Vader at discovering Luke in the middle of the next trilogy begins his redemption. Keep in mind Anakin is still wholly Anakin and Vader is still wholly Vader at this stage. In the third movie of the PT, Anakin is presented with a conflict... the last Sith alive, his father-figure Palpatine is frying himself with lighting. Mace, blind to Anakin's conflict attempts to kill said father-figure, but Anakin interevenes and Mace is killed, and Anakin becomes a Sith. In the third movie of the OT, Vader is presented with the inverse conflict... the last Jedi alive, his son, is being fried by Sidious. Blind to Vader's conflict Sidious tries to kill Luke, but Vader intervenes, kill Sidious and returns as a Jedi. I know this is a very simplistic explanation, but it's all very poetic IMO.

    A dominant master for each movie...
    TPM - Qui-Gon, AOTC - Obi-Wan, ROTS - Sidious, ANH - Obi-Wan (second try ;)), ESB - Yoda, and of course Luke becomes his own Master in ROTJ.

    Adding to the (up)TPM - (down)ROTS - (up) ROTJ thing two posts up... TPM contains Qui-Gon dying in his apprentices arms and being cremated, ROTS has Vader lost by Obi-Wan and immolated (alive!), ROTJ then has Anakin dying in Luke's arms after being reunited, and again a cremation.
    Also, the masking/unmasking thing happens backwards. Anakin turns - is burned - picked up by Sidious in a shuttle - coldly masked - "dies" on hearing of Padme's death. In Ep6... turns back - warmly unmasked - taken away by Luke in a shuttle - cremated - rejoins the Jedi.
    Thirdly a lush green planet with natives helping the good guys features in all three... TPM has the Gungans (Naboo) freed when Anakin destroys the orbiting control-ship. ROTJ also has the Ewoks (Endor) freeing the main characters on ground, which helps the orbiting deathstar 2 be destroyed. ROTS of course has Wookies (Kashyyyk) being partially wiped out, a contrast to both TPM and ROTJ.

    Obi-Wan loses Master Qui-Gon to Maul in TPM, then metaphorically loses apprentice Anakin to Vader 13 years later.

    There are many more, maybe they'll come to me later.
  6. Darth_Articulate Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 2012
    star 4

    Impressive....MOST impressive!
  7. Force Smuggler Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    How about by watching the saga in release order, C-3PO says the first and last words of the saga and Tatooine is the first and last planet seen in the saga.
  8. Yondo Kuromu Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2013
    star 1
    The parade theme at the end of Ep 1 is just the Emperor's theme but its speed is increased.
    Ep 5, Luke was held upside down whenever he's using the Force, first in the Wampa's cave trying to get his lightsaber, second training with Yoda and third, calling for Leia
    C3PO has the first line in OT and the last line in the PT
    Anakin's theme at the end sounds like Darth Vader's Imperial March theme.
    Ep 3, when Anakin ignited his lightsaber, his movements are identical but exaggerated when compared to Luke when he first ignited the same lightsaber in Ep 4
    "I have a bad feeling about this."
    "You're gonna get us (both/us) killed."
    Obi Wan lets out his anger in Ep 1 and Luke lets out his anger in Ep 6.
    C3PO gets broken in episode 2 and 5.
    Kamino has a city above the water and Bespin has a city above the clouds.
    Anakin fell from high altitudes in 2 and Luke in 5.
    Ep 2 tries to repeat smokey environment in Ep 5 in the lightsaber duel.
    Dooku throws objects at Yoda in Ep 2 that looks like objects in Ep 5 when Vader throws things at Luke.
    Anakin blows up Trade Federation Battleship, Luke blows up Death Star.
    There are similar looking machines in the duel in the Invisible Hand and the duel in the 2nd Death Star
    Ep 2 and Ep 5, first appearance of the mandolorian armour in each trilogy.
    Ep 2 and Ep 5, love story
    Ep 3 and 6: Sidious first time using one word per sentence: Good. Gooooood.
    In PT, there's a new side kick for each episode, Maul, Tyrannus, and Grievous.
    Yoda shows his lighter side in Ep 2 in front of the younglings and lighter side in Ep 5 while testing Luke.
    Obi Wan jumped off the lava float and landed on the higher ground, Anakin followed and got his limbs amputated in Ep 3, Darth Vader learned his lesson not to jump to fight Luke after Luke jumped and landed on the higher ground in Ep 6 but to throw his lightsaber at him
    Anakin's and Luke's clothings turned from light coloured to dark coloured in their respective trilogies
    Padme and Leia having cinnamon hair bunds in Ep 3 and 4 respectively, never in the other episodes.
    Sidious plays weak in Ep 3 and 6
    Darth Maul was waiting for the Jedi in Ep 1 and Darth Vader was waiting for Obi Wan in Ep 4
    Ep 3 start off with the epic space battle of Coruscant and Ep 6 ended with the epic space battle of Endor
    Ep 3, Anakin was defeated and landed on his front, Ep 6, Vader was defeated and landed on his back


