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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

ST Rian Johnson to write and direct Episode VIII (and also new SW Trilogy - see page 194)

Discussion in 'Sequel Trilogy' started by Momotaros, Jun 20, 2014.

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  1. Artoo-Dion

    Artoo-Dion Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 9, 2009
    You're right, but I think it's interesting that it kind of predicts the reception to TLJ. I mean, he obviously has a quirkiness to his style that won't click for everyone.
     
  2. yassir.khan

    yassir.khan Jedi Master star 4

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    Nov 27, 2014
    Ozymandias is for my money one of the best episodes on TV. Ever.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
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  3. La Calavera

    La Calavera Force Ghost star 4

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    Sep 2, 2015
    Hmm I wouldn’t say that episode is a good example though. If anything it showed to me that Rian is a talented filmmaker, because the cinematography and direction were the strengths of that episode.

    The criticism of TLJ is mostly centered on the script though. I don’t see many people complaining about the filmmaking of the movie. And it’s also my opinion that Rian’s weaknesses lay in the writing department. Some script issues I had with Looper and Brothers Bloom also manifested in TLJ.
     
  4. darthgator1217

    darthgator1217 Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Apr 25, 2005
    I would agree here. The script is the weakness IMO.
     
  5. darthgator1217

    darthgator1217 Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Apr 25, 2005
    I must say that using box office numbers as an indicator of quality is very problematic. Plenty of dreck makes good money.

    Perhaps folks said the PT did not feel connected to the OT, fair enough, but I would disagree. The universe that GL created in the PT felt more consistent with that of the OT for me at least. Take the way the force works, for example.

    We do not see Anakin manipulating objects or using the mind trick in TPM, as an example. It is only in ATOC that these type of abilities.skills arise after his apprenticeship with Obi wan. These facts alone make the new SW quite different to me.
     
  6. JoJoPenelli

    JoJoPenelli Chosen One star 6

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    Aug 14, 2000
    Imo the script suffered in part because RJ wanted to make it as meta as humanly possible.

    I love meta as much as the next enthusiastic SW fan but imo at points it came at the expense of good dialogue and good storytelling.
     
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  7. Ender_and_Bean

    Ender_and_Bean Chosen One star 6

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    May 19, 2002
    Rian Johnson to me is probably the closest heir apparent to James Cameron as a writer/director after Christopher Nolan. JJ Abrams is closer to a Ron Howard in that he’s a student of the craft but lacks his own distinct voice visually or as a writer. Johnson is closer to Cameron or Nolan because you can imagine him making his own big properties following this new Star Wars trilogy.

    Nolan is next up obviously as the heir apparent to Cameron but if Johnson’s trilogy is inventive and beloved and a blast and he starts doing sort of his own Inceptions and then serious dramas after that in his 40s I think he’ll be just below him and seen as one of the better large scale directors of his era.

    In all cases I’d say that the visual Direction from all 3 is stronger than their writing (In Nolan’s case it’s his brother who focuses more on that) but even if Johnson was “only” a writer I still think he’d be among the more interesting young blockbuster writers out there right now and in demand.

    Johnson is a mix Cameron, Spielberg and Lucas but he’s also of that new school like Edgar Wright that is willing to go a little more experimental and fun as well. Though not tot the same extent as Wright obviously does.

    What if some of the concepts related to the Force and belief and control are always going to be harder for a child — even an incredibly gifted one — to grasp immediately instead of an late teen?

    We know that the Jedi Order preferred getting to young savants and working with them sooner but that could have had more to do with starting them on the right path sooner so that they don’t develop bad habits.

    Think of it this way. I never learned to golf until I was an adult. My golf instructor told me it took me one lesson to learn what it often takes younger students the summer to grasp and that’s because the kids aren’t paying attention and aren’t focusing on the value of a repetitive swing that’s the same each time. So, while there are advantages to starting earlier perhaps something like a Jedi mind trick is something that makes more sense to an older mind accustomed to influence? There’s also the possibility that some students take to some areas faster than others and that Rey gleaned some info in flashes from her mind probe with Kylo Ren.

    If you open your mind to some possibilities for why it could be different to enjoy the fun instead of looking for ways to stay disengaged you might find a way in that will work for you.

    Rey to me has shown some huge concerning weaknesses already for starting her training so late related to control. Luke would have never shown the temper she did against Obi-Wan. Rey has shown some troubling signs that could become allies of the Dark Side.
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2018
  8. Satipo

    Satipo Force Ghost star 7

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    Mar 29, 2014
    Out of interest, where do you think the writing is too meta to the detriment of the story, and where / how would improve it? I can think of at least two places where I would tweak the scene, but I'm not sure if the issue is that the beats/ scenes are too meta or not.
     
