ROTJ and its flaws

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by Gharlane, Feb 6, 2001.

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  1. Gharlane Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 30, 2000
    star 2
    Does anybody else realize that just isn't as good as TESB or SW? First Lucas sells us out by having the all too cute Ewoks and another Death Star. Second the story just seems like an attempt to wrap up the saga as the rescue of Han and the attack on the DS2 seem like two different episodes and he makes Leia, Luke's sister making those scenes in ep5 and ep4 scary.

  2. PMT99 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2000
    star 4
    ROTJ is just as good as SW and ESB and just because the ewoks were in the movie does not mean that they own the movie. The reason that Lucas made the movie the final chapter is because he knew he wouldn't have much time left in this world to do eps.7-9 and that he had other projects he needs to get out of his head so he meshed eps.7-9 and ROTJ all together and its now known as the final chapter in the Star Wars Saga.
  3. Adali-Kiri Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2000
    star 4
    I don't "realize" that RotJ isn't as good as ANH and TESB. Sorry.
  4. My young Padawan Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 13, 1999
    star 1
    Jedi, prior to Episode I with the introduction of Jar Jar Binks into the SW Universe, was a conscious attempt to make Star Wars truly multi-generational. The first film was an experiment. It was an accomplished dream on the part of George Lucas to create something different. Empire took the dream a step further by giving the story a certain amount of depth that was missing in the first film. Luke's training scenes with Yoda are certainly geared towards a much more mature and sophisticated audience than many of the scenes in ANH. This brings us now to Jedi, and its suffering reputation. Here's what I think.

    Jedi was just as good and just as fitting overall as the other SW films. I simply believe that Lucas realized that he needed to reattract the younger crowd by adding more aliens, including Ewoks, and more special effects than the previous two films. This was also done, I believe, in Episode I, with the introduction of the character Jar Jar Binks and the enormous amount of special effects. To some, the characters of Wicket and Jar Jar ruined the films. To others, usually kids, they are the best things that ever happened to the films.

    If Star Wars is going to continue to transcend generations, George Lucas must continue to reach out to a broad audience just as he always has. After all, some day those kids will grow up and understand why Empire is their parents' favorite film of the trilogy. And when those kids are all grown up and out of the house, their parents will revisit Jedi and Jar Jar Binks and realize what they had been missing all along.
  5. Gharlane Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 30, 2000
    star 2
    PMT99, there were suppose to be Wookies instead of Ewoks. If he had no choice then he could have made the Ewoks more fierce and less cute like the Jawas. I know that Lucas wanted to move, but he could have wrapped up the threads up much better or he could leave the threads dangling until he decided to do the sequels. My main gripe was that he made Leia the sister and killed Palpatine off too early in the saga.

    Adali-Kiri, when did you become a Star Wars fan?

    Padawan, he shouldn't transcend generations at the cost of the movie's quality. Kids already loved Star Wars with or without the Ewoks. When he introduced those thing then he lost many of his adult audience.

  6. Sithman Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 6, 1999
    star 7
    ROTJ is my favorite- for many reasons. I'll explain when I have more time. :-D

    ~Sithman~
  7. Crystena77 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 15, 1999
    star 4
    The Ewoks were a statement about technology and war. The side effect was that kids were drawn to them. He used ewoks on purpose cause he wanted these primitive creatures to defeat this powerful and technologically advanced Empire.

    ROTJ is a good movie. Not as good as ESB, maybe. But a good movie.

    Sides Lucas is just telling the story as he sees it.
  8. ami-padme Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 19, 1999
    star 4
    ROTJ is my favorite too, so I guess I also missed all these little "revelations." <shrug>
  9. Boba_Phat Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 29, 2000
    star 4
    If I had to choose, I'd say RotJ is my favorite, even though I enjoy all the movies equally. I find it to be the most entertaining of the movies. I don't mind the Ewoks, they don't ruin it for me. Also, I think that it is logical that the Empire would build another Death Star.
  10. Gharlane Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 30, 2000
    star 2
    He could have done his statement with Wookies like in the very first drafts or he could have at least created something that didn't look like teddy bears and was at least fierce.

    Boba, it would also be logical for them not to build it. It's movie logic. In the original drafts it would have been an attack on the capital of the Empire.IMO that would be neater than another attack on the DS2.
  11. ookla_the_mok Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 10, 2001
    star 2
    It was more symbolic to use the DS2. Blowing it up (w/ Palpy on board) signifies the end of the Empire.