    Lightsaber colour: Whoever carries a blue lightsaber will always lose a duel, unless your opponent carries a blue lightsaber, or you are holding a blue and indirectly holding a red lightsaber. Examples:
    Ep 1: Obi Wan won by using a green lightsaber
    Ep 2: Obi Wan and Anakin lost using a blue lightsaber
    Ep 3: Anakin defeated Dooku but he was holding Dooku's hand, thus, indirectly holding Dooku's red lightsaber, Obi Wan got knocked out and was holding a blue lightsaber, Grievous was holding a blue lightsaber and got his hands amputated, Anakin got all his organic limbs amputated and was holding a blue lightsaber
    Ep 4: Obi Wan lost by default and was holding a blue lightsaber
    Ep 5: Luke lost and was holding a blue lightsaber
    Last edited by Yondo Kuromu, Oct 19, 2013
  9. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 7
    It should be noted that Yoda, and whoever was using a green lightsaber in Palpatine's office, also lose their fights.
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  10. Darth_Articulate Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 2012
    star 4
    Yes, but he never said green lightsabers were a guaranteed win (look at Qui-Gon), just that blue-lightsabers, with a couple caveats, were guaranteed losers.
  11. HevyDevy Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 13, 2011
    star 4
    Nice parallels Yondo Kuromu.

    Continuing on the saber colour thing... Anakin and Obi-Wan both lose to Dooku with the same blue saber, after the green saber Anakin is using is destroyed. Taking it further, Anakin and Luke both lose their arm/hand with a saber handed to them by Obi-Wan. And Luke of course is dismembered using, and symbolically loses, Anakin's saber at finding out Vader is his father.

    Another good contrast is Maul and Dooku's deaths.
    Obi-wan kills Maul from the submissive position (defeat) with his master's green saber, arguably putting him on the path to being a Jedi.
    Anakin kills Dooku in cold-blood from the dominant position (victory) using a blue and red saber (his master's master's master's saber) and puts himself on the path to becoming a Sith.
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  12. HevyDevy Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 13, 2011
    star 4
    Did anyone notice that when Mace and his posse confront Palpatine, Palpatine kills them in reverse order of saber ignition? Mace activates first and dies last, etc. It's like Sidious kills the easier ranks first.

    There is some inversion in TPM and Aotc. I watched them simultaneously once, and Anakin saying goodbye to Shmi happened at the same time as discovering Shmi at the Tusken camp.
    Also Anakin leaves his mother and journeys from Tatooine to Coruscant and Naboo. In the next film he returns to Tatooine (from Coruscant and Naboo) and after briefly reuniting with his mother, loses her.
    Last edited by HevyDevy, Oct 20, 2013
  13. Cryogenic Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 2005
    star 5
    Great thread. I was going to add to this today -- my day off -- but I'm dealing with a hangover. Thoughts on The Wars not coming easily right now. That'll teach me to drink like a fish after ten months of abstinence. :p
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  14. Darth_Articulate Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 2012
    star 4
    These are awesome!!
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  15. Seagoat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2013
    star 4
    Love threads like these!

