Roe vs Wade Anniversary - general discussion

Discussion in 'Cleveland, OH' started by Krash, Jan 22, 2003.

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  1. Krash RSA Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 11, 2000
    star 5
    Since this conversation got mixed up with my efforts to get us involved with "doing good" in our community (particularly a group i have a personal involvment in)...I've decided to open a seperate discussion thread to allow more thoughts on the matter.

    CR WARNING: While this subject has brought out many strong (sometimes even violent) reactions from people, I'm warning everyone right now...EVERYONE will respect the opinions of everyone else. If you need to review the TOS, I suggest you do so before posting (by posting each time, you've agreed to do so)

    Debate is welcome...disagreement is very possible...but I don't want this turning into a "pro-choice" "pro-life" shouting match.

    One of the advantages of posting this thread is that, as CR, if things get out of hand...I can shut it down faster then a Death Star trash compactor.

    Having said that...please, continue this conversation from the other thread.
  2. Jedi_BMack Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 25, 2002
    star 4
    Well said Jade.

    I enjoy listening to people make very luucid arguments concerning their faith. Your argument seems to be based on your own interpretation of the text and not the rhetoric spouting from the mouth of a rather hypocritical clergyman. A perfect example of someone who thinks for themselves and yet another reason to be applauded.

    A couple of points from my perspective.

    First, I don't name any deity in my belief system. I won't take another falliable human's word for it, and I wouldn't want to offend him or her by a mere presumption of who or what he or she is. And what if I spell it wrong? That's just embarassing. So, for lack of a better term, I'll call him, her or it (it might be an it) god. Small g, I don't know, maybe god likes it that way, I wouldn't want to impose.

    Second, very convincing argument about god testing us. I actually like that quite a bit. But who's to say we're here to pass every test? What if god deliberately throws a splitter when we can't hit anything below the waist. What if we're just entertainment? These are all arguments I'm sure everyone has heard before. Who says that god gave us all the tools we need to pass everything "he" would throw at us? The Bible? I don't buy it... written by humans, might be biased. Same with the Koran, the Talmud, the book of Mormon, any major religious text.

    Interesting thought: God decides a woman should bear a child after being raped. Obviously, the rapist partook of his own free will, and the victim can currently exercise her own free will on whether or not she wants to keep the child.

    Let's say she keeps the child. The mother and the child go on to grow up in poverty because, under our system, she gets no child support because the father was never identified/locked-up. Maybe the mother dies and her daughter ends up on the streets, or on welfare, or on drugs, or maybe even raped.

    OK! So now we have a new rape victim. She gets pregnant and decides not to keep the child. Maybe she then gets help, pulls herself out of the gutter, grows up tempered and stronger for being tested, doesn't want to follow in her mother's footsteps. Maybe, just maybe, this woman goes on to become a champion of women's rights and manages to help women defend themselves against the violent element. Less rapes happen. The greater good prospers because of her actions. Is it not part of god's plan to see the greater good prosper? And if one 'life' (quotations because I don't know where life starts, and I'm not getting into it.)... if one 'life' is given up for the greater good... the question asks itself.

    So please, as a thinking human being, answer these questions for me, no one else has been able to. In doing so, do not question your faith. It seems to work for you just fine. And the impression I get of your self-discovery of your faith helps to renew my hope in the human race.

    What happens to a good person with no faith? Am I wrong if I develop the same values as any devout, religious individual if I don't have faith in god? Will I go to whatever 'hell' awaits me? Or will I go where good people go?

    -b-
  3. DonC Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 30, 2001
    star 4
    This is the worst idea in the history of bad ideas. I've seen people try and discuss this before, it always turns ugly. I cannot recommend enough that this be deleted now.
  4. TheRandomMenace Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 13, 2002
    star 4
    I can foresee problems too... however, they can be avoided as long as everyone posting uses neutral tones. And I am stating that before you read below this line, I have referenced some sexual behaviors below this line (while I have not done so graphically, I just want to advise parents/guardian discretion for the younger members.) That being said...

