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Senate Rise Up To The "Identity Politics" Thread

Discussion in 'Community' started by DANNASUK, Jul 6, 2018.

?

Identity Politics A Good Thing?

  1. Yes

    7 vote(s)
    22.6%
  2. No

    11 vote(s)
    35.5%
  3. Don't Know

    13 vote(s)
    41.9%
  1. crazyewok

    crazyewok Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Oct 27, 2017
    This^^^^^
    What about the poverty in white America?
    Remember the alienation of the rust belt by Obama put emperor ompa lumpa in charge.

    LGBT turning in to LGBTJKLVCXSAMH.......

    The 56 gender crap.

    The ridiculous concept of cultural appropriation.
     
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2018
  2. Lord Vivec

    Lord Vivec Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Apr 17, 2006
    Are you so threatened by people's gender identity and expression?
     
  3. crazyewok

    crazyewok Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Oct 27, 2017
    # 3 billion Alderaan wasn't enough.
     
    Moff Hylldar likes this.
  4. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    There is poverty in white America but it stems from different causes than much of the poverty in Americans of color.

    Being poor because you worked in a factory or other industry that was replaced by automation/shipped overseas is very different from being poor because as a child you lived in a poor neighborhood with crappy schools because your parents were redlined out of a better neighborhood, or because your college application and/or resume was sent to the bottom of a pile due to an “ethnic sounding name”, or because you were profiled unfairly by law enforcement/given a harsher sentence for a minor offense due to the color of your skin.

    I agree about the alienation of the Rust Belt but that wasn’t Obama, that was Clinton. Obama campaigned on bringing manufacturing back to the US, just as Sanders did.

    Also, Bill Clinton’s administration enacted some retraining programs after NAFTA passed but they were privatized and largely a farce. I agree that any future Presidential hopeful, Democrat or Republican, is going to have to address manufacturing job loss and ensuing white rural poverty, and address it in some way other than “blame the immigrant” or “blame those people overseas.”

    But that does not mean that unique situations of poverty faced by people of color—and single women, who are often underpaid and/or excluded from certain jobs due to lack of affordable childcare—cannot be simultaneously addressed.
     
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  5. Moff Hylldar

    Moff Hylldar Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Jun 5, 2018
    [face_laugh] The John Williams in your avatar is (was?) actually a Dutch-Surinamese TV host

     
  6. Darth Punk

    Darth Punk JCC Manager star 7 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 25, 2013
    Yes, and we love him
     
  7. Jabba-wocky

    Jabba-wocky Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    May 4, 2003
    That seems kind of bizarre. How are you deciding that it "limits their growth as a person?"

    I am, right now, listening to a gospel song. That is a uniquely African-American expression, with elements of the strains of Christianity introduced to slaves, the Biblical themes they found relevant expressing hope and resistance against what was for centuries an explicit and intentionally repressive police state, and compositional music elements more common in Africa than Europe.

    How is that fixating on oppression? If these means something to me, and others who were raised with the same, how is that “limiting as a person?” How is it less valid than auto workers also deciding they have common interests and experiences that make them want to associate?
     
  8. Ghost

    Ghost Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Oct 13, 2003
    I think a lot of people use different definitions, based on their prior experience.
     
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  9. Jabba-wocky

    Jabba-wocky Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    May 4, 2003
    I can understand that. But I mean to point that when we're talking about a topic like this, I think we should take a broad view that includes not only the negative dimensions of the phenomenon, but acknowledge that there are several expressions that are at worst neutral, if not outright positive as well.
     
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  10. Moff Hylldar

    Moff Hylldar Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Jun 5, 2018
    If I may take the liberty to pose an imho basic question in these matters: why would the fact that some demographic groups are worse off than others, entail a moral obligation of all members of society as a whole, to undo that? I am not convinced that doing that would lead to a better functioning society. It could, but imho it is not a self-evident truth. I haven't seen the notion challenged here though; y'all seem to take it for granted.

    E.g. those Quaker and Pennsylvania Dutch people seem to be doing well. They are not rich in the usual sense, but they are able to self-sustain. Should they be forced to 'feed' people who belong to demographic groups who do not so well?

    And, if my children have a better option to go to a good school and get a good job, than someone else's children, how could someone claim that I have a moral obligation to restrain my children in favor of someone else's children?
     
    gezvader28 likes this.
  11. Drac39

    Drac39 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 9, 2002
    I feel like so many people have different definitions of the term and thus it’s hard to even dissect it.

    Now it’s no more than a right wing buzz word meant to rile up People who think like Trump.

    It seems to me that at its base level “identity politics” isn’t really a set of actions to solve problems but rather just basically coming to an acknowledgement that America is a very hypocritical society that awards privilege to white men. Which yes is a very good thing
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2018
  12. Jabba-wocky

    Jabba-wocky Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    May 4, 2003
    This question has no real bearing on American society at all, or really any other human community. If for instance, you want to discuss African-Americans, you are a talking about a group of people that was forcibly enslaved, actively prevented from acquiring fundamental skills for thriving in society, were legally sanctioned as targets of abuse, locked out of social welfare programs that gave major material improvement to the standard of living of all other ethnic groups, prevented from competing in commerce for with whites, and by governmental standards literally had the definition of the "worst" and least insurable homes defined reflexively as wherever they lived, regardless to its actual quality. That's all just dealing with literal laws that were passed.

