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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Robert Downey Jr. is SHERLOCK HOLMES (A Game of Shadows)

Discussion in 'Archive: Your Jedi Council Community' started by slimybug, May 18, 2009.

  1. Healer_Leona

    Healer_Leona Squirrel Wrangler of Fun & Games star 9 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2000
    Lovely woman.
     
  2. ILuvJarJar

    ILuvJarJar Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 19, 2008
    Damn it, you beat me to it. :p
     
  3. Jabba-wocky

    Jabba-wocky Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    May 4, 2003
    So, I finally got around to seeing this movie. In some ways, it was enjoyable. But I also felt like it was not much of a Holmes tale. I'll forego the obvious comments about how kinetic the whole affair was. Let's focus on the mystery. One of my great pleasures when reading Holmes was the accessibility and ingenuity of the stories. In most all cases I can remember, all the pertinent evidence was presented clearly. You didn't need any special knowledge to be able to puzzle through things. Holmes was presented as a great mind because he put together the evidence in a way others (including the reader) often didn't, even though, in retrospect, it was quite reasonable to do so. By contrast, this Holmes relied just as much on bizarre minutiae. The grave, for instance, was sealed with an ancient Egyptian water-soluble superglue, which apparently only he and the conspirators knew about. And which he was familiar enough with to recognize by the taste of its residue. That sort of thing is unfair, and less fun, because you are immediately taken out of the realm of being able to solve the mystery, and forced to content yourself with praising how wonderful and well-educated Holmes is.

    Anyway it was a drawback I noticed.
     
  4. solojones

    solojones Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Sep 27, 2000
    Eh, it's not really fair to hold the film up to the standard of the books exactly. The question of whether or not the evidence was presented well shouldn't be "was it how it is in the books?" It should be, as with everything, "was it a compelling choice for the movie?"

    Let's face it, most of the people who watch the films will never have read any of the books. I have read some of the books and I didn't remember or notice that it was markedly different in its mystery presentation. But even if it is, that's fairly irrelevant.
     
  5. Jabba-wocky

    Jabba-wocky Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    May 4, 2003
    Well, I certainly understand that sentiment. It's a very strong point, and I do try to keep from giving hung up on changes that are, in the end, trivial. Yet, I think there's also something to be said for patterns of changes made to source material. While it's important to tell a compelling story in the movie, if it's going to purport to be a cinematic version of a certain franchise, the question of fidelity does become important. So beyond asking "Is it a compelling choice for the movie?" I think it's also fair to ask "Does this film and its main character evoke Sherlock Holmes?" As opposed to a mystery set in late 19th century Britain which happens to star a brilliant detective.

    In that light, I stress the presentation of the mystery because that is, at it's heart, what the Holmes stories are. The narrative elements were always comparatively subordinate. So to change this, in my view, would be to make a fairly substantial change in the logic of the tale, rather than the standard sort of adjustments that can and should be made as one transitions between media.
     
  6. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2000
    war rhino
     
  7. Jabba-wocky

    Jabba-wocky Chosen One star 10

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    May 4, 2003
    I said I don't mind changes that are trivial. Not changes that are trivializing.
     
  8. solojones

    solojones Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Sep 27, 2000
    I understand that sentiment, too, Wocky. It's a tough call. I don't think something should be beholden to the source material, however sometimes there's a collective view of a character that I don't think should be radically altered. For instance, I think Superman as a bad boy would be ridiculous.

    Holmes is a unique case, though. The collective vision of Holmes (from many of the stodgy British versions over the years) is actually not very true to the books. Personally, I feel like RDJ's Holmes is much closer in spirit. Sure, the style of the film is very different from the style of the books. But the nature of the character is better, IMHO, in this film than in the older films.

    Now as to the mystery... I would agree that you don't just want the character to be "random detective in the time period". However, I think the difference you pointed out is really minute. I thought the film overall did a good job of dropping hints and portraying Holmes' thought process in a cinematic fashion. I think the difference you pointed out is so minor I didn't even notice it. That's not the kind of drastic change that I think alters the fundamentals of the character. I think it's well within creative license involved in adaptation.
     