    A lot of the ones I know off the top of my head have already been mentioned, and a lot of others are simple things I couldn't write here that you could just see in the "Visual Links" thread.

    Hm... I do know of one that crosses the saga with TCW. So what the hell, I'll share it here.

    In the episode "The Lawless" when Darth Maul senses Sidious's presence, he says "I sense something, a presence I've not felt since...", which is the same thing Vader says in ANH when sensing his former master (Obi-Wan)
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  16. HevyDevy Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 13, 2011
    star 4
    TPM and ROTS...

    I've noticed a lot of opposites between these movies. Lucas is said to be very supersticious, and I think it was either a conscious or subconscious effort to make a "heaven" and "hell" type theme between the movies. It is more noticeable when you compare ROTS to ROTJ, but I strongly feel this connection is there. Some examples...

    - The opening crawl and opening scenes of the movies describe two Jedi being sent by the current Supreme Chancellor in Ep1 and to rescue the current Supreme Chancellor in Ep3. TPM describes a negotiation where ROTS describes full-scale war. Also, Obi-Wan is the apprentice of the the two Jedi, then the Master of the two.

    - On Gunray's (the current "Seperatist" leader of the movie) ship, the Jedi flee droid-dekas and are tracked moving away from them. On Grievous's (the current Seperatist leader of ROTS) the Jedi are tracked again, moving towards an enounter with droid-dekas, each encounter being shot similarly.

    - Palpatine manipulates Padme into initiating his ascension to Supreme Chancellor. Palpatine of course later manipulates her husband into helping him become Emperor.
    There is also a similar moment where Padme defies Palpatine's request to stay on Naboo "where it's safe" to which Padme replies "My fate will be no different from that of my people". In Ep3 Palpatine requests the opposite "We must get of this ship before it is too late" to which Anakin mirrors Padme with "His fate will be the same as ours".

    - In TPM, Palpatine holds less power than Padme. He needs her status to bring their case to the Senate. In ROTS Padme watches helplessly as Sidious declares himself Emperor. Padme as Queen had red royal guards, the Emperor will of course later.

    - In TPM, Anakin is a helpless child, his life is totally in Qui-Gon's hands, a symbolic example is Qui-Gon telling him "Anakin, drop!" as Maul almost runs him over. In ROTS, Anakin is one of the most powerful people in the galaxy, and of course he murders children not much different to how he once was, metaphorically killing the innocence in himself. Also, Anakin leaving his mother forebodingly transitions to a scene with Maul, who he will one day replace.

    - Mace communicates to Anakin both that he will not be trained, and will not be a Master.

    - Darth Maul is sent to assist the TF on Naboo (an arguably "heaven" symbolising planet), where in ROTS Vader is sent to kill Gunray and the other Seperatists on Mustafar (hell). You can see why the Seperatists greeted their executioner calmly, as in TPM and AOTC they had worked with the Sith before ("A Sith here?"). Also, both the Seperatists and Anakin meet their demise on Mustafar, again re-enforcing the "Hell" theme. Notice also Nute is instructed to "Wipe them out", then Vader is instructed to "Wipe out Viceroy Gunray". Role-reversal.

    - TPM ends with a celebration on Naboo, one of ROTS' closing scenes is Padme's funeral on Naboo. The Japor snippet against Padme's blue dress contrasts the scene where Anakin gives it to her 13 years earlier, with a shot set against her red dress.

    There are more, not coming to me at the moment.
    Last edited by HevyDevy, Oct 24, 2013
  17. HevyDevy Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 13, 2011
    star 4
    ROTS/ROTJ duels. I've posted this several times before...

