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Lit Rooting for the Empire (or certain Imperials)- why?

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Iron_lord, Feb 1, 2013.

  1. Robimus

    Robimus Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 6, 2007
    There are tons of things to like about Democracy - as Churchhill said its the best of the worst.

    That said in a fictional universe, filled with different ideals, a lot of other forms of government (or the like) would be completely viable options. I personally wouldn't want Star Wars to be a love letter to any form of government. Everything we've known from the real world has warts so why not show them off?
     
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  2. Parnesius

    Parnesius Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    Sep 8, 2012
    Of course the plotters of the EU dislike democracy.



    Marginally more seriously: I suspect what we're seeing is less the result of opposition to democracy and rather more the prevalent disdain for politics and politicians. That the democratic, theoretically-heroic New Republic and Galactic Alliance bear the brunt of this is partly because they get the most time on stage, partly because theirs is the era in which the heroes wield the greatest access to and involvement in the upper echelons of politicking, and partly because certain authors borrow far too liberally and thoughtlessly from contemporary first world countries in depicting these polities.
     
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  3. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2000
    What you mean to say is that the Galactic Empire was eliminated at Byss. It's all but natural for the self-aggrandizing warlords that Admiral Dalliance slew at Tsoss Beacon to be horrible, awful specimens of humanity because they were: they were traitors to the Imperial government who sought nothing more but their own elevation.

    I'll never understand the appeal of the Imperial Remnant, though. It's essentially a government of fascist failures: a bunch of losers who act as if they were Platonic Guardians who alone know best. I can understand loyalty; I can understand being an unreconstructed Imperial; but I cannot understand an honest preference for these milquetoast mediocrities.

    I fail to see how fealty to the Emperor suggests that one is a horrible person. To be certain, there were some bad apples: Tarkin, Pestage, Isard, etc. I dispute the idea that they were bad because they were Loyalists, as opposed to hapless lackies.

    I would submit that there were more than two Empires -- there were several. There was the New Order, both Party and Commission, and all of its goose-stepping madness. There were the militarists -- the Sunbers and the Pellys, those who tend to seem to have the most appeal among so-called Imperial fanboys and who despise anybody who is not one of them. Then there is the Imperial Court -- the better sort of people, the ruling class, the heritage of the Old Republic and the true Galactic Empire.

    All of these groups had both cruel and noble individuals. You cannot generalize by group.

    Yeah, it's really annoying. I detest the Seppies, but I like good villains. It's really rather boring when your enemies are all straw men. Let's start with Dooku: can he be the idealist he was supposed to be instead of a cackling bully who plays telephone just to threaten people?

    It's really quite irritating. Not only because I want a credible opponent (the incompetence of the NR and GA make it too easy for me) but because it's just shaming that the Empire fell to the likes of this sort!
     
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  4. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Force Ghost star 8

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    The Kuati Senator in Conviction sounded very much like this sort of person- lauding the glories of the early Empire- and seeing Palpatine's refusal to listen to anyone else as the point when things went wrong.

    As she put it "When Palpatine suspended the Senate, I knew madness had him in its grip"

    Also, despising Fel for being very much a "Remnant" leader rather than an "Empire" one.
     
  5. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2000
    ...who's this now? I'm not familiar with any of this -- tell me more.
     
  6. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Force Ghost star 8

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    Wookieepedia has a basic overview:
    http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Haydnat_Treen
     
  7. cthugha

    cthugha Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Sep 24, 2010
    Wait, which EU are you talking about now? [face_thinking]
     
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  8. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2000
    Oh, right, her. I've heard that name before. Kuati, eh? Seems that Kuati senators are just problematic these days :p

    I can't view the Wook from this computer, but I do remember the article being unfortunately sparse on information when I was first told about her. I'll have to see if that's still the case...
     
  9. instantdeath

    instantdeath Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 22, 2010
    Good lord, that is the most terrifying thing I've seen in months. It's reduced me to one of those annoying movie goers, who yells "get out of there!" at the screen.
     
  10. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Force Ghost star 8

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    Strictly, Treen's biggest appearance, with most of her more interesting lines, is in Fate of the Jedi: Backlash (p73-74), during conversation with Moff Lecersen:

    Page 73
    "I had been a Senator for one year when Palpatine came to power," Treen told him. "Do you know what his greatest mistake was?"
    "Making you angry with him?"
    Her smile returned. "In a sense. Oh, the first years of the Empire were glorious. Taxes increased, sadly, but our planetary economy boomed as ridiculous Republic regulations were trimmed away. No, his mistake was in silencing the voices of planetary leaders. It would be like a general suddenly saying no-one of colonel rank or below could ever speak or communicate with him again. When Palpatine suspended the Senate, I knew madness had him in its grip."
    "Very interesting," he lied.
    She led him and his agents through an arch into a side chamber. The glow rods along its ceiling came on as they entered. The walls were covered with holopanels, each displaying, at five-second intervals, a changing sequence of still recordings of Kuat and the early days of Palpatine's Empire: flotillas of Kuat-built vessels, public appearances by the dark-cloaked Emperor and Darth Vader, the constructions of massive complexes.
    The Senator heaved a deep sigh. "I miss the Empire- in its original, benevolent form. And I think you can bring it back to us."
    "I'm touched by your faith. But kidnapping Jagged Fel would not make me Emperor."
    "No, but it would be the first step. And the other steps are mapped out. Masterfully, irresistably mapped out."