    I, like Kim, use faith as a basis. A devout Catholic, I refer to the Biblical quote:

    Go forth, be fruitful, and multiply

    I take this as God's (this is what I am accustomed to, so I am going to refer to the greater power as this just for my personal reasons, no offense meant to anyone) instruction to reproduce to further the species. However... I do NOT take this to mean:

    Go forth, get knocked up, then destroy the thing!

    (Where "thing" refers to the fertilized egg, whether that be blastocyst, embryo, etc; not going to delve onto that ground either)

    I know that Bmack is a huge advocate of looking at issues like this by taking a step back and tracing things to the root of the problem. In that light, I will outline things as I see them.

    "Abortion is a necessary evil." I hear this phrase all too often. I feel that the key word to examine here is necessary. So this leads one to ask "Why IS abortion necessary? (at all)" Personally, I think this is a societal issue. And I want to remain on the grounds we have established and not venture into new ones (just for the sake of containing the topic), so I won't comment any further, BUT, going back to the societal issue comment before my little disclaimer, I believe that a major reason this question arises is due to society's acceptance of premarital sex. While rapes can't be discredited as a part of the problem, the major source of women who have abortions are those who are not in "matrimonially-binding" relationships (for lack of a better term), and thus have no spouse to support/raise the child. In my personal belief, these women need to

    a. Think more clearly before engaging in sexual activity by truly examining the possible consequences of their actions beforehand

    b. Realize that should they get pregnant without the means to care for the new child (that is what I am convinced it is after conception) that abortion is NOT their only option.

    I feel that in a worst-case scenario, pregnant women without the means to take care of their babies have the means to put their child up for adoption. While this opens up YET ANOTHER can of worms, I am just going to sum it up by saying that while society may give adoption agencies the shaft financially to take care of these children, a life in an orphanage (which hopefully leads to a foster/adoptive home) is better than NO LIFE at all. With that, I dare not venture further into that aspect.

    On a totally Random note, I just want to say that whether you are pro-life or pro-choice, killing other people because they have different beliefs than you is just not cool. (Meant ONLY in sarcasm) I was joking around about this with my fellow JCU marchers when I had a Knights of Columbus sign that read "Defend Life." I was saying that I should take a marker and add to it so that it read "Defend Life, and kill all those who don't!" (But that was only for humor purposes, and I guess maybe you had to be there to get it) So once again, killing people for whatever reason just ain't cool!

    In closing, I just want to say that I agree with Kim in that if God allowed the conception to take place, then there was a reason for it and that this new child has a purpose and should not be denied the right to fulfill that purpose.

    And while I feel that I have tried successfully not to attack anyone with this post, I expect everyone else who responds to do so in the same manner. And I will try my best to maintain respect for all viewpoints, including those I disagree with. AS A FOREWARNING If you feel like I have targeted anyone with comments which may be offensive (whether in this post or another post), please let me know immediatel
  5. GrnJalera Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Feb 3, 2001
    star 3
    It all comes down to a woman's personal choice. If her beliefs say it's ok to get an abortion, then let her. Don't tell her she's wrong. Don't barracade the clinic. You are denying her a basic right of freedom if you do that. It's her decision and she will have to live with it for the rest of her life. Good or bad, we (as society) have no right to try to influence that woman's choice.

    As for the rape issue - say it happened to your wife. Now, if my wife were pregnant with my child and wanted to get an abortion, we'd have to have a long talk about that. What we decide is (to quote Banky) "NONE OF YOUR [DARN] CONCERN!" If she were to get raped and get pregnant, you're damn right she's getting an abortion. She didn't ask for that child and neither did I. There's no gray area there. Take it a little further, say it was your sister, or mother, daughter, or aunt. How would you feel then?

    I am and always will be Pro-choice. It's none of my darn business if some girl out there (rich or poor) doesn't want to have that child. And it's none of your business either.
  6. Jedi_BMack Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 25, 2002
    star 4
    Eric's disclaimer should probably go on each person's response on this thread.
    EDIT: I don't want it to seem like this disclaimer deal is directed at Grn's post. Cause, when I reread, it seemed like it could have been. I was typing this one while he posted. Other than that, more power to ya GrnJalera!

