ST Rian Johnson to write and direct Episode VIII (and also new SW Trilogy - see page 194)

If you say so.

 

You're saying that I'm generalising about people that don't like TLJ when I'm not.

It is true that some posters continually back up their posts with "so many people unhappy" "such a backlash" etc, so they are, in fact, generalising themselves. Not all people who dislike TLJ do that of course. In fact very many of them don't ever post on the internet about it. But if those that do continually talk up the volume of dissension in support of their position, then they are not talking about people who don't post their negativity on the internet are they?

On the other hand, I have never read anything that praises TLJ on the basis of their racist or sexist views. So the idea that people are consciously or unwittingly augmenting their position with the weight provided by a sexist/racist response is ludicrous.

 

Did you read the article? “Trolls” is only used in the title. The content doesn’t differentiate trolls from other critics, it differentiates “people who love the movie” and “people who hate it”, which he stretches out to meaning “trolls”. The whole point of the article is not to talk about bullying itself, or the trolls themselves, but to whine about Star Wars fans who hate the movie and make vapid generalizations in the process, using KMT’s tragic incident as well as Solo’ BO as examples for his wtf conclusion that the problem of SW is the fans, who hate the movies, and they hate the movies because they want nostalgia.

That’s why said this article takes the cake when it comes to dubious journalism and bias take on a subject. The entire thing is one giant fallacious argument, and articles like only add insult to injury.

And this, to me, is particularly noticeable in the American press. I have written a few times about my observation on the way American media reports things vs the Japanese media, here is one post of mine I could find if you’re interested. I’m not offended by it, I’m just occasionally amused, occasionally irritated by it.


But to me, the more you generalize people, or lump a group of fans into the category of “extremely negative and horrible people who bully”, the more you are contributing to a larger problem that is going in internet culture, particularly in the English-speaking one.

I’m going to use the Steven Universe as an example to illustrate my point. In 2016 (I think?), a select group of extreme and violent “SJW” fans of this lovely cartoon engaged on extreme bullying of a fanartist for not being very PC with her drawings, to the point of driving her to attempt suicide. You can read about the short version of it here (I warn you that some of the comments posted here will make you sick and angry at mankind). I used the term SJW here because technically that was the root of the hate, though I also put in under quotation marks because I believe the majority of people who identify as SJWs or fight for social justice are not out there doing these vile things (I myself would identify as an SJW, probably, I don’t know, I’m still learning these terms).

If you’re like me and never heard of this incident before, then it’s probably because the main entertainment media outlets you follow did not report it, or at least did not shed a light in it in the way they are doing with KMT’s bullying.

But that is not the reason why I’m bringing this up. The reason why is because I only found out about this is due some of the youtubers and bloggers I follow who once have either declared to be feminists or at least talked about feminist issues I agreed with, suddenly started using the term “SJW” with vicious hatred, and I couldn’t understand why. At first, I chalked it up to the alt-right tainting critical discourse with their offensive terms and people just being extremely angry about being vilified by the press in general, who they call “SJW” because that’s what other youtubers say it is, and while that might be still part of the problem, some have used the Steven Universe example (among others which I forget now) which is what prompted me to search about it. Basically, the term SJW gained a very negative connection and started being used by even progressive minds as way to generalize everything from extreme behavior to terrible storytelling, because of a few rotten apples (also because YouTube says so).


My point is, I see no difference between what media articles like this one who lump those who hated TLJ into the category of extreme bullies and racist trolls, and people on Youtube or other social media who lump SJWs into the same category of extremists (except alt-righters who are, well, a problematic category of their own and do their job to perpetuate this negativity). You cannot address a problem by stooping to the level of the problem-makers. You cannot address bullying or Solo BO failure or extreme behavior by a few by resorting to micro-aggressions and ignorant generalization. You're only adding fuel to the fire.


And I think this type of behavior and discourse is contributing to the toxicity and divisionism in the fandom. It’s this relentless partaking in “false logic” and generalizations that leads to finger-pointing and ill-veiled attempts at accusing people who hated the movie as The Problem (behavior perpetuated by members of these forums), as well as frustrated fans accusing “Disney shills” and others as also The Problem (behavior also perpetuated by members of these forums).

And then it becomes an issue of “us vs them”, a strong divisionism which articles like the Hollywood Reporter feed on and perpetuate.

The ones who understand the bold and needed decisions in TLJ vs the haters who are against social justice and only want nostalgia.

The ones who understand SW and good storytelling vs the apologists

The reasonable fans vs the toxic fanboys

The reasonable critics vs the SJWs

You can frame this however you like, but to me, any article, or any criticism, that attempts to lump people into categories and make fans The Problem, is missing the forest for the trees. As I said, you cannot address online toxic behavior by partaking on vapid generalization and micro-aggression. You are only making the problem worse.


I put earlier a link to a previous post of mine about the general difference (from my observation) between the Japanese press and the American press, but I also want to make a brief remake on the fandom in general. I don’t see the same type of vitriolic discourse and extreme divisionism or hatred for the franchise/KK or hatred for the fans in Japanese fandom (not that I go deep into the forums and I stay away from the wretched hive of scum and villainy that 2ch can be; I just read the comments in articles, twitter and blogs). And you know what? I think it helps a lot that the press has remained objective and unbiased, and not feeding this nonsense or engaging on finger-pointing.

 

That's cool @anakinfansince1983 If I'm referring to some people doing something and you're not doing it then it's not in reference to you or your opinions.

The idea that LFL will/should move to placate or already have taken some action in light of "so many" etc being unhappy is a popular claim on these forums.

 

I wouldn't know. I liked R1 well enough, but never really engaged in the conversation. And I don't like the PT at all, but I have never once pitched a fit in a single post, let alone six months of posts about how awful the prequel trilogy is. Come to think of it, there's a good chance I never posted in the PT thread (too lazy to check, but pretty sure I didn't.)

If something doesn't pique my attention or it's something I can't stand, I don't engage. Shocking concept, I know.

 

Each to their own, but I'm still complaining about the PT and it's been nearly 20 years.

The reality with TLJ is that this movie is as divisive as the prequels were amongst the fandom, the dislike and critical debate for the movie is not just going to disappear overnight.

I understand that people love the movie, but people also loved TPM and have had to put up with 20 years of ridicule about it.

 

Hello again. We are now a couple of months later, so I was wondering if you know if there is more evidence to say it’s definitely happening? I don’t mean a blog item somewhere but real inside news.

I don’t know if the fanboy comment is at me, but I hope not. I’m asking a well meant question. I’m not angry, but really disappointed.

I didn’t like TLJ and the whole thing’s timing looked a bit contrived. And without concrete news, it still does.

 

I don’t think that anyone is actually arguing that the story shouldn’t have moved on to the next generation. We were all given Rey/Kylo/Poe/Finn in the buildup and we accepted that this is the story of those characters. The thing is, Luke is reduced to basically not even being the character we knew in a way that’s so jarring that it doesn’t line up. It’s one thing to put Luke in the backseat, that’s a given as he should now be the Obi-Wan/Yoda style mentor, but he can’t even be that. They have to make him an apathetic loafer because they’re afraid that if he’s a positive force in the move in any way that it’ll make Rey look bad, which pretty much says it all as far as their faith in the Rey character standing on her own.

There’s some jerk fans out there, obviously, but a lot of the problems lie in the writing. If you can’t write characters that stand on their own, you have to make the established characters look like crap, and that says more about the people in charge than anyone else.

 

The Rian Johnson trilogy is still in development and that’s it. Development doesn’t mean anything in Hollywood except it may happen. Once it stays shooting the films will happen. I can’t see their being any confirmation till after Episode IX or you will hear Rian is doing a stand-alone. If 9 makes under a billion they will not green light a RJ trilogy. They may still give him a movie to show what he can do and see if fans are on board with it before IX but giving him a trilogy that could cost them 200mil + per movie I can’t see till they gage how TLJ has affected interest in IX

 

Any evidence to the contrary?

 

Thanks for that detailed reply. Personally I hope we hear no more about it regardless of IXs performance.

 

Sadly not!!

 

Disney will never admit TLJ hurt the SW brand/IP. That's why they won't cancel Johnson's trilogy at this moment. If they did it would be an admission of guilt. It's all a PR move. Especially, with them trying to acquire Fox. Comcast has a real shot of taking Fox away from Disney.

 

I’m going to give everyone the benefit of the doubt here & not assume anything. If you were to set aside your biggest issues with TLJ related to choices Johnson made with characters you liked & felt like you knew and had different ideas for, and your biggest issues with mystery box solutions he decided on that you are not keen on, can you on any level appreciate the talent that critics and some of his fans do see for the potential of new films that involve brand new characters and a timeline fully removed from anything we’ve known before?

In the interest of civility and discussion and giving someone a second chance do you really see no talent at all? Do you really think that the critics and fans who liked Brick, Looper, his Breaking Bad episodes, and even those who see TLJ differently than you have been pulled into respecting someone without any talent for reasons that don’t make any sense to you? That he is truly irredeemable & incapable of making any new Star Wars films that may interest you based on his past works? Genuinely curious who thinks he’s a total hack here who can’t possibly do better than TLJ based on his resume and TLJ itself.

 

Brick made $3.9 million. I know two people that have seen it, and they hated it. Looper made $176 million. I know nobody that's seen it. I've never watched a single Breaking Bad episode. I'm sure fans of that series thought RJ's episode was wonderful, but I have no point of reference. TLJ is the only RJ material I have ever seen. I know that RJ having some moderately well liked stuff under his belt doesn't automatically mean that everything he does is quality. I quite liked at least three or four seasons of Buffy the Vampire Slayer. That doesn't mean I think Age of Ultron is wonderful and people that don't like it have something wrong about Joss Whedon's success with Buffy.

I think RJ's talent is much more in his direction. There are some really, really beautiful shots and concepts in TLJ that I can't only credit the cinematographer. I think he is really good with actors also. TLJ is MH's best performance imho.

BUT I think SW is about the story, the fairy tale. In that, I think TLJ demonstrates that for my taste, RJ doesn't get it. Obviously others disagree and that's fine, but it does mean that for me, I do not plan to spend money on another SW movie written by RJ. I could be excited to see RJ direct a SW movie written by someone else though.

 

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

 

I don't really see any particular talent, no.

I don't think people have been "pulled into respecting" anyone, as I'm not paranoid. I assume people who respect Rian's abilities respect them naturally. I don't need their respect for him to make sense to me, as I don't care at all. His reputation among critics and fans has no meaning to me.

I think it's unlikely that he would make a Star Wars movie I like. Not impossible, but unlikely.

 

I believe Rian Johnson is a good director. He's not a great screenwriter though. He's like Ridley Scott. He's only as good as the script.

 

I think it’s very fair to consider his directing talent (especially with actors) as superior to his screenwriting. I agree with you. Spielberg didn’t write often. Johnson’s storyboarding talent & ability to conceive a sequence visually are top tier IMO. Even his small and intimate scenes have a vibrancy to them. Brick was be same way as a noir.

I think he’s an 88 out of 100 visual director of blockbuster filmmaking with all aspects of directing considered (Storyboarding, directing actors, working with creature teams, approving concepts) and probably more of a 70 out of 100 writer. Good enough as a writer that he’d be a working writer if that’s all he knew how to do but he’d be in that Chris Teirro range if that was his specialty. His directing is of a higher caliber than that and I don’t honestly think he’s scratched the surface of his talent there yet.

 

@Solo88

Disney and Fox just agreed to a new deal. Comcast is out:

https://www.wsj.com/articles/fox-disney-announce-new-deal-1529496937

And the clock will move quickly on this because my understanding the anti-trust law hurdles have pretty much all been cleared.

As for Johnson, I think his trilogy is in jeporady now. The Star Wars brand name has taken a hit and Disney simply might not want to take a risk on someone who has a very toxic name in many Star Wars circles.

 

While this may be possible it’s also important to consider the following questions:

1) Do the less invested who make up a larger piece of the box office pie, and who weren’t interested in Solo in theatres, feel the same way? Or is the biggest divides among the most portions of hardcore fandom primarily and along highly partisan lines for those who let that impact their ability to enjoy fiction?

2) After a film (Solo) aimed more so at hardcore fans than casuals had Star Trek numbers are they as passionate about pleasing the hardcore fans as before?

3) After being burned twice with new directors they don’t know that well getting in over their heads & needing rescue & additional spending will they potentially overvalue Johnson’s combination of coming in on time and as planned, ability to work with the crews & keep secrets, ability to secure critical acclaim & get the most money knowing that JJ won’t be available for everything?

4) Will they chalk up more of his missteps to age and learning on a project this size & assume that he might do better a second time starting from scratch?

5) Does the narrative of the far right hating Star Wars so much that even JJ has mentioned it prove that internally they are downplaying the significance of the RT audience score & chalking it up more to politics than they probably should?

You might not like Johnson and that’s fine but these questions may be just as valid as yours potentially for them.