    Page 74
    "Now bear with me. A couple of years ago, Natasi Daala came to power. Wretched woman. We're still suffering from her effects on the Empire."
    Lecersen snorted. "Because of her, half the Moffs are women. I have a hard time believing that a Senator from Kuat would object to that."
    "I don't, but that would have happened anyway. Eventually, inevitably. I'm talking about this ridiculous compulsion to promote nonhumans far past their levels of competence. She clearly has no sense. Another reason why Fel must go, of course. Despite his ancestry, he's Chiss on the inside. Not at all human."
    "Ah." Lecersen withheld comment. This woman, though speaking the beliefs of millions of traditional Imperials, was beginning to sound more and more like an advertisement for antipsychotic drugs.
     
  11. Robimus

    Robimus Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 6, 2007
    And despite "half" the Moff's of that era being women, do we see even one female Moff in FOTJ? :p
     
  12. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 10, 2011
    Okay, yeah, I seriously doubt that's their conscious intention. But when the two democratic governments endorsed by the heroes end up as abject failures to a resurgent Empire there's definitely some unfortunate authoritarian sympathies seeping through from some direction.
     
  13. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Force Ghost star 8

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    The Senex Lords in Children of the Jedi seemed like pretty typical examples of "the ruling class" - owners and exploiters of alien slaves- but not outright alien-haters, just feeling superior to them, and unable to understand why anyone would object to their behaviour. They supported Palpatine based on his promise that unlike the Republic, he'd give them a free hand to handle aliens as they liked.

    Then there's the Tapani nobles- the most notable, Grand Admiral Grant, wonders if he's superior to the Emperor himself- since the Emperor is not a true noble, and not a Tapani (Galaxy of Intrigue)- but Grant still follows orders.

    (With the Darth Plagueis novel stating that House Palpatine are minor Naboo royals, it does raise the question of what the Tapani consider "true nobles")
     
  14. Gorefiend

    Gorefiend Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 23, 2004
    They also enslave humans for that matter apparently just to cover the elitist scum bags tag completely. ;)
    Do you really thing the Tapani nobles would take some upstart noble house from the back end of the Rim to be real nobility? Seriously the only thing Naboo is even known for is getting invaded at least half a dozen times and that they keep electing young girls to rule them
     
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  15. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Force Ghost star 8

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    Which might be why the fans like the better members of the Imperial military- the ones that concentrate on pirate hunting and the like- shown with pangs of conscience about Imperial atrocities.

    Have we ever seen a genuinely sympathetic, ultra-loyalist Imperial aristocrat?
     
  16. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2000
    Osvald Teshik. :) He's military, but he's a Core Worlder too. There's also Ars Dangor, who isn't offensive and annoying like Pestage.


    We have to remember that the Senex Lords are Rimkin too -- not Core Worlders. Indeed, Galaxy of Intrigue (I believe) also notes that the Core Worlders tend to look down on the Tapani themselves. I can't imagine the Grizmalltian descent of the Naboo royals can really be verified in a true sense, so it makes sense that the Tapani might see the Naboo as provincial, but they seem to have maintained Core customs well enough (Palpatine himself describes Naboo as having a Core culture in a Mid Rim world).
     
  17. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Force Ghost star 8

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    Just how aristocratic is the Teshik family of Anaxes, anyway?
     
  18. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2000
    Aristocratic enough to have served for centuries, just like the Harbrights served in the Senate for centuries and were considered aristocrats themselves. There's such a thing as noblesse d'épée after all.
     
  19. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Force Ghost star 8

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    "Wealthy naval families" that live in the hills of Anaxes.
     
  20. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2000
    "Anyone sufficiently familiar with the aristocracy of the Empire would consider a map of the hills akin to a map of Imperial genealogy." -- CatCW. I'd say that's sufficient to classify Old Anaxsi as Core World aristocracy.
     
  21. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Force Ghost star 8

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    "CatCW"?
     
  22. Mechalich

    Mechalich Jedi Knight star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 2, 2010
    Coruscant and the Core Worlds, a WotC revised edition (d20 system) RPG supplement.
     
  23. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Force Ghost star 8

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    I see.

    I wonder where the Teshiks would fall on the scale- Barons, like Fel? Dukes/Duchesses, like Satine?
     
  24. Gorefiend

    Gorefiend Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 23, 2004
    The speeches we have seen him delivered are pretty jarring and pretty high in the „wtf is wrong with you people“ department. [face_plain]

    They are direct descents of Core World nobles and apparently very picky about marriages, plus ruling an impressive chunk of space properly gets them some respect.
    Coruscant and the Core Worlds Sourcebook
     
  25. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Force Ghost star 8

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    I've read The Imperial Sourcebook only once, but Dangor did seem like a bit of an Ars. ;)
     
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