    In the GOBR thread, I supported some of the same arguments against abortion. It is not birth control and it is not a way to avoid responsibilities.

    Adoption? Not always a feasible option. A societal problem I see is that quite a few of those adpoted kids will never have a chance at a good life. I wouldn't want to force any more children through the process of being passed over like puppies in a window. How many of the 'attractive kids' are adopted vs. those who aren't as attractive? Feel free to define attractive however you want, race, height, weight... they can all play a factor.

    I support the arguments about responsibility whole-heartedly. But also consider the safety of the mother? What if a woman will die during childbirth?

    I myself have a very hard time believing that some people are chosen to go when whatever god is up there, who may or may not be benevolent has decided it's their time. I can't have faith in the loving ways of a god like that. Or is it that anyone who would die that way has already lived enough, and god is calling them to him? Hmmmm... all very interesting ideas, but they are too complex.

    I have faith that something created all we see around us and even we cannot see. I also have faith that people are inherently imperfect. Some live good lives, some live bad. Those who live good lives will do bad things every now and then and vice-versa. Yet people have a free chance to choose how they live.

    The problem I have is when people are not doing 'right,' others tell them they are completely wrong and the beliefs are the reason why. Who are we to judge right and wrong? We're human. We're imperfect. It's up to whatever god is up there as to whether or not we're wrong or right. And he hasn't told us in any certain terms. We just have interpretation by imperfection.

    Mind you, I'm only stating my beliefs and trying to get people to think about theirs. I have respect for each person in this forum who has weighed in with their thoughts. You don't have to think like me for me to respect you. Just think.

    -b-
  7. TheRandomMenace Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 13, 2002
    star 4
    While both Grn and Bmack bring up some interesting points, I disagree with some of them. Just for the record, both of you (and myself too) are using arguments that have been recycled and reused time and time again. So once again, another disclaimer: I'm addressing the comments and ideas, not the people who posted about them. I am going to quote people, but keep in mind that the quotes I'm going to use are, in my opinion, cliché for pro-choice advocates. Like I said, anyone who disagrees with me probably feels my comments are cliché too. (And while I feel Bmack has taken a more neutral approach, I'm just addressing some of the ideas he's presented) I respect you guys just like Bmack said in his post.

    It all comes down to a woman's personal choice.

    As I said before, I've heard this countless times before by pro-choice people. My main problem with this is that the child (for simplicity's sake I will refer to the entity as a child, whether it be a blastocyst, embryo, or fetus) who's future is in question does not have the ability to voice his/her/its opinion, and is not afforded the same capability to make a choice. While I am most definitely NOT an advocate of either suicide by people in good health or euthanasia, I feel that at least it is their own destiny they are controlling, and not someone else who is taking their life. (even though euthanasia is technically someone taking someone else's life it's only because that person, for whatever reason wants to die and doesn't have the balls, means, whatever to do it themselves) (And in order to clarify all of the "gray areas," in the above comment I am referring to life with the presumption that after conception any fertilized egg has the capacity to become a human being, thus a fertilized egg is a life) I think it is more unfair for this child to be killed before it can even have a say in the manner than it is for a woman to be told she can't have a baby. But that's my opinion.

    Referring to rape again, yes, I would most likely be really, really upset at first, (whether it was my sister, aunt, close family friend, wife, you get the drift) but I'm sure after some cooling down I would (refer to earlier post) remember that I believe that every conception takes place for a reason. And who am I to tell someone else that they don't have a right to live once God has given them that possibility.

    A societal problem I see is that quite a few of those adpoted kids will never have a chance at a good life.

    I was anticipating comments like these B... that's why I made the comment in my earlier post about adoption, (I'll try to clarify it further here) that while a life with an adoption agency may not be as preferrable to a child, it is a life nonetheless, which in my opinion is better than a death at the hands of an abortion.