    -The settings; Invisible Hand/Deathstar II
    -Obi-Wan: "Well have you noticed the shields are still up?"/The Deathstar shields are still up on arrival.
    -Both duels happen at the top of a spire, that elevators are taken to reach the tops of.
    -The last space battle of each trilogy rages outside our duel setting, visible through the window. Where the Seperatists are attempting to flee with Palpatine hostage, and are blocked by Star Destroyer equivalents, the Rebels are trapped by similar ships.
    -Sidious watches the duel from a chair in both scenes. He gloats as both Dooku and Vader are overpowered by the younger duelist.
    -Sidious removes Luke's cuffs using the force on Luke's arrival/Anakin does the same for Sidious after Dooku's death.
    -After coaxing from the current Sith apprentice, both Anakin and Luke tap into the darkside as they go all out on Dooku/Vader, the camera panning right to left as they attack. Luke requires far more antagonism before he snaps.
    -At Dooku's defeat, Anakin holds sabers at his throat/At Vader's defeat, Luke holds his saber at Vader's throat. Sidious encourages them to finish the Sith apprentices off.
    -Luke looks at his robot hand and sees similarity between himself and Vader/Anakin has nothing but hate for Dooku.
    -Anakin symbolically takes the blue saber in his robot hand, perhaps symbolising he is leaving his good side behind. He takes the red saber in his flesh hand, possibly an omen. Also, there is symbolism in the two colours representing the dual path he must choose between.
    -Where Luke lets go of his hate and defiantly throws away his saber, Anakin takes a Sith saber from Dooku and decapitates him with it. The contrast in colours should be noted; green for Luke, red and blue for Anakin.
    -Lastly, the scenes end with Anakin carrying an unconscious brother figure, and Luke carrying a dying father.
  18. Cryogenic Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 2005
    star 5
    ^^^ Terrific posts, HD.

    I said I'd come back to this and here I am.

    I need a jumping-off point, so I'll just pick a comment of yours and add one thing:

    - Darth Maul is sent to assist the TF on Naboo (an arguably "heaven" symbolising planet), where in ROTS Vader is sent to kill Gunray and the other Seperatists on Mustafar (hell). You can see why the Seperatists greeted their executioner calmly, as in TPM and AOTC they had worked with the Sith before ("A Sith here?").

    Yep... That line ("A Sith here?") is quite poetic, too, and seems to resonate with Vader appearing suddenly at the foot of the dinner table on Cloud City: the "heavenly" locale of the OT, perhaps. In Star Wars, heaven plays host to demons -- a warning, you might say, to beware of creating or of believing in false paradises, political or otherwise.

    And Darth_Articulate, you said at the start:

    Every odd-numbered Episode has a drawn-out lightsaber battle (or two), while the even-numbered Episodes have shorter ones.

    Well, it's a little bit more finessed than that, in fact, since the odd-numbered duels are all situated in power plants or refineries. There is a parallel progression in the mechanization of the "evil" antagonist in each installment, in story order, at these locations, too.

    Here are a few more:

    - TPM and TESB are the only installments with a single glyph for their "episode" number. They are also the only installments in which the lead Skywalker character admits to feeling "cold" in front of Yoda. Tonally, they are quite divergent (perhaps the most different of all the episodes in the existing saga).

    - The middle installments of the PT and OT each have a "galaxy within a galaxy" motif. In TESB, we see a galactic cloud formation at the end of the movie. In AOTC, Obi-Wan brings that little ball to Yoda and the younglings, which generates a model galaxy of stars when placed in that receptacle. Later, Obi-Wan looks at a display screen showing the main SW galaxy, as well as the Rishi Maze, a possible satellite galaxy.

    - AOTC and TESB also break from the unitary narrative structuring of the former movie with a two-part "chase" narrative which brings the protagonists back together in the final act. They are also full of fog/smoke, trees and vines, mystery, and a "horror"-movie vibe. Many other links have already been noted here or elsewhere.

    - TPM is the only installment not to feature an optic-white ship or planet interior:
    AOTC = Kamino
    ROTS = The Tantive
    ANH = The Tantive/Rebel Blockade Runner
    TESB = Echo Base/Hoth and Cloud City
    ROTJ = Home One (Admiral Ackbar's ship)

    TPM does, however, feature a ship with a cream (matte) interior and a chrome (shiny) exterior. And the generator room at Theed features optic-white tendrils of energy pulsating through massive columns.

