PT RLM provides a brilliant satire of prequel bashing, not an actual critique of the prequels!

Wow, so much sand in the undies in this thread. The RLM videos were amusing to me. I agree with some of the criticisms, disagreed with a lot. But I did find them amusing overall. Interestingly, I had never even HEARD of them until I came to this site, so take that for what it's worth. And NONE of my non-fanatic friends who are critical of the PT have ever heard of them.

Subjective opinions are, well, subjective. I have no problem with their being fans who think the PT films are the bestest movies ever. I personally think they are wrong, but hey, subjective. But I think it is undeniable that the OT is held in higher regard overall. That is NOT to say that people really HATE the PT. In my experience, the more fans experience the PT, the more they like them (while still making fun of the cringeworthy stuff). I know my liking for them has generally improved on repeated viewings. Though TPM is one I still have to struggle through.

But here's the thing.... no one is going to be convinced to not listen to RLM's criticisms using reasoning like in this thread. The ONLY thing a thread like this can accomplish is to make people who already dislike the videos feel a sense of self-righteous disdain for them. But that will not change any minds, I think.

 

I would think that ANH and TESB would rather be among them then the whole OT trilogy. Since the beginning ROTJ has been considered the black sheep of the trilogy.

 

Yeah fair call. RotJ has a good reputation but not quite at the same level.

 

Though I disagree with their reviews I actually like their channel. They obviously don't hold themselves up to their own standards though, in their half in the bag reviews they will often go after movies for having infantile or mean humor and then they do exactly that in their skits! (It honestly doesn't bother me, I laugh either way).
They remind me of the typical film school YouTube critics as well as my nephew who went to film school. He suddenly stopped liking the films he loved because he now had the prism of the schooling and started hating most movies. I always thought it was rather sad that his love of film drove him to hate most of it.

 

As I said before, TFA seems to be doing it directly to pander, while Lucas - if you subscribe to the ring theory - had bigger aspirations. It doesn't help that JJ has a tendency to copy others work, while failing to provide anything meaningful of his own to the work, beyond distracting lens flare. And if you think about it, Lucas while visually plagiarizing his and others work on Star Wars in the PT, actually subverted expectations with a story of political conquest and intrigue. I don't see TFA having the gumption to subvert audience expectations in any capacity.

I'm not someone who is a Lucas apologist. If a Lucas supervised TFA looked similar or identical to the one being released in December, I would be just as critical. The title alone sounds completely uninspired. It's more suitable for a sequel to The Force Unleashed video game, imo. The reuse of, oh, I'm sorry, I mean the use of 'upgraded" technology from the OT is also boring and uninspired, for which I would also skewer Lucas as well. And finally, if Lucas chose to undercut the events of ROTJ, as it appears to be happening in TFA, I would mercilessly criticize him for that most of all.

 

Very good points Mindless, I would do the same myself. My feeling is JJ has probably completely reworked Lucas' story treatments.

 

I used to think Stoklasa was being meta and making fun of prequel bashing as Plinkett, but he's not. In an interview as Stoklasa, he describes how he made the reviews. He says he only saw the movies once years before, and couldn't remember why he didn't like them, so he watched them a second time while pausing to write the reviews. That explains a lot of his ignorance. So when he's complaining that it makes no sense, he isn't even waiting to take it all in. He says Star Wars should be for what he calls the "popcorn eating dim-witted masses," and praised Star Trek 2009 for being just that.

 

This is an interesting post.... but I very much disagree with a premise of it: First, I would argue that the PT really DIDN'T subvert expectations with a story of political intrigue. Many people, myself included, assumed that would be the basic subject matter. I mean, what else would it be? The subverted expectations had a lot more to do with execution than subject matter. I'd further argue that you don;t want to completely subvert audience expectations in franchise. I mean, people like the franchise for a reason. If you suddenly change everything up, you had better be DAMNED sure that it is at least as entertaining as what came before. Frankly, if TFA came off looking and feeling too different from the OT, I would have almost no interest in it. I mean, the technology and basic look of the world today is not that radically different from the world 30 years ago. It's evolutionary, rather than revolutionary, and that feels REAL to me. And I can't see how you can say TFA will undercut the events of ROTJ. What do you mean by that?

 

And who's having "bad taste" and knows nothing about movie at the end?

 

From my experience growing up with the prequels I got the impression that people wanted a more clear-cut story that didn't revolve around taxes and machiavellianism. In AOTC specifically it's revealed that the Jedi worked side-by-side with Stormtroopers, which is something I doubt many anticipated. I'd personally assumed the Clone Wars wasn't literally about clones, but a term referring to something else. Anakin's turn being romantically driven is something else I doubt anyone projected or probably wanted, but that's the direction Lucas went in.