    The safety of the mother... this and rape were my two main gray areas with the whole issue, but over the years I've been more inclined to hold that God has a plan for us all... if the safety of the mother is in question, and she may die, then if she is meant to die, that's God's will. If she lives, then that is also God's will.

    I think that we can all be in agreement about Bmack's closing comments though... that we are all intrinsically imperfect. Anyone who cannot realize that obviously has a problem with how they perceive the placement of their rung on the cosmic ladder.
  8. DarthZome Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Aug 17, 2000
    star 4
    I have to agree with Eric, here.

    I would also like to say that legally, you cannot do whatever you want to your own body. You're not allowed to do illegal drugs and you're not allowed to commit suicide.

    Also, show me where the Constitution gives us the right to Abortion, because if it doesn't, the Ninth Amendment says that the power to regulate this belongs to the states.
  9. jangoboy71 Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 14, 2002
    star 4
    one small, quick comment.........people say this is about women's rights, well then if this is for women's rights, half of all the babies born are females so don't they have rights?

    that is all.....for now
  10. Jedi_BMack Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 25, 2002
    star 4
    Devil's advocate back again.

    We are guartanteed an equal opportunity (general terms, folks) in this country. I hear a lot of people say that that means everyone should be on the same level playing field. That's fine. But let's take playing field analogy a bit further. What happens on a playing field? A game. What happens in a game? Someone wins, someone loses. Hmmm... equal opportunity to play, different result. But we all want to win, we all want the big prize. Equal opportunity does not mean equal results and I don't think that anyone (except those parents who change the rules so little Billy and Susie won't lose a tee-ball or soccer game) would disagree with me there.

    My argument is that a child that will grow up in an orphanage does not have the same guarantee of the equal opportunity. Let's see, death as an innocent? Or suffering, pain and eventually death at the mercy of the mortal world. That's a tough one for me.

    One more question: If it matters, why does whatever god let the child be aborted?

    Overall though, the question of faith and law (First Amendment violation notwithstanding) appears to me to be a matter of what someone's values are and how they arrived at those values. It could be through faith, religion or sheer dumb luck but someone may posses the same set of values as someone else. So my previous question still stands:

    What happens to a good person with no faith? Am I wrong if I develop the same values as any devout, religious individual if I don't have faith in god? Will I go to whatever 'hell' awaits me? Or will I go where good people go?

    -b-
  11. TheRandomMenace Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 13, 2002
    star 4
    My argument is that a child that will grow up in an orphanage does not have the same guarantee of the equal opportunity. Let's see, death as an innocent? Or suffering, pain and eventually death at the mercy of the mortal world. That's a tough one for me.

    One more question: If it matters, why does whatever god let the child be aborted?


    Well B, here's how I see things. Death as a DEFINITE innocent? or the POSSIBLE suffering, pain, and eventual death at the mercy of the mortal world. Sure, there's a chance that the child might experience suffering, pain, and eventual death, but you can't predict that that will happen anymore than I can. I'd much rather take the chance that it WON'T happen. However, if you abort the child, then it is CERTAIN that this child will die.

    Now to address the second part of this quote. God doesn't "let" children be aborted. In my beliefs, we as humans have this little gift from God called "free will." These children die because people make decisions that lead to their deaths. See my A. and B. comments in my original post. Because people are currently NOT doing A. and B., a multitude of babies have died unnecessarily. (Some of you may say, gee Eric, here you go talking about God's will in one post to free will in another... how can both of these exist together? I'm not quite sure how this works out any more than you do. But I can say that I feel that God has a plan for all of us [His will] and that we can choose how we go about actualizing His plan [free will])

    What happens to a good person with no faith? Am I wrong if I develop the same values as any devout, religious individual if I don't have faith in god? Will I go to whatever 'hell' awaits me? Or will I go where good people go?