    - In AOTC, ROTS, and TESB, Yoda wields a cylindrical device that emits a beam of light; in TPM and ROTJ, he does not.

    - Obi-Wan is the only main character to have wet hair in all three PT movies:
    TPM = In the forest on Naboo (after emerging from a swamp -- cut scene; but still visibly wet in the completed film)
    AOTC = On Kamino
    ROTS = After climbing out of the sink hole on Utapau

    - The "Rule Of Fives". Much is made of Star Wars (for obvious reasons) in terms of the numbers six, three, and two, but little is said about five. Here are some manifestations (primarily from the PT because I'm feeling lazy):
    TPM = Five potential "saga" protagonists (Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan, Amidala, Jar Jar, Anakin -- in order of appearance)
    AOTC = Five planets journeyed to by main protagonists (Coruscant, Naboo, Kamino, Tatooine, Geonosis -- in order of appearance); it's normally three
    AOTC (again) = Five main action sequences (speeder chase (Coruscant), Obi-Wan vs. Jango (Kamino), asteroid chase (Geonosis), droid factory (Geonosis), arena battle/air chase/lightsaber duels (Geonosis; one long (unbroken) action sequence)
    AOTC (yet again) = Interplay of five lightsaber-wielding (skilled) Jedi/ex-Jedi on Geonosis (Mace, Anakin, Obi-Wan, Dooku, Yoda -- in order of lightsaber-drawing)
    AOTC (super sorry, yet again) = Five characters speak in post-action-sequence, pre-ending-montage sequence on Coruscant (Sidious, Dooku, Obi-Wan, Yoda, Mace -- in order of speaking); it then surges to five silent main-ish characters (one adult (Palpatine) and four "kids/younglings" (Anakin, Padme, Artoo, Threepio))
    ROTS = Five lightsaber duels (Obi-Wan, Anakin, Dooku (Invisible Hand), Obi-Wan vs. Grievous (Utapau), Mace vs. Palpatine (Coruscant), Anakin vs. Obi-Wan (Mustafar), Yoda vs. The Emperor (Coruscant))
    ROTS (again) = Five "iris out" wipes in ending montage (Threepio, japor snippet, Vader, Leia, Owen/Beru/Luke)
    ROTS (yet again) = Can't help pointing this one out, but the "claw"/"arm" that Anakin and Obi-Wan fight on and which gets pelted with lava has five "fingers"/"phalanges" (it is also only after five Mustafar chunks/duel-iterations (intercut segments) have fully played out that this arm is destroyed/pelted with lava)

    Oh, okay. One for the OT:
    ANH = Five purposeful approach shots of the Millennium Falcon as it is ominously -- or is that gracefully? -- pulled into the belly of the beast by the Death Star's tractor beam.

    ^ That's not my own observation. Credit to MSTRMND of, well, MSTRMND:
    http://www.mstrmnd.com/log/1332

    A slightly more obscure and "subjective" "Rule Of Fives" concerns the manner in which one watches these films. Five of the films can be grouped together in different ways with the other being thought of as an aberration, deviation, counterpoint, progression, synthesis, etc. For example:

    TPM = Prelude with the others being the "main" story (pre-war, agrarian look/feel, light, whimiscal tone, regal setting, etc.)
    AOTC = Open-ended, dream-like ambiance and pacing
    ROTS = Sweeping galactic tragedy
    ANH = Light-hearted serial adventure homage
    TESB = Spiritual peripeteia (cave sequence/when Luke discovers Vader is his father)
    ROTJ = Death of Yoda and the Emperor/rebirth of the Jedi/new life cycle

    - In watching my ROTS DVD just now -- for "research", you must understand ;) -- I realized that tables, of all things, play a big part in Anakin's life in the PT:
    - TPM = Dinner table scene on Tatooine
    - AOTC = Dinner table scene on Naboo and discussion with Cliegg regarding Shmi on Tatooine
    - ROTS = Control room on Mustafar and rotating operating table back on Coruscant when assembled into cybernetic form of Darth Vader

    ^ Padme is the grounding force and is present in the examples from TPM and AOTC. Notably, she is absent from the examples in ROTS (though crosscut in the latter).