  9. leia_naberrie

    leia_naberrie Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 10, 2002
    Not giving the reader the appropriate clues they need to solve the story is textbook Holmes. Arthur Conan Doyle nevergave the reader enough information. Holmes - always - reveals half a dozen things he observed that the reader was never informed of during his summation and uses them to solve the mystery.

    I really enjoyed the movie, as everyone else has said, because of the characterization of Holmes and Watson. I didn?t even mind the liberties they took with Irene Adler because Rachel MacAdams and RDJ played their chemistry brilliantly. But the summation at the end where Homes reveals things we couldn't possibly have known, that's pretty much as accurate as it gets. Sherlock Holmes stories were not about the reader having a chance to solve the mystery. They were about the reader being amazed by this guy's brilliant deductive powers and how he picks up on everything no one else does. They were pulp adventure stories that just happened to star an extremely good detective.
     
  10. Jedi_Dajuan

    Jedi_Dajuan Administrator Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Dec 30, 2002
    I had no idea the sequel was coming out this year <3 I can't wait!
     
  11. halibut

    halibut Ex-Mod star 8 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Aug 27, 2000
    It's the same with Murder She Wrote. Most annoying
     
  12. GIMER

    GIMER Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 15, 2000
    Scooby Doo never did that. You always knew it was going to be the caretaker Mr. Jenkins.
     
  13. AcklayComeHome

    AcklayComeHome Jedi Master star 7

    Registered:
    Apr 27, 2002
    And he would've gotten away with it too, if it weren't for those meddling kids.
     
  14. Aytee-Aytee

    Aytee-Aytee Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 20, 2008
    Any word on when we will be seeing the first of the SH2 trailers? May? June?
     
  15. JoinTheSchwarz

    JoinTheSchwarz Former Head Admin star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 21, 2002
  16. Healer_Leona

    Healer_Leona Squirrel Wrangler of Fun & Games star 9 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2000
    Wow, quite the first trailer! :D :D
     
  17. tom

    tom Chosen One star 8

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    Mar 14, 2004
    i didn't know jared harris was playing moriarty. cool.
     
  18. Katya Jade

    Katya Jade Administrator Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jan 19, 2002
    That just looks fun.
     
  19. Kiki-Gonn

    Kiki-Gonn Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Feb 26, 2001
    Looks fun.

    I would have greatly preferred a movie that was more true to the spirit of the stories but I enjoyed the first and am looking forward to this one.
     
  20. Chancellor_Ewok

    Chancellor_Ewok Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Nov 8, 2004
    Woo hoo!The game is afoot!

    [face_dancing]
     
  21. Mar17swgirl

    Mar17swgirl Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Dec 26, 2000
    Looks pretty fun, but possibly even further away from the stories than the first film... :p

    I'll see it, of course, but I'm much more looking forward to the REAL Sherlock Holmes and that is Benedict Cumberbatch in the second series of Sherlock this autumn. [face_love]
     
  22. Everton

    Everton Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Jul 18, 2003
     
  23. JoinTheSchwarz

    JoinTheSchwarz Former Head Admin star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 21, 2002
    Apparently this time it's partially based on The Final Problem (yes, that's supposed to be Switzerland). So yeah: even though this is an... unorthodox... adaptation of Doyle, I'm afraid you can't say it's further away from the original than the first (and totally made up) movie. :p
     
  24. solojones

    solojones Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Sep 27, 2000
    I do agree in terms of being more true to the character (and also awesome). However, the first Sherlock Holmes film was a lot of fun and it looks like this one could be, too. Bit disappointed it looks so action-y, but then again they're going to put as much of that in the trailers as they can.


    -sj loves kevin spacey
     
  25. Everton

    Everton Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Jul 18, 2003
    It's the action that bugs me. So much of it, and so much of it present for no other reason than for turn it from an interesting film to a blockbuster.

    They are fun. I don't like the first one, but it is fun - there's no use in denying it. The tragedy is that this franchise is now the only big budget big screen adaption of Holmes were going to get for a while. There won't be another - there won't be the chance to do it better - for a long, long time. And that's a little depressing.