I wouldn't advocate for a Star Wars film to alienate the past, but what I'm asking for is a glimmer of creativity. If this film is going to lean on past accomplishments, instead of building its own unique and interesting world, what at least artistically is the point? If say there's another doomsday device, which I have no idea if there is or not, what is to be gained from retreading old ground? That was my major beef with ROTJ. It could have gone in any direction, but it lazily settled on regurgitating the main threat from ANH. Star Wars can be more than recycling the same ideas. The PT found a way to craft a new and intriguing story that was purely its own, while still hitting those familiar beats that remind you that its still Star Wars.

It's very simple what I mean by undercutting the events of ROTJ. In ROTJ the Empire is defeated, it's very obvious with the ending montage. If it was not defeated, then the ending does not seem warranted, and Anakin's sacrifice now feels more hollow. Remnants here and there - fine. But after 30 years these guys are still around? It just feels forced, and it cheapens everything that came before it.

 

I know one of the major gripes the anti PT crowd has is that they wanted Jedi with an army of recruits fighting clones, not Jedi fighting with the clones against droids and then the clones turning on the jedi.

ROTJ made it pretty clear the Empire was dealt a fatal blow, especially with the SE. Perhaps this is JJ trying to whitewash the SE as much as he can get away with? It would be nice if we could read Lucas' original story treatments for TFA to compare his ideas to JJ's.

 

I'm very much looking forward to seeing what was left in and what was discarded.

 

Yeah I must admit that my first outing last week to a toy store was a little underwhelming. More X-wings and TIE fighters - were is the stuff from the new film?

Anyhow I find it difficult to gauge the 'OT purist' opinion. I don't mean to use crass categorizations but I genuinely can't seam to get a handle on wether certain factions think this is a good thing - "yeah bring it all back", or actually it might in some way be just trying to blow on hot coals best left alone now.

RLM has already made his opinions felt with his 'spoof' TFA review.

 

"Ring theory" is just fan interpretation. Lucas wouldn't know what ring theory is. He'd probably think it's something out of nuclear physics.
Lucas loves lens flares. Check out the blinding one at the very start of RotS. Wear your sunglasses
Funny how Abrams is accused of a lack of originality where he's added to existing franchises which requires the use existing characters, themes & technology. Also you're forgetting Kasdan. He's seemingly the principal story writer here. Is he a hack who just plaguerises the work of others too??

We'll see. I think the ST will certainly do some subverting of expectations. That's why they're so secretive about the plot.

Of course he would have. Who do you think Lucas was going to have as the opposing force in his sequel story? You need bad guys with ships & troops to have Star Wars. Who if not the next evolution of the Imperials? Some new alien faction just suddenly popping up in the story? Lucas loves continuity & evolution of the various characters and factions. He'd want a group that has a lineage back to the Empire of the OT & the Republic of the PT.

Really? Just as critical as you are towards evil Disney, the mob who have unfairly lampooned the PT in their marketing? Just as critical? Hmm.

Here's a summary of TPM (or is it ANH?):

Young Force prodigy is found on Tatooine, leaves his home & learns about the Force from a wise old mentor (who dies), has the hots for a beautiful young royal girl & then fights in a space battle at the end (with R2D2) where he destroys the enemy vessel in space above the good guy's planet. End with ceremonial celebration & cheeky smiles between characters.

Maximum points for originality there Georgie boy. Consider my expectations "subverted"

The Empire can be defeated yet still there was always going to be a major presence of Imperials throughout the galaxy. It was a galaxy spanning Empire. We've gone over this ground. It was established in ANH that the Empire had partially independent Governors exercising "direct control" over whole star systems. With such formidable opposing forces a stand off or cold war period could easily occur. During which a few decades can quickly pass by.
Note that Lucas personally reviewed & sanctioned the Zahn novels all those years ago which included the ongoing threat of the Imperials.
This is all one story. We need to see what both sides have evolved into in the next episode.

Exactly. What's all this talk of "subverting" anyway? It's episode 7 which follows ep 6 in a 9 part story. It's a continuation of what's come before. Despite that there are plenty of interesting & unique elements in this next episode. Not to mention very appealing new characters played by likable young actors.

 

It's rumored that Lucas wanted the focus to be on a new generation, while JJ was of the opinion that this film should be about the OT characters last hurrah. That's his mo wanting to focus on what's already established, instead of exploring new territory. Watch his latest Star Trek film or Super 8. Both come off as thinly veiled remakes of other/better films. As for Kasdan, I have no idea. Sort of reminds me how Obama supposedly needed Biden to get elected.

Lucas loves evolution so of course he'd still have the Empire around? I don't see evolution with The First Order. I see a faction frozen in time. If this matches up with Lucas' treatments, that would be immensely disappointing.