    - AOTC and ANH both have a final act in which the colour orange and various shades of orange play a vital role.

    - A little word on clothing: In AOTC and TESB respectively, Yoda and Han wear brighter clothes compared to their appearance in the preceding and following installments. In AOTC, Yoda's outer cloak is several shades lighter and has a smoother, more CG-ish texture; this is immediately gone when Yoda re-appears in ROTS. In TESB, Han sports a blue jacket, which he is divested of in the carbon freezing chamber; after the sail barge sequence in ROTJ, he likewise reverts to his earlier look from ANH.

    - Tatooine appears in all the movies, except for TESB.

    - HevyDevy has mentioned how TPM and ROTS are sort of like spiritual opposites of each other: complementary pairs. Lots of interesting links to notice here, including how Threepio seems rigidly opposed to spaceflight in TPM ("They will never get me onto one of those dreadful starships"), while he congratulates himself after successfully starting up Padme's ship in ROTS ("I think I'm beginning to get the hang of this flying business"). Threepio is back to using the word dreadful a short time later -- albeit, this time, to describe Mustafar, not his attitude to spaceflight.

    - ^ Talking of "hang", ROTS has lots of references to gripping and hanging (by a thread).

    - The prequel movies close with progressively later (in the day) and more private, less baroque settings:
    TPM = Big impersonal celebration/parade in the middle of the afternoon; characters all facing the camera
    AOTC = Secret wedding in waning light; characters with their backs to the camera
    ROTS = Young farmers humbly watching a sunset from their own doorstep; again, with their backs to the camera

    First and last (spoken) words of the PT:
    - Captain, tell them we wish to board immediately.
    - What? Oh, no!

    It's like Threepio is sensing Qui-Gon's hasty direction --- the past and the present are one ("A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away") -- and the doom it most certainly spells.

    - Just throwing this one out there, for now, << ha!, before I forget. "The Phantom Menace" = Time. Or our "perception" of it.

    - No, really, it just might.

    Back to your normal (erratic) programming...

    - Luke is upside-down four times -- at least one time on each planet -- in TESB:
    - Cave (Hoth)
    - Training with Yoda (Dagobah) twice
    - Weather vane (Cloud City/Bespin)

    - I tried a thread like this earlier in the year:
    http://boards.theforce.net/threads/saga-narratives-the-different-things-going-on.50009846/

    Okay... I'll stop there. For now.

    I realize that my response has turned out to be very PT-centric, but I guess that that reflects my ongoing intellectual and aesthetic fascination with the more recent (and, I think, in many ways, cinematically ambitious) trilogy, which still has me enthralled (more enthralled, these days, if that's possible).
    Last edited by Cryogenic, Oct 24, 2013
  19. Cryogenic Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 2005
    star 5
    Brief addendum:

    Misrecollection. Obi-Wan looks at the screen first and THEN goes to see Yoda/the younglings. In this way, there is actually a clear progression, from two-dimensional representation, and Obi musing, in a chair, after being snubbed by an elder authority figure, to the three-dimensional abstract form of the galaxy, or at least the Rishi Maze, in the Yoda/younglings scene, with Obi-Wan now stood, and his head literally among the stars, pushed forward on his quest by wise words coming from a child, not Jocasta or Yoda (oldies). In Yoda's defence, he at least seems to know (in the most basic of terms) what has happened to Obi-Wan's "missing planet", and simply allows one of his own students to provide the correct answer. Jocasta, though? Pfft.