    Or again, consider the "Untouchable" caste in India. No one forced Indian society to be that way. It wasn't some law of nature about Homo sapiens that lived on the Indian subcontinent. A group of people went out of their way to treat another group of people like dirt, and built a whole structure of their society, encompassing law, religion, and even art, to reinforce this inferiority.

    In either case, to ask whether society has a "moral obligation" to undo this status is the height of stupidity. "Society" wasn't an innocent bystander. It pursued the denigration of these human beings as an explicit goal. Never mind that most philosophies and religions do nod towards some sort of duty to the less fortunate, even if for totally selfish reasons. We can't even get to that level of analysis. This obligation isn't some sort of gauzy, feel-good moral debate. It's just literal responsibility as an acknowledgement of causality. Yes, societies should have some accountability about the things that they do. I don't find that to be some mind-blowing precept.
     
  13. Moff Hylldar

    Moff Hylldar Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Jun 5, 2018
    I have no desire (nor time) to discuss heavy issues with dogmatists.
     
  14. Outsourced

    Outsourced Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 10, 2017
    Then the JCC probably isn't the place for you. We all love dogs here, and your anti-dog lover stance is going to put a lot of people off talking to you.
     
  15. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    White people are not “restrained” by fighting against/getting rid of racial profiling, redlining, police brutality against people of color, or any other such racist practice.

    If (general) you consider an inability to keep people of color out of your neighborhood or out of your workplace, or an inability to call the police on people of color just for existing in the same space that you exist, you probably are not in any position to ask about “moral obligations.”

    The question isn’t, why should it be the responsibility of all members of society to undo racist/homophobic/misogynistic practices—the question is, why shouldn’t it be, unless there is some innate desire to uphold racist/homophobic/misogynistic practices as either “the best practices”?
     
  16. Fire_Ice_Death

    Fire_Ice_Death Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Feb 15, 2001
    Mostly because it pigeonholes someone's identity into factors beyond their control. I thought I'd explained that, but guess not. I find the concept of pride in anything to do with genetics or chance to be fairly pointless in the long run, at least as far as my opinion goes, because I'm going to like you or dislike you based on how you act toward me and the people around you. You can say, "that's your white privilege," but whatever it is, I've never judged anyone based on their race, culture, or 'identity'. Again: I see identity politics as the same stuff that conservatives have been doing for years, but with a liberal bent and flowery language. It's used to hector people into in and out groups and if you're in the in-group then the world is yours and if you're in the out-group then no one can give a crap about you and your problems.

    Soo...same as it ever was.
     
  17. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    The “pride” angle comes about because black people and LGBTQ people were not allowed to be proud of who they were, and in the case of black people, their heritage, for so long.

    The problem with employers putting resumes with “ethnic sounding names” at the bottom of the pile is one example. When black people feel obligated to give their children “white sounding names” in order to give them a better chance, they are not allowed to fully display their African heritage.
     
  18. SuperWatto

    SuperWatto Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Sep 19, 2000
    If I may take the liberty to pose an imho basic question, and then stick my fingers in my ears when somebody takes the time to respond
     
  19. DANNASUK

    DANNASUK Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Nov 1, 2012
    Anonymous CV's (resumes) were introduced back in 2015, I think, to stop name discrimination in the UK.
     
  20. SateleNovelist11

    SateleNovelist11 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2015
    I voted yes due to the explanation for Black Lives Matter. The statement All Lives Matter is like saying, "White supremacist opinions matter, too." Black Lives Matter put the spotlight on the unlawful and appalling violence against African Americans, which had long been ignored after the 1960s. The brutal torture of black people during slavery was when this began, of course. I was reading about the open secret of white male slave owners having sex with, and often abusing, young black women, some of whom were underage. Black men were lynched due to the widespread fear that black men would have sex with white women. The insane justifications for brutality against black bodies continue to the present day.

    When a society learns to treat nonwhite, LGBTQ, and female persons equally to those in power, the society itself becomes better and healthier.
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2018
  21. Point Given

    Point Given Manager star 7 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Dec 12, 2006
    "Asks question, gets response, decides to quote a snippet of the response to justify not bothering to engage further"

    Come on.
     
  22. Lord Vivec

    Lord Vivec Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Apr 17, 2006
    By definition people in power will be treated superior to the rest of us. That's the problem with identity politics. Adding diversity to the top only increases the diversity of the rich and powerful. What needs to happen is the tearing down of the hierarchy to begin with, which is what makes socialism superior to anything sjws posit.
     
  23. Darth Guy

    Darth Guy Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Aug 16, 2002
    How do you explain groups such as the original Black Panther Party, a group based on "identity" (mainly as a reaction to state violence against the black community) that was nonetheless radically socialist? One of its most charismatic and popular leaders, Fred Hampton, was murdered by the Chicago PD and FBI explicitly because he was building a broad working-class movement.
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2018
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  24. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 1999
    My workplace has been doing blind listing for a while - all you have is a app number and what info a candidate submitted. Removes a whole of unconscious bias very quickly.
     
  25. Lord Vivec

    Lord Vivec Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Apr 17, 2006
    I
    I never said minority groups can't be socialist. I'm saying social justice groups aren't.