    People will give you answers to these questions that vary just as widely as their views on abortion. My personal beliefs are that God grants salvation to ALL, regardless of religion (or lack thereof). (I'm just saying the following because on other message boards that I've posted on a number of atheists have told me that Christians have said to them that they are going to Hell because they don't believe in God or whatever, and to be honest, I do believe that they were told that. However, I don't feel that these Christians who said it were right, nor were they speaking for all Christians [not that I am speaking for all Christians now either, although I'd like to think of myself as someone who is not an extremist]. There are extremists in every religion. I think that September 11 proves that, as not all or even the great majority of Muslims want to blow up buildings with airplanes). I personally think that God will grant everyone the right to _______ (put whatever "happy ending" phrase here, Heaven, eternal paradise with Him, "not Hell", etc). I think of faith as a gift. Some accept it. Some do not. For all I know, for some reason, it could be possible that some were never given the opportunity to accept it or reject it in the first place, although I find that possibility very hard to accept. And I don't see any problem in deriving at the same answer with anyone who is religious if for different reasons.
  12. Krash RSA Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 11, 2000
    star 5
    FLAG ON THE PLAY

    This is a discussion of the current balance of power regarding abortion in this country...DON'T start involving 9-11 in this (9-11 didn't cause all the problems in this world) If you want to discuss the religous groups currently involved in the political debate...fine (but that's all)


    While I'm keeping a close eye on this thread (thanks for the really long posts...my eyes are starting to see only double now) I've decided to keep my personal views on the matter out of this. I'll simply offer to keep this discussion to it's original purpose:

    Does this country have the right to tell women (as well as the men in thier lives) what they can do with their own bodies? That's the basis of what the Roe vs Wade decision is about.

    Again, please don't involve outside events like 9-11 in this discussion...or the Death Star trash compactor will be turned on! ;)
  13. Jedi_BMack Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 25, 2002
    star 4
    Right, 15 yards, automatic first and all that, but I'll decline the penalty... Eric raising the point of 9/11 was only an example of the extremists in all religions. I can handle that, hopefully we all can.

    So we can agree to disagree on what the value should be, and our Constitution gives us the freedom to publicize it. I hope we all can can agree that the Constitution is the Supreme Law in this country.

    Now that I have had time to sit down and read a bit (Constitution as well as the Court's 1973 opinion,) it is time to address the actual legal issues here.

    First off, Drew, you were thinking of the Tenth Amendment:
    The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.
    That is State's Rights. The Ninth Amendment relegates rights not enumerated by the Constitution to the people.

    Moving on: Also, show me where the Constitution gives us the right to Abortion...

    First some background. The Court opinion by Blackwell was explicit in saying that abortion is a privacy issue (Section VIII, Paragraph 1) and that right is protected by the Constitution:
    The right to privacy...is broad enough to encompass a woman's decision whether or not to terminate her pregnancy. (Section VIII, Paragraph 2.)
    Fourteenth Amendment. Section 1.:
    All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privleges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; or deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
    Let's pull it apart shall we?

    All persons born...are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. When were you born? Your birthday, right? And what happened that day? Personally, I got stuck (broad shoulders) but I eventually came out. That's when I became a citizen. That's when I became an individual with rights. That's when I became protected by the Constitution per the Fourteenth Amendment. Next?

    No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privleges or immunities of citizens of the United States. This sounds like the Constitution telling me that my personal rights, privacy in this case as cited in the Court Opinion by Justice Blackwell, cannot be infringed upon by any State government.

    This right is also implictly provided by the Ninth Amendment:
    The enumeration of the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

    Long story short. The Constitution protects it and no, this country not only does not have the right to tell a woman what she can do with her own body, it doesn't have the ability.

    I just re-read the Constitutional Amendments and read the Court opinion. All the Court did was to examine the Constitution, define the rights enumerated by the Constitution, define what the Constitution says is a citizen and rule that the States could not legislate against the Constitution. There's nothing wrong with that. You may disagree with the values involved, but can you disagree with the legalities of the issue without stepping on the Constitution?

    And if I may add a small editorial, if this decision was to be reexamined and overturned, I would have a very bad feeling deep in my gut that more of our civil liberties would be next. And for grins we'll start by revoking some other rights protected by the right to personal privacy: marriage, procreation, contraception, family relationships, child rearing and education.