  9. Jedi Knight Fett

    Jedi Knight Fett Chosen One star 10

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    Feb 18, 2014
    Perhaps he thinks of Star Wars in a different way then you do
     
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  10. JoJoPenelli

    JoJoPenelli Chosen One star 6

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    Aug 14, 2000
    Generally, I feel that there is information RJ is conveying, and commentary he is making, and questions he is inviting, that I feel should have been made explicit. The most glaring example, to me, is really the entire Luke/Rey story. I don’t actually take issue with the story itself; it’s that RJ lets the mets do the talking in a ways that made those scenes just feel...rather boring and emotionally flat. I’m familiar with the reluctant teacher/eager young apprentice trope; they tend to be more engaging and entertaining in their surface read. What RJ should have done depended entirely on what LFL is doing with the story. Imo RJ should have better defined the relationship and given it enough emotional weight to justify it being the centerpiece of the movie or LFL should have restructured its story or compromised on its ambitions.

    Additionally, at times, the dialogue just didn’t feel like it had a clear surface read at all. Example:

    Rey: I should have felt trapped or panicked. But I didn't. This didn't go on forever, I knew it was leading somewhere. And that, at the end, it would show me what I came to see.

    (Oh I wonder what that means...)

    Really, really blatent example:

    Kylo: You have no place in this story.

    Come on, RJ...
     
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  11. Satipo

    Satipo Force Ghost star 7

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    Mar 29, 2014
    Interesting. I don't see the cave line as meta at all.

    I think the second does, but works well.

    I guess for me, I see their relationship as playing out as the film suggests. She's looking for guidance and a legend to return to the galaxy. So I don't see where it would be more clearly defined. To me it works as is. Not saying this to be argumentative, I'm trying to work out where the meta stuff gets in the way. For me, on fist view I thought Rey's motivations were largely driven by being in a SW story - but on second watch I felt it was fair that she was following Luke's inspiration with Vader. That made sense to me.
     
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  12. Ender_and_Bean

    Ender_and_Bean Chosen One star 6

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    May 19, 2002
    Yeah, I think that line to Rey works perfectly. It's classic gaslighting manipulation to make her feel like she has to lean on him but at the same time it sort of works on the Rey haters who are so accustomed to the tropes of the parent and child relationship that they haven't been able to figure out her place either.

    I think one of the most impressive aspects of Johnson's script, which juggles a lot more arcs than what is considered safe in blockbuster film making, and brings them all together for a climax, is that it works on multiple levels much of the time. A great example of how he cleverly creates scenes that can work for different groups of people in different ways is the Porg and Chewie scene. For the people who hate cutesy fare entirely the idea of Chewie killing and roasting a Porg is hilarious. Some have even implied that in their head cannon the one at the end who looks at him the longest was related to that Porg in some way. How subversive is that for people who enjoy darker humor? But then at the same time... to the general audience... that scene plays as adorable and that the Porgs get through to Chewie and he's changed and feels bad. I'd even argue that the same duality exists in the controversial opening lines with Poe and Hux but for a different reason. Some saw it as too meta for them but the reason for me that it can be that is because his entire crew is also listening in and laughing and desperate for a pick me up given the dire situation they're in. So, he's trying to be funny for them and to boost his troop's morale in exactly the same way Hux is proclaiming that there will be no surrender and grandstanding himelf. Hux is doing that for the people who are hearing his communications and in that room as well. They're both grandstanding for their crews.

    That kind of attention to detail in perspective is all over his script. The beats work for general audiences who may be coming to Star Wars potentially for the first time but then he's also keenly aware of the advanced audience's expectations and knowledge of tropes and plays with us, too. So many people around here were in the Spoiler forums and we spoiled many of the biggest surprises and knew of a lot of the setups well in advance but I think a lot of others who didn't had the rug pulled out from them in a good way based on his awareness of what many expected. It works on both levels. For people who don't know the tropes or beats as well and for those who do and expect them to play out the exact same way.

    And the themes he's exploring are both strong enough in their setup, execution and eventual resolution to function at the surface level, and are universal enough to work just fine that way, but others can zoom out even further and apply all sorts of concepts to the film beyond that. Including how it's somehow an examination of fandom within the Star Wars world itself. There's a great video that's been shown on this forum already where one fan in particular really breaks down why he sees it as an ode to fandom. I think he's gone too far down the rabbit hole personally but his head cannon works well enough and so will others. Some audience members who grew up in the 1980s were raised on testosterone-fueled macho mindsets always winning out and he plays with that to a certain extent as well. We lack compassion, as fans, for our heroes in crisis. We tend to want our heroes to fight, not struggle with their emotions or weaknesses. We want them to perform for us like circus apes a lot of the time but sometimes they need saving, too. Some could even read into it as a look at how we, as a society, tend to turn a blind eye toward veterans once the Purple Hearts have been awarded and their heroic stories have been told, and the Wars have ended. We want to hear of their heroics. We don't want to hear of how the things they went through possibly set them up to fail or struggle later on in life.