    Let's just say they placed the action on Palpy's fortress and the Rebels blow it up. What's to say he wouldn't be back? I've read too many comic books where the bad guy (Dr. Doom, the Red Skull, Cobra Commander, etc.) have their Base of Operations fall upon them and they're out wreaking havoc the next issue.

    Likewise, if the Rebels blew up the entire planet, that would ensure Palpy was dead, but they'd kill a LOT of innocents, making them just as evil as the Empire.

    DS2 was the way to go.

    Also, if GL had used wookies, it'd be a non event. I mean look at how many storm troopers Chewie took out on Cloud City -- and he's just one wookie. Imagine how simple the Endor-based troopers would be overcome if a whole horde of wookies attacked 'em.

    Besides, the Empire thought a bunch'a Care Bears would pose no threat to them. I dought they'd readily build a garrison on a planet of pissed off, super-strong wookies.
  12. Gharlane Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 30, 2000
    star 2
    Lucas still could have Vader kill Palpatine by throwing him down the reactor shaft or like in the earlier drafts in the lava. Besides taking the capital is more symbolic of the end of the Empire than taking out the ruler. Ever read Romance of Three Kingdoms? Besides in the rough draft of Star Wars the Imperials weren't afraid of the Wookies. In regard to the dead think of the non-military people on board the DS and DS2 including the minor officials. Besides in the original ROTJ scripts they didn't blow up the capital only retook it.

    "What's to say he wouldn't be back? I've read too many comic books where the bad guy (Dr. Doom, the Red Skull, Cobra Commander, etc.) have their Base of Operations fall upon them and they're out wreaking havoc the next issue. "

    If his base of operations fall on him and he survive then that wouldn't be a problem for him to survive the destruction of a battle station. In Star Wars the bad guys die and remain dead not like those comic books.

    "Also, if GL had used wookies, it'd be a non event. I mean look at how many storm troopers Chewie took out on Cloud City -- and he's just one wookie. Imagine how simple the Endor-based troopers would be overcome if a whole horde of wookies attacked 'em."

    In ESTB Chewbacca had a blaster, but this is sticks and stones versus blasters and walkers.


  13. SHATNER Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2001
    The Ground Battle:
    THE BAD GUYS
    -Huge, nearly invincible, armoured assault vehicles
    -Platooned soldiers with peak technological weapons
    -ground assault calculated by top Imperial strategists
    -Trained men of war with years of experience in battle
    -Machines, outpost, and armour designed to withstand an attack by their proven Rebel enemies
    -The latest technology adapted for Imperial warfare
    -"An entire Legion of my BEST troops"
    THE GOOD GUYS
    -A few primitive teddybears
    -Wooden spears
    -Couple o' slingshots
    -Don't forget vines to swing on
    -Um, er, they threw rocks
    -Maybe a few more spears

    Outcome: good guys won...

    ...GOOD GUYS WON????

  14. 777 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 25, 2000
    star 2
    "In ESTB Chewbacca had a blaster, but this is sticks and stones versus blasters and walkers."
    He's probably talking about the scene where han is about to be frozen and chewy starts to fight the stormies.
    Although more plausible in the end fight, wookies would of cheapened the final endor victory because we know wookies to be big and strong.
    Wicket didn't bother me at all. However, if he would of gone with luke talking incomprehensible english gibberish to the death star while making fart jokes and bumping into everything, I would hate him too.


  15. Gharlane Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 30, 2000
    star 2
    777, it wouldn't have cheapened the end because the Wookies would still have a difficult time beating the Imperials who had blasters and armor while all the Wookies have would be sticks. Besides what is size and strength compared to blasters or a shotgun.
  16. Yanksfan Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 3, 2000
    star 5
    Yeah, I thing ROTJ pales in comparison to ANH and ESB too. I don't know why. I liked all the Jabba stuff so I guess it's the ewoks. I know they are always the scapegoat but its true...ewoks suck.
  17. JediStryker Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 5, 2000
    star 4
    ROTJ is my favorite. It was a good movie, and the Ewoks didn't ruin it for me because I can accept that a primitive society armed with sticks, bows and slinshots could defeat a more technologically advanced society. Look at the Native Americans vs the US Calvary. Granted, the Native Americans lost in the end, but they won a lot of the singular battles, and they were using little more than sticks and bows.

    "My main gripe was that he made Leia the sister and killed Palpatine off too early in the saga. "

    Too early? It was the end of the Star Wars movies. I guess you're thinking there will be three more movies, