1. cbagmjg Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 12, 2006
    star 3

    I think he prefers TP because of all the bright & shiny colors!
  2. ezekiel22x Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 9, 2002
    star 5
    For most of ESB the Han/Leia dynamic reminds me of something out of a Jennifer Aniston movie.
    The-Eternal-Hero likes this.
  3. The-Eternal-Hero Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 3, 2012
    star 4
    ESB has the strongest story because its the one that really gets to the heart of the characters , really explores what they want , what their conflicts are , conflict makes drama , and I'm talking about personal conflict here . The audience fell in love with the characters in SW but its ESB that really makes them vastly more interesting and 3 dimensional . Luke wants to be a hero but he finds that choosing the right path isn't so easy , Vader isn't just a henchman , he has a very personal agenda , Han and Leia's romance is so wonderfully realised , it packs a real emotional punch (unlike the dreary unconvincing romance in the PT) , Luke and Vader's relationship becomes mythological and deeply psychological .

    And the movie enhances all that , the imagery and mood and lighting , ESB has the most dreamlike qualities , its no mistake that characters are constantly finding themselves in caves and in Hades like smoke-filled arenas , and giants trying to swallow them .
    Lucas was just as big on the motifs of fairytales and their meanings as he was on historical references .

    Kershner worked hard on this dramatic aspect , re-working dialogue and spending long hours getting the look and feel right , because this is what matters in the 2nd act .[/quote]


    I think he prefers TP because of all the bright & shiny colors![/quote]

    ESB never gets to the "heart" of any of its characters. At the end of the film the only new thing we know about any of them is that Vader is Luke's father and Han used to know Lando. All of the development with Luke happens in the next film. What is motivating Lando? We are free to infer it from his actions but there is absolutely no exploration of that at all. How is Leia coping with the loss of her home and family? We never find out. Why isn't she open to having a romantic fling, why is she so against it? Harrison Ford's no dog and she'd have him wrapped around her little finger. We never find out. What new do we learn about the Force? Almost nothing - you can see the future but it is always in motion, not much else that isn't in the first film. What else does the Empire do besides chase Rebels? We never find out, we only ever see the military. Why would anyone want to be assigned to Vader's ship if he's always killing officers? There's not even a scene, as in ANH, of two troopers chatting about a new model of starship they're excited about, we never see anything but the surface, and that is repeated over and again: Han chases Leia she runs away, Vader chokes someone, spaceship chase: step and repeat. How is the mythology deepened? Do we discover more about the nature & workings of the Force? No, we only hear Yoda's advice. The history of the Jedi, the nature of the Sith, the fall of the Old Republic? Nothing. Zip. Zero.

    At least TPM has color. Lucas understands images in a way that is unmatched in cinema, and I do prefer it over ESB, a solid, entertaining, mainstream family movie of its time, on par with "The Wrath of Khan" and other movies like that.
  4. Cantina Bassist Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2012
    star 2
    All of the aspects you are claiming don't exist in Empire are either there, but done in a subtle, entertaining fashion, or not shown on screen b/c it would be boring. The character growth is there, it's just not clumsily spoonfed to us like it is in the prequels. I remember someone saying once about the PT that Lucas won't imply a theme if he can't stuff it into his characters' mouths. An accurate statement to my mind.
    FinleySlade likes this.
  5. cbagmjg Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 12, 2006
    star 3
    What makes the Phantom Menace so special ? And don't say George Lucas's visual style, because that alone far from makes TPM better than ESB. ESB had...
    1.Luke using the force to escape from the wampa creature.
    2.The snow battle on Hoth (Which is more enjoyable than the end battle in TPM)
    3.Yoda's introduction on Dagobah (Much funnier than anything Jar Jar did & had more
    of a point than just being annoying)
    4.Han & Leia's flirtatious banter (Better than the forced, cringe-worthy dialogue than
    Annie & Padme put us through)
    5.Had the giant spaceworm.
    6.It introduced Lando Calrissian & BOBA F****IN FETT!
    7.Introduced carbonite into the Star Wars universe
    8.Introduced Force ghost Obi-Wan Kenobi
    9.Has one of the biggest bomb shells in movie history
    10.A lightsaber fight thats more than just choreographed stunt work
    11. The bad guy wins, which was not that common at the time
    12. And some of the most iconic dialogue in movie history
    A. Luke I am your father
    B. Do or do not. There is no try
    C. Never tell me the odds
    D. I love you. I know
    E. Aw, cannot get your ship out
    F. That is why you fail
    G. No, there is another
    H. The force is strong with you young Skywalker.
    But you are not a jedi yet

    But I guess Lucas's greatest achievement in cinema is his visual style from the PT.
    That's much more interesting than anything ESB can muster.
    Last edited by cbagmjg, Nov 9, 2012
    Heero_Yuy likes this.
  6. G-FETT Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 10, 2001
    star 7
    ESB is my favourite (along with ROTS) but I know a couple of people that find it flat, dull and boring and don't think the story matches either ANH or ROTJ. Sure its a minority view, but its out there and interestingly a lot of the criticisms The Eternal Hero has picked out were highlighted by the likes of Pauline Kael in ESB original 1980 reviews.
    Last edited by G-FETT, Nov 9, 2012
  7. Cantina Bassist Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2012
    star 2
    Plagiarism! As I suspected!
  8. G-FETT Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 10, 2001
    star 7
    Or perhaps they just both happen to dislike the same things about Empire Strikes Back? Like I say, I know a couple of people personally that don't rate the movie.
    Last edited by G-FETT, Nov 9, 2012
  9. -NaTaLie- Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2001
    star 4
    I like TESB but I think it's definitely overrated by the fans. It might have the best acting/dialogues (by Star Wars standards, which a pretty low anyway) but it also lacks in some other departments (plot and continuity, namely).
    Last edited by -NaTaLie-, Nov 9, 2012
  10. Cantina Bassist Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2012
    star 2
  11. The-Eternal-Hero Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 3, 2012
    star 4
    I didn't say it was his greatest achievement, I just don't think ESB is a more interesting SW movie.Your liking of certain lines doesn't make them good.

    4.Han & Leia's flirtatious banter (Better than the forced, cringe-worthy dialogue than
    Annie & Padme put us through)
    5.Had the giant spaceworm.

    Both are terrible. Kasdan's sub Howard Hawks pastiche dialogue does nothing to enliven their bland, boring flirtation. The space worm is one the things I like least in all of SW. Boring scenes inside the worm, and then that stinking sock puppet. Terrible.

    6.It introduced Lando Calrissian & BOBA F****IN FETT!

    I like Lando, Billy Dee is one of the best things in the movie. However, he's hardly in it. Boba Fett is completely useless in both movies. He looks cool, that's about it. There's nothing interesting about that character. He doesn't even capture Han, he has him handed over to him by the Empire. He gets killed right away in RotJ. The only interesting things about that character come from the PT & TCW.

    I don't think "Never tell me the odds" is any better or worse than "There's always a bigger fish". The writing is about the same, with small flourishes that Kasdan could provide as a better writer than George. Overall the style & content are consistent. Kurosawa wrote action movies and the dialogue is infinitely superior to what's in SW. There are countless westerns and war movies with better dialogue. That doesn't devalue SW (although some believe it does) because there's no objective scale. We give SW a break because it is done in a certain style and we understand that that imposes certain limitations. I wonder how you'd like some film snob insisting that ESB is crap because it's not as well written as any number of classic adventure movies?

    I didn't say it was a bad movie. It's just generic and bland looking, overrated, and the least interesting SW movie to my tastes. If you can't appreciate what I do, that doesn't make one of us right or wrong. But I'm sick to death about hearing how ESb is the "perfect" and "best" SW movie. It's nowhere near as good as the original, nowhere near as entertaining or character/story driven as RotJ, and nowhere near as interesting as the PT in terms of techniques, style, world building and mythmaking. And your list pretty much sums up every single good part in the movie (even stretching a little and inserting things that are purely your taste and opinion) - pretty thin on the ground if you ask me.
  12. Chaos123x Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2012
    star 2
    Rick was the driving force behind Jar Jar Binks.
  13. darksideyesplease Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 12, 2005
    star 4
    One of the main things I remember about Rick was him saying he wanted the R2 scenes in the beginning of ROTS to be taken out and how he was mistaken on that. Other than that, I have no overwhelming opinion on him, good or bad. Hope he has a good retirement or if he decides to keep working, has a good time in that.