    -b-

    EDIT: Typos...
  14. corranhornjje Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 9, 2001
    star 2
    I'm sorry for not discussing the topic as my views have for the most part been represented already. I would just like to say that I am very PROUD of every one of you for composing yourselves here in a civil and respectful manor. It speaks very highly of yourselfs and your FF. I am glad to be a poster here and with the RESPECT that you show eachother it would be NO OTHER WAY. Thank you all, if there were more people like yourselves the world would be a better place. Not that there'd be less disagreements but they'd be more controled and remain "objective" towards the topic and not get personal. Again I COMMEND everyone here even if they haven't posted.


    Jake
  15. DarthZome Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Aug 17, 2000
    star 4
    this country not only does not have the right to tell a woman what she can do with her own body, it doesn't have the ability


    I really don't care whether you believe someone has the right to do something or not. Believing that you have the right to steal software, beat your wife, etc., doesn't make it legal.

    Legally, you cannot do whatever you want with your body. It is illegal to do illicit drugs. It is illegal to kill yourself. It is illegal to drink underage. It is illegal to smoke underage.

    And if I may add a small editorial, if this decision was to be reexamined and overturned, I would have a very bad feeling deep in my gut that more of our civil liberties would be next. And for grins we'll start by revoking some other rights protected by the right to personal privacy: marriage, procreation, contraception, family relationships, child rearing and education.


    Not quite sure how to respond to that. It's illegal to beat your kids or your spouse, so you won't have free reign in those areas, regardless. There are still basic requirements for educating your children, and gay marriages, i believe, are still illegal in the State of Ohio, so you don't have unlimited freedom in those areas, either.
  16. Jedi_BMack Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 25, 2002
    star 4
    Two things, when the Supreme Court tells me through an interpretation of the Constitution that I have a right to do something, that makes it legal. There may be regulation, there will definitely be responsibilities.

    Drinks, (prescription) Drugs, Smokes... All are legal regulated substances. You have the freedom to drink or smoke, you have the responsibilty to do it without harming others.

    With every right, finish it with me folks, comes an equal responsibilty.

    We, as citizens, have the right to choose who marry or if we marry, (for the most part gay marriages are illegal, don't know why... but they are) have children or not have children, whether or not to associate with our families when we are of age, how we choose to raise our children (notice not all kids are required by law to wear uniforms, play a sport, learn music, etc...) and where we educate our children.

    The only rather smart-alec remark I have is this: If I commit suicide, will I go to jail? It's like getting a fish drunk in Ohio. It's illegal, but it just sounds silly? I think that sums that one up. ;)

    -b-
  17. TheRandomMenace Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 13, 2002
    star 4
    First to address the "flag on the play." Bmack's thought on that pretty much sums it up. I was just using it as an example to illustrate that their are extremists in religions. This isn't a 9/11 discussion thread, and I don't intend to turn it into one. Abortion and terrorism are two completely different issues. No harm (intended, and presumably none taken), no foul. Now to the good stuff... It's late, and I have homework, so this'll (hopefully) be short. But something caught my attention in one of B's more recent posts, his dissection of the Constitution:

    Fourteenth Amendment. Section 1.:
    All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privleges or immunities of citizens of the United States; NOR SHALL ANY STATE DEPRIVE ANY PERSON OF LIFE, liberty, or property, without due process of law; or deny to any PERSON within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.