    One cool connection I forgot to add -- between AOTC and ROTS:

    Well, two:

    - Firstly, an "underworld" motif. In the final act of both movies, a beard-donning aristocrat Jedi/Sith, with links to Qui-Gon, mutilates the "Chosen One", Qui-Gon's ward, and escapes to a hidden base with precious/stolen cargo of an heretical/imperfectly spherical kind (the Death Star plans (the embodiment of death)/Padme's belly: the Force-sensitive twins (the embodiment of life)) An elder mentor/protector of the "Chosen One" senses something amiss and comes to his rescue (too late in the latter example). There is even a sort of link between the ship in the earlier movie (a ship with solar sails) and the collector platform which breaks up in the lava (it looks like an extended sail). The ultimate destination of both ships, really, is the mouth of hell. Very intense, brooding colours feature predominantly in the final trajectory of both "ships"; though only one is destroyed.

    - While some testing occurred in TPM, only AOTC and ROTS were shot exclusively with digital video sensors (and feature digital ships, beginning to end, in flight). Video is more practical as a surveillance medium than film; and so it is that AOTC and ROTS, unique in the saga, are imbued with a surveillance aesthetic. The SW universe is under more intense probing in AOTC and ROTS, I feel, and characters seem to show a greater awareness, at times, of being watched. In a way, their internalized sense of being watched brings about their downfall: our spectatorship is an inherent part of their inevitable fates. We can't get enough and the weight of us peering into their alien, yet familiar, world exerts a claustrophobic "force" -- we are the "gods" behind the Force, from a certain POV -- which shatters their clemency (e.g., Anakin) and causes them, consciously and unconsciously, to embrace a metaphysical construct (i.e., the Dark Side) in an attempt to wrest control and remake their world independently of us. "There are heroes on both sides" (of the cinema screen). Our fascination presages their doom; demands a cataclysmic end.
    Last edited by Cryogenic, Oct 24, 2013
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  20. Darth_Articulate Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 2012
    star 4
    The last non-credit word of TPM is "Peace!" and the first non-credit word of ROTS is "War!"
  21. HevyDevy Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 13, 2011
    star 4
    Great additions, Cryo.

    Nice observation! Another couple I just remembered...

    - In ep1 Qui-Gon, the "Master" of the film, teaches Anakin about symbiosis with midichlorians and being guided by them to do the will of the force. In ep3 Sidious, the "Master" of the film, inversely teaches Anakin about controlling the midichlorians to create/preserve life. Not only is this a contrast in the attitude of the Sith and the Jedi about the force (the Jedi being guided vs the Sith taking control of their own destiny and imposing their own will on the force) but also notice that Qui-Gon achieves a certain state of immortality in retaining his identity after death, where Sidious claims that the Sith can achieve immortality less naturally. Lastly, Qui-Gon and Sidious are the father-figures for Anakin that Obi-Wan couldn't be, and Qui-Gon's death pushes Anakin closer to Sidious. Obi-Wan is more like a brother to Anakin, and I feel it is implied that Sidious offers Anakin something that he lost when Qui-Gon was killed.

    - A false state of peace is brought about by Anakin in each film. In TPM Anakin innocently accidentally destroys the droid control-ship (arguably guided by the will of the force) and saves the day. While it wins the battle for the good-guys, Palpatine has become Supreme Chancellor so the celebrations have a forebodingly ironic tinge to them.
    In ROTS Anakin shuts down the droids again... but this time by contrastingly killing the Seperatists leaders in cold-blood, and ordering the droids shut down. This helps bring in the Sith definition of peace, the oppression of the entire galaxy. The Rebels will later create civil war between the Rebels and the Empire, where Vader will of course, based on the same misguided belief that he is bringing order, treat the Rebels like the Seperatists. We know of course, that the Rebels cause, while sharing some similarities, was far more noble than the Seperatist's.
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  22. HevyDevy Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 13, 2011
    star 4
    Oh another small one is dual identities of someone close to Anakin... Padme/Queen Amidala and Palpatine/Emperor Sidious.