    As far as the other discussion. Call me crazy or a fanboy. But I actually just like all the Star Wars movies. Sure, I have my own list of 1 to 6.

    One thing, I think all of the OT movies opening scenes are too long. In that I mean, maybe ANH gets a pass on this because you have to setup the whole Star Wars universe to the fans. But imho the opening Hoth sequence and the Jabba's palace scenes are just a little too long for my taste. They aren't bad scenes, just think they run a little long.

    I guess I like analyzing movies to a certain extent but sometimes when you think too much about it, (at least for me) it ruins the mystery and in turn ruins some of the entertainment value. The whole PT bashing thing is so old though, it doesn't even effect me at all anymore. I understand Star Wars is very important to a lot of people... myself included (it's how I met my wife) it's either you like a movie or you don't. At least that's how I feel about it. I just don't understand how some people can be so negative for so long about one particular subject. That's just a mystery that I'll never be able to unwrap for myself. I guess it's the same way some people love to brew up drama in real life and always have issues. While I just prefer things to be a little quieter.
    sidious1000, -NaTaLie- and G-FETT like this.
  14. PJock Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 21, 2012
    Rick was fired. First thing Kathy did was cut the dead weight. Not a tear was shed at the Ranch.

    "It's so dense, every single image has so many things going on." Rick McCallum (1:22)

    Last edited by PJock, Nov 21, 2012
  15. Saurion-Fett Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 3, 2001
    star 4
    Sorry I always thought of Rick as Georges yes man....didnt have the balls to tell George where he was going wrong.
    LANDO_ROCKS likes this.
  16. DarthMateous Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 1, 2002
    star 4
    McCallum was definitely a "yes man".
  17. VonDan Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Oct 4, 2012
    star 1
  18. Saurion-Fett Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 3, 2001
    star 4
    for what its worth I dont think "RIck" should be allowed to continue to waste oxygen that productive human beings could be using.


    And ESB rules
    Last edited by Saurion-Fett, Nov 21, 2012
  19. The-Eternal-Hero Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 3, 2012
    star 4
    Canned fanboy vitriol and shouting that something "rules"...this is why ESB fans fail to impress me.
    LawJedi likes this.
  20. Lars_Muul Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 2000
    star 6
    New era, new constellations. I love what George and Rick did with the first trilogy and I'll look back on those days with a deep sense of nostalgia, but it's time to let go. Those movies will live for many years to come, but now, it's all about the future. The third trilogy is in the making and it's only natural that some of those who were involved in the second one return to team up for this one (as seems to be the case).
    Rick is of the George era. That era is now over.
    Care to back that up?





    "It is the past you see"
    /LM
    Billy_Dee_Binks likes this.
  21. ezekiel22x Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 9, 2002
    star 5
    Donkey Kong Country > ESB
    -NaTaLie- likes this.
  22. -NaTaLie- Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2001
    star 4
    It rules because everyone says so. It's the fanboys' Internet. Differences in opinions are not allowed.
    The-Eternal-Hero and LawJedi like this.
  23. Saurion-Fett Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 3, 2001
    star 4
    The should make ESB a chapter in the Bible ,,,,,,,,ESB rules,,,,,,yeah......E S B....E S B.....
  24. DarthLowBudget Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 17, 2004
    star 5
    Wait, wait, wait, wait, people liking the PT more than ESB is really a thing? Jesus, people.
    Last edited by DarthLowBudget, Nov 21, 2012
    solojones likes this.
  25. smallpaul Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 15, 2001
    star 3
    Rick was fired. First thing Kathy did was cut the dead weight. Not a tear was shed at the Ranch.

    My insider source confirms this... and it's a great thing. Rick was a yes man and one of the many many problems with the PT. Things are looking great with the ST!!!
    Also, there is no hope for humanity if people actually think the PT is better than ESB.
    krtmd likes this.