    Yep... that's no accident that I took the liberty of capitalizing and boldfacing the phrase and word person in that quote. Why would I do such a thing? I think we can all agree that what is defined as a person in this whole abortion issue is one of those "gray areas" that pops up. While that quote from the Constitution defines "citizenship," it does NOT define "personhood." Thus, by permitting abortion, it is just as valid to argue that the Constitution is being violated as we speak (err, type in this context) by allowing abortion to continue, because it is denying people (unborn babies) within the jurisdiction equal protection of the laws. Also, it is a HUGE irony that the quote B used encapsulates the phrase "NOR SHALL ANY STATE DEPRIVE ANY PERSON OF LIFE" when that is exactly what it is doing by allowing abortion to exist: depriving persons (unborn babies) of life. Like my homie Forrest Gump said, "That's all I have to say about that." (for now) ;)
  18. skyedancer Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 26, 2002
    star 2
    First of all, I agree that this is one of the more civil discussions of the abortion issue I've heard or read. Everyone should be commended for being polite and also for coming up with some really thoughtful arguments pro and con. I can see that the posters here have really mulled this issue over and we all should because it is a complex issue revolving around such other issues as: When does life really start? What are individual rights anyway and which of these rights should the government legislate? Does the government have the right to legislate morality? Does one citizen have the right to control the private actions of another citizen? And so on. I have to say that I have really mixed feelings on this topic. As a woman, it would be difficult for me personally to have an abortion--even if the child conceived resulted from a rape! On the other hand, I believe I don't have the right to make that decision for other women. I do believe in God as well but I also believe in free will and that means God has given us the choice of how we will conduct our lives. Therefore, I cannot make moral choices for other people. (As for all of you questions about the Creator, Jedi_BMack, and life after death, that's a whole other thread!) A few other comments: I wish society would put more emphasis on education about reproduction and preventing pregnancy. Also, this issue of preventing pregnancy isn't exclusively a woman's problem. Her partner should be just as responsible for preventing an unwanted pregnancy. So I'm asking all of you male posters: If you are against abortion, are you also doing what you can to prevent unwanted pregnancies? Hopefully, this last question won't offend anyone (and I don't actually expect anyone to reply to it specifically).
  19. skyedancer Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 26, 2002
    star 2
    Oops! Now I'm afraid I have insulted someone because you normally chatty people haven't responded. The Deanna Troi side of me apologizes if I have.
  20. Jedi_BMack Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 25, 2002
    star 4
    Not me... I'll reply later, cleaning my basement...

    -b-
  21. DarthZome Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Aug 17, 2000
    star 4
    The real truth is: life begins at 40.

    Deal with it.
  22. Bobafemme FF Jedi Council Member, Chicago IL RSA Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 25, 2000
    star 5
    First of all, I commend you all for keeping things so civil on such a topic. It is a very personal choice. It's also a choice that very few people (yes people, not women, because some times fathers are involved) make easily.

    I believe that abortion is a choice between the woman, her parter (if known), her doctor, and the couple's own god. I do think it needs to be done sooner than later... I know it is a tough decision, but shouldn't wait until the last trimester either, IMO.

    It is so hard for someone to make decisions for others when they can never be in their shoes. Thankfully, most never will be. Can you imagine the immense psychological pain of being raped? Add on getting pregnant. Now you have a reminder for 270 days of that event. What if you keep the baby (adoption works well in a pretty, white world where perfect couples want to give up babies), then for the rest of your life, there is a tangible, real relic of that event. Maybe the child would be a divine gift.

    But what if you aren't raped. What if you just really really don't want to be a mother or parent. Again, I believe it is between the woman, man, their doctor and their god(s). A child born, but not wanted, is no blessing.

    Just a reminder, like Krash said, if anything in this thread turns to baiting, flaming, or TOS violations, it'll be locked and violators get a short ban.
  23. Krash RSA Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 11, 2000
    star 5
    because it is denying people (unborn babies) within the jurisdiction equal protection of the laws

    "Well that's the real trick now, isn't it?"
    I'm not going to get too deep into this one, because that's a theological debate of epic proportions. Nobody hopes for an abortion, and should only be considered as a LAST resort. From what I understand, the people who perform abortions don't WANT this to happen...that it's about keeping options available to women. While there are a small percentage of woman who use this as a "easy out"...that should not take away from allowing women the right to choose what to do with their bodies.

    Referring to rape again, yes, I would most likely be really, really upset at first, (whether it was my sister, aunt, close family friend, wife, you get the drift) but I'm sure after some cooling down I would (refer to earlier post) remember that I believe that every conception takes place for a reason.