    Johnson crafted a more emotional and faith/teacher-driven story arc around Luke that shares some similarities to that of Batman in the Dark Knight Rises and gave us more than just a simplistic charming advisor (though we might get that next in IX as a Force ghost). If we were only going to get one more film from Luke I'm glad it had a proper arc to it that made us think and that he was more than just becoming like Mr. Miyagi in the Karate Kid or something alone those lines. With that story and the question of how Rey and Luke would play off each other and develop in their own ways from where they are (even if it's Luke's initial reluctance helping to push her more toward Ben Solo) unfolding he juggles the Finn/Rose arc around finding purpose, and trying to impact the world in a positive way where possible (and a little of romance), The Snoke vs Kylo Ren vs Hux arc where those 3 are all playing off each other for their own ambitions, and the Poe "Always fight" versus the wiser female "Flight can help win wars too" arc. Each of which I enjoyed for different reasons. And beyond that he also works in little mini story arcs for Chewie having his own pets in the Porgs, and BB8 vs FO technology.

    There's the "life will find a way" aspect to the Crystal Critters in the end and the actual movement on the Falcon at the end. There's messages about how easily failure can eat us apart, mislead us and unlock our worst characteristics while masking our biggest strengths if we're not careful. There's messages about parenting and teaching only being able to take students/kids so far and how they eventually become their own people and choose their own paths. There's messages about repressing pain in one's past or coming to terms with it and facing it head on in the effort to heal and become stronger. There's messages about opposites attracting and relationships built on bonding over shared pain not necessarily being the best starting points. Messages about how seeing the best in people always and being an eternal optimist can help overcome pain but can also be manipulated and become a weakness. Messages about how where you came from or who you were born from doesn't have to define you. The film does a great job of presenting the Dark Side as one that offers easier solutions to complex problems, including killing the past entirely in order to move forward. While the Light side embraces and showcases the notion that by not dealing with the painful past head on, and not coming to terms with your problems, you'll simply be living in your own purgatory and not living up to your potential either. The only way forward and to become the most powerful you can be is to realize your mistake, or accept the pain in your past, and learn from it and move forward. It's all of these ideas and honestly more. And that's why it's a great film for a lot of people.
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2018
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  13. Dukeleto69

    Dukeleto69 Jedi Knight star 2

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    Dec 27, 2017
    @Ender_and_Bean I wont quote because it takes forever on iPad to delete the bits that aren't relevant but wanted to pick up on the humour thing because I think this was a real mixed bag and in some cases RJ got it completely wrong and personally I wish he hadn't played to the multiplex popcorn munching casual audience. You gave two examples that perfectly illustrate my mixed feelings about the use of humour in TLJ...

    The Porg roasting scene - I found that funny and liked it. For me it totally worked "in-universe" because it was perfectly plausible that Chewie is a meat eating kind of guy who likely would have roasted a Porg. It was cute but contextually fitted even with the lip wobble Porg watching (cute funny in the same way as R2 falling off the X Wing into the mud on Degobah for example).

    Poe having Hux on hold - I hated, I mean REALLY HATED that scene. It totally was not "in-universe". It was very clearly a reference that a 21st century audience would get but made no sense within the context of the Star Wars universe. It was too much of a knowing nod to the audience for the sake of a cheap laugh. It also completely undermined Hux (who is one of the three main antagonists) to the point where he is now a joke and no threat at all. It completely took me out of the movie and broke that movie magic/suspense of belief that a sci fi/fantasy film requires...IMO!

    And before anyone starts posting clips of Han Solo speaking into the intercom on the Death Star "I'm fine, how are you?" Or as they are flying towards Bespin... No those are not the same at all because both of those work "in-universe".
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2018
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  14. Satipo

    Satipo Force Ghost star 7

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    Mar 29, 2014
    While I get the dislike for that scene and it's one of the things I would tweak, in what way does it not work in-universe?
     
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  15. Ender_and_Bean

    Ender_and_Bean Chosen One star 6

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    May 19, 2002
    I'm aware of the differences in perception between those two comedic moments and that's why I wanted to show how I like how they work for different people in different ways.