    Edit- They both come from Naboo, their more official halves feature a white face surrounded by black clothing, they have red royal guards, Anakin states "I will do whatever you ask" to both in very different contexts (Aotc/Rots) and lastly Padme gives up her power over the course of the trilogy (queen to Senator) where Palpatine greedily makes the opposite progression from senator to Chancellor to Emperor. Also I guess Anakin, in his effort to keep Padme, ends up left with only Sidious. Ouch.
    Last edited by HevyDevy, Oct 28, 2013
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  23. HevyDevy Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 13, 2011
    star 4
    Forgive the repeated posting, I'm just a little caffeine high and remembering stuff :p

    Continuing on the theme of dual identities there are a fair few revelations in Star wars.

    Tpm - Padme = Amidala.
    Aotc - Not sure on this one. Perhaps Sifo-Dayos = Tyrannus?
    Rots - Palpatine = Sidious.
    Anh - Ben Kenobi = Obi-Wan.
    Esb - Vader = Luke's father.
    Rotj - Boush (spl?) = Leia. Leia = Luke's sister.


    To add my own theory to the previous saber colour discussion. This one is kinda specific to Aotc. I noticed a contrast in how Anakin uses his sabers, his blue and the green. He only kills living creatures while using the blue, (the poisonous slugs and Geonosians). With the green saber he only kills droids, nothing alive. Then, perhaps symbolically, the green is destroyed by Dooku and he loses his arm fighting with the blue. Perhaps coincidence but I found it interesting.
    Last edited by HevyDevy, Oct 28, 2013
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  24. HevyDevy Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 13, 2011
    star 4
    Falling;

    Anakin voluntarily falls a great distance onto Zam's speeder in AOTC. In ESB Luke voluntarily falls a great distance in defiance of Vader's request to join him.

    Yoda falling from the podium when he is defeated by Sidious symbolises the fall of the Jedi. Sidious being thrown to his doom in ROTJ symbolises the Jedi's return (ROTJ also inverts ROTS where, while in the elevator shaft Palpatine and Obi-wan are hanging onto Anakin for dear life. You could say Anakin is carrying both orders, and there is also an interplay of his two Master's being in competition for him).

    There are also other symbolic instances of Jedi falling in ROTS. Mace falling to his death marks the beginning of the end. Obi-Wan's clones turn on him and Obi-Wan is almost killed falling into water.


    Saber drops;

    Lots of these, most in ROTS.

    - In TPM Obi-Wan loses his saber when defeated by Maul, then regains his composure, takes his Master's saber and kills Maul.
    - Anakin loses his saber in the AOTC speeder chase, which Obi-Wan catches. He also gets his saber destroyed in the droid-factory. And finally, the green saber is destroyed by Dooku.
    - ROTS. When Dooku is dismembered his saber is taken from him and used to kill him. Anakin's and Obi-Wan's sabers are briefly taken by Grievous on the Invisible Hand. Obi-Wan drops his saber while chasing Grievous, and perhaps as an ironic nod to his frustrations with Anakin always losing his saber, is given it back to him by Cody. Palpatine's first saber is lost out the window while fighting Mace. Mace's saber go out the window (with the rest of the Jedi order) when Anakin betrays Mace. Yoda's saber is zapped out of his grip at the end of his showdown with Sidious. Anakin's saber, a connection to his old identity, is taken by Obi-Wan when he defeats Vader. The torch is then passed on to Luke, who uses it until he symbolically loses it when Vader dismembers him and reveals his true identity. And finally Luke reverses roles with Vader in ROTJ, defeating/dismembering Vader using his anger, Vader's saber going down the shaft with one of his robotic hands. Luke makes the connection that Vader was once like him, and that killing him would take him down the same path, and throws his saber away, refusing to turn.
  25. HevyDevy Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 13, 2011
    star 4
    Thanx for the likes @Darth_Articulate. Any feedback on what you took from it?

    I thought I might add to this post something major I overlooked.
    One of the main reasons I came up with this theory is that Anakin slaughters the entire Tusken village using blue. With green he appears more Jedi-like, protecting Padme and Obi-Wan and using his calming technique on the Reek. While he still arrogantly charges at Dooku with the green, I still think it something of an omen that the green saber (Qui-Gon, Yoda, Jedi Luke, etc) is destroyed.