A new alien threat is precisely what Star Wars needs. How about Mandalorians or something never before seen? I'd even be fine with the Jedi and Sith not playing a role at all.

However, It's becoming obvious that JJ, Kasdan, or even Lucas took the path of least resistance with TFA.

At least you finally admitted it. And yes, absolutely.

You've simply pointed out commonalities, not what the story is actually about.

 

Good job for making Downuder admit anything.

 

That's kinda unfair giving the fact that ROTJ is often critized for being to similar to the other films. Sure Stoklasa does not but generally ROTJ is not really that popular among star wars fans.

 

Not sure if you've noticed but the next generation are absolutely the focus of this movie! All we've seen so far is Finn, Rey, Dameron & Kylo Ren. The OT characters have barely been sighted. It's clearly more about the next gen with the classic characters supporting them.

Nope. I've seen people try to dismiss Kasdan's role around here before. Probably bcs bashing Abrams is such a fad. He presents an easier target than they guy who wrote Raiders, RotJ & ESB. In fact it seems clear that Kasdan is the main story writer. For example, have a look at how Ford refers to the roles of the key people involved in TFA here at 50.00:



There are alot of other instances where cast talk about the story "Larry wrote" & the dialogue "Larry wrote for me". Abrams contributed to the script & is the director but only for this one episode. Kasdan seems to be the principal writer not only for this but also for other movies & episodes.

...Yet people here prefer to ignore this & incessantly rave on about Abrams & "his" story.

You're still not getting it. The Empire isn't around at all. The Empire was a government regime. They're finished. Done. The celebrations at the end of Jedi were more than justified. But a whole galaxy spanning military force doesn't vanish into thin air. That's absurd. Plenty of scenarios would see them form together evolve into something else. & this First Order is a very different beast. They're fanatics, like neo-Nazis. Just like those crazies these guys deliberately mimic Imperial dogma, iconography & symbols. If you ask me they seem more dangerous & unpredictable than the Empire ever was.

Er yeah a major part of the story is exactly about that. It's about getting Luke Anakin from lowly Tatooine youth to be on the path to becoming a Jedi & in the thick of the galactic story by the end of the movie.

But anyway, let's ignore that & go back to bashing TFA for it's "unoriginality"

 

Just pointing out what was rumored and JJ's track record. We will find out soon enough.

There's nothing to get. Whatever they're being rebranded as they are still ostensibly the Empire. It's without a doubt the easiest road to take when conceiving a trilogy beyond ROTJ and that's why I take issue with it. In a real-world context you're absolutely right. The remnants of the Empire would not simply hand over their weaponry and sing Kumbaya with their Rebel enemies post-ROTJ. But the point you're missing I feel is that there is nothing to gain by telling this story AGAIN.

You're being reductive.

Yes, there are similarities to A New Hope, but it's not a simplistic little tale like the aforementioned film. The stuff going on behind the scenes - Palpatine manipulating the political system for instance - is just as important if not more so than the main plotline.

 

Darth Downunder

"Ring theory" is just fan interpretation. Lucas wouldn't know what ring theory is. He'd probably think it's something out of nuclear physics.

I think you are being sarcastic here, but there were suggestions that Lucas would be involved in a production of Wagner's Ring - considered the apex of Western 'total art', a work similarly dense in symbolism and the poetry of recurring themes - not least of course in the music - the use of the leitmotif being a device directly and successfully copied by Williams in his scores.

Lucas might or might not know about that specific ring theory, or based his films on it, but the suggestion that that is because he less than well read and wont have come across similar modes of story telling or myth interpretation really betrays a rather condescending idea of what he is about. Rather like Mr RLM has to assume he is a naive bumbling idiot with no clue to make his thesis work.

 

No personal attacks.

 

Fair enough if you have those concerns. I personally have faith that they're not telling anything "again". There will be some major & fascinating differences while referencing themes from the rest of the Saga. Much like the PT did.

Good description & that's exactly what we'll see in the ST. Just like with the PT, the writers of this trilogy have had the advantage of planning out the whole storyline. I'm sure there will be plots, stories & developments going on behind the scenes here too. Who is this Andy Serkis character? What are the Knights of Ren all about? What's going on with Luke? Seems odd to me that you as a fan are taking such a pessimistic view when we know so little.

 

We take a pessimistic view because Disney is giving us pessimistic content. The trailers and photos have been lackluster so far besides the anti PT side with the current marketing.

 

Yep terrible trailer. No one liked it. What a disaster

 

"appeal to the people") fallacy.

I thought it was lack luster and the camera work was amateurish. Plus most of what we saw was rehash. But at least there is a real desert.