    I do see them as the spiritual successor and update to concepts we'd seen explored in Han's "I'm fine, how are you?" moment and also, "I'm trying to reach Lando Calrissian" moments and to a lesser extent the video phone message system setup in RO. But beyond that... it's imperative to see that Poe is trying to inspire his troops. So many people seemed to lose sight of this aspect and found it too much like Poe making a joke for only himself. It's clearly established that everyone is listening to his communications throughout this. Leia can even hear BB8 say, "I've got a bad feeling about this." Everyone is listening to what Poe's going to do and he knows it and uses the moment to inspire his troops morale. This is a guy who wise-cracked, "Who talks first?" in interrogration already on-screen so it fits his persona just fine and because he knows his crew is listening it makes sense that he's grandstanding in his own way the same way Hux is trying to do the same for his crew. This is the aspect people lose sight of when focusing so much on the joke itself. It feels more meta and out of universe primarily because we have never heard a character in Star Wars grandstand for his crew over an intercom before. It's also been 30 years in universe for this property and it's only logical that some of the younger crews would have a slightly difference sense of humor than people their parent's age.

    So, in summary:

    1) We have seen sort of broken telephone before with Han trying to reach Lando heading into Bespin.

    "No, listen... I'm trying to reach Lando Calrissian!"

    (Listens to the other side)

    Whoa!

    (Listens to the other side)

    Wait a minute! Let me explain!

    (Han gets put on hold)

    INTERCOM VOICE: You will not deviate from your present course.

    (Han on hold again)

    THREEPIO: Rather touchy, aren't they?

    LEIA: I thought you knew this person.

    Chewie barks and growls at his boss.

    HAN: (to Chewie) Well, that was a long time ago. I'm sure he's forgotten about that.

    INTERCOM VOICE: Permission granted to land on PlatformThree-two-seven.

    HAN: (into transmitter) Thank you.

    Angry, Han snaps off the intercom. Chewie looks at him and grunts. Han turns to the worried princess and her droid.

    HAN: There's nothing to worry about. We go way back, Lando and me.


    2) We have seen Han use an intercom system to pretend and stall for humor before.

    3) We have seen other telephone system concepts via RO where "holding" would be necessary.

    4) It's established that his own crew is listening so it makes sense he'd be more cheeky to inspire them.

    5) It's been 30 years in-universe so why wouldn't the next generation have some of their own sayings or humor?
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2018
  16. Dukeleto69

    Dukeleto69 Jedi Knight star 2

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    Dec 27, 2017
    @Satipo oh man come on really!? It is sooooo obviously a reference to the real world. How many of us have phoned a call centre and been on hold? It is part of OUR real lives but nothing we have ever seen or read about the Star Wars universe indicates that those people phone call centres and get put on hold. It simply doesn't fit with the fantasy setting.
     
  17. Satipo

    Satipo Force Ghost star 7

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    Mar 29, 2014
    My point was more, why can't people hold in the GFFA?

    I would have cut it too, but I really don't see how it's that different. Yes, SW is fantasy, but it's not all fantasy, and part o the charm has been that a lot of the little details feel everyday in the same way our own lives do (not exactly the same, but vaguely recognisable). I don't think it is all that different from Han in the DS, other than we've had 40 years not even notice it.

    I can totally see why they went with it, thinking - This is no different from the Han stuff - and I would say this - if Han Solo was delivering the exact same lines, I don't think anyone would bat an eyelid.
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2018
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  18. Dukeleto69

    Dukeleto69 Jedi Knight star 2

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    Dec 27, 2017
    Well it all comes down to opinion and it is cool that you liked it or felt that it worked in universe. I strongly feel it did not. I don't go to see a Star Wars films to have my suspended belief interrupted by what I believe was an attempt at a cheap laugh using a real world reference. For me it really did not work and reminded me I was watching a film.

    I think it is symptomatic of a trend in a lot of Hollywood blockbusters these days where the studios and film makers are responding to the power of the Internet and fandom and acknowledging that "we know this is all a bit silly, you know having superheroes or space battles etc, but hey enjoy the ride guys". It's this knowing nod to the audience which, in my opinion, undermines the films.

    We know this isn't real. We know Star Wars is a science fantasy film BUT for a couple of hours it is nice to enjoy a bit of pure escapism from the real world and be taken on a fantastic journey. All of Lucas' films did that (I am not for one minute suggesting they were perfect). The humour in them all worked in universe. In fact TFA did it too. It all worked fine. TLJ pushes the real world references too much (for me). I don't want knowing nods to the audience. But that's just my preference!

    Ha you just edited your post as I typed so now I need to edit mine...