    Getting back to this statement, that's great that you have that perspective; but I'd ask you to consider it from the woman's perspective...that child can be viewed as a living reminder of a very violent, and traumatic violation. It's not fair to force a woman (and man involved) to endure that constant reminder of such a horrible act. Set aside your own personal belief system for a second, and consider the woman's perspective.

    The focus of this debate shouldn't be what we think is right...but who should have the choice to make decision about a woman's body!

    If it isn't painfully obvious, I'm more a supporter of a woman's right to make the decision...then a supporter of abortion. Many pro-life supporters seem to blend the two views together. And while I disagree with the official Catholic church's views on this matter, I don't think this should cancel out my ability to call myself a member of the Catholic church.
  24. TheRandomMenace Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 13, 2002
    star 4
    I am going to use 3 hypothetical examples that are extremely similar, but one is in the "real world", the other two, in the fantasy world, to illustrate my point.

    First, (assuming abortion was permissible and as culturally acceptable during the time as it is now) I ask us all to ask ourselves, "What if George Lucas's parents had an abortion?" Look at the ramifications of that... With the exception of select members of this group who were related or already friends, none of us would know each other. And I would like to say that in the last year I've made some of my best friends from this group. Think about all of the happy couples who met because they had a similar interest in Star Wars... none of those people would have met and fallen in love. There wouldn't be avid fans out there naming their children "Obi-Wan." I could name a million other consequences that would result if Uncle George weren't born, but I'm sure by now you get my point.

    Now, for a Star Wars comparison. Geoff made the statement

    It's not fair to force a woman (and man involved) to endure that constant reminder of such a horrible act.

    EDIT: After rereading this, I don't want Geoff to feel like I'm singling him out, seeing as Bobafemme seems to express similar views on the topic, but for simplicity's sake I will just use Geoff's quote to address both of them

    Did Shmi Skywalker ask to get pregnant? No... one day she woke up with a bulge in her stomach, and discovered that she was carrying a child. Little did she know she was to be the mother of the Chosen One. Let's just imagine a situation similar to the GL one. What if Shmi didn't want to endure the constant reminder of the equivalent of a rape by the Force?! Let's see... sure, millions of people wouldn't have died with Vader's help, but I'm sure equal numbers would have died anyway at Palpatine's hands... but there wouldn't have been a Chosen One to eventually destroy Palpatine, and millions more would have perished.

    Now assume that Anakin was born, just like the storyline we've known for years now. But now think about Padmé's pregnancy. (Ok, I know from the deleted scenes of AOTC that she was wanting to settle down and have a family for a while now, but just forget about that for the time being so I can illustrate my point) Imagine she aborted the twins. Anakin still would've gone over to the Dark Side, but there would have been no one to redeem him if Luke hadn't been on the Death Star II to talk some sense into him. Again, more would have continued to die unnecessarily at the hands of the Sith.

    These scenarios may all have been rather repititious, but I'm just trying to illustrate the point of the impact one human life can make on an entire society. Think of all of the would-be-persons that are dying and could have so much to offer to us, just because some women didn't take the proper precautions to avoid pregnancy when they did not want it. More later.
  25. Krash RSA Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 11, 2000
    star 5
    Ok, before this gets any more weird, let's clarify things:

    First, (assuming abortion "technology" was possible and permissible during the time) I ask us all to ask ourselves, "What if George Lucas's parents had an abortion?"

    First off, yes (to my understanding) abortion was a possibility at that time. Unfortunatly, the social and political remifications for a woman undergoing such a procedure were cause for devastating...as well as dangerous.

    Having said this, yes...theoretically, the Lucas family COULD have CHOOSEN to have an abortion, despite the current laws. The fact that they didn't should not be used as proof that women today (and the men involved) have the right to make a CHOICE in this matter...without outside influence and harassment.

    What if Shmi didn't want to endure the constant reminder of the equivalent of a rape by the Force?!

    I don't want to comment on the other 2 SW-related anaolgies, because I think there is too much "what if" going on that will de-rail an (so-far) intelligent conversation. Plus, it's blurring the lines between fantasy and reality...to a point where I just don't want to get involved.
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