    The dialogue you quote from TESB totally works in universe. You are taking me too literally with the "on hold" bit. I was calling it that to describe it. The issue is that Poe messes with Hux and treats him like his bitch! He pretends to be on hold. That is the kind of joke that feels so familiar and so 21st century. The dialogue in TESB is not the same IMO and does not undermine one of the key characters to an extent that they are no longer a viable villain/antagonist in the film.

    @Satipo but of course it is ALL fantasy! This isn't Goodfellas or Dunkirk. Star Wars is PURE fantasy in the same way LOTR is just with lasers and space ships!
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2018
  19. Satipo

    Satipo Force Ghost star 7

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    Mar 29, 2014
    I dunno - SW has always had a pretty corny sense of humour. When it's good, it's great, when it stumbles, it can be lame. I just don't think it's that different.

    It's not a ditch I'm going to die in though. I'd cut it myself. Not because it feels too modern, but because I think I'd like one laugh or two less in that moment. Keep the stalling, losing a beat within it.
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2018
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  20. Dukeleto69

    Dukeleto69 Jedi Knight star 2

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    Dec 27, 2017
    Corny yes but it worked in universe. If it was just me saying it then it would say more about me than the film but it appears plenty of people found the humour in TLJ "wrong" and not in keeping with the other 8 films that have been released so far.

    I think RJ could have had Poe achieve the same objective (inspiring the Resistance troops) without making an obvious real world reference and having a knowing nod to the audience.
     
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  21. Satipo

    Satipo Force Ghost star 7

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    Mar 29, 2014
    I guess my point is, I disagree that it doesn't work in-universe. I agree I'd cut it (not all of it, just dial it back a little). Also, yes people said they found the humour wrong in TLJ in parts, sure. But I know others who think it's very funny. I'm somewhere in the middle. It always made me smile, I'm not sure I always wanted to be smiling. Something like Slowen-Lo's dopey accent bugs me way more and drags me out of the film more. Likewise the little drunk alien in the casino.

    BTW - if you want to know where my SW humour tolerance bar is set, I have zero problem with Threepio's awful punnery in AOTC either ;)
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2018
  22. Dukeleto69

    Dukeleto69 Jedi Knight star 2

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    Dec 27, 2017
    That's cool if it works for you but it really doesn't for me. It irritates me immensely.

    The fact it was right at the beginning also set an uncomfortable tone for the rest of the movie for me the first time I saw it. I was just like "oh oh here we go, a film full of knowing nods"

    Let me ask this... Are you totally comfortable as well in how it impacts on the character of Hux? Following that scene is he, in your opinion, still a viable antagonist? Does he still have any credibility as the now number two villain?
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2018
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  23. Satipo

    Satipo Force Ghost star 7

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    Mar 29, 2014
    Yeah, sure, I'm not dissing that.

    For me, it's on the list of things "not worth the hassle so I'd tweak if only to stop people griping about them"

    The Ponda Baba cameo in R1 and Han's trick shot in TFA have the similar "why would you do that?" effect on me.
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2018
  24. AhsokaSolo

    AhsokaSolo Force Ghost star 7

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    Dec 23, 2015
    I like SW humor but there’s a wrong way to do humor. Unless you’re making GotG, humor should not be used to destroy dramatic tension. Especially in SW, we should feel the stakes. We should feel the emotion. These things should be portrayed authentically through the characters, not brushed aside with a totally forgettable (or not-forgettable in a bad way) joke.
     
  25. Ender_and_Bean

    Ender_and_Bean Chosen One star 6

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    May 19, 2002
    To me it was nowhere near the same degree as this:



    Or even honestly this line

    [youtube]

    or

    [youtube]

    or C3PO's

    "This is such a drag" line or "Help, I've fallen and I can't get up," which is a reference to a famous commercial.

    Both of which feel more like real world references to me.

    The first is a clear play on Earth's play by play and color commentator routine and even the saying is straight out of John Madden Football. The second, since it's from the OT will be argued from here on out because nothing in the OT could possibly be criticized for the same thing, but it's not as though carpets seem particularly common in the Star Wars universe so the joke feels more tailored toward the audience watching than anything else. Obi-Wan's line feels like a dad talking to his children about the oven while out in the car. C3PO's pun doesn't really make sense without the Earth reference of people saying that since we don't hear anyone else say that in universe. The Help I've fallen and can't get up is clearly this commercial:



    So, I don't find Poe trying to lift the spirits up for his military, who he knows are listening, as out of character or weird personally. It would seem weirder if he was cracking wise like that for nobody's amusement but BB8's exclusively but since he knows his crew is listening... I think he knows it will make a great story back on the Raddus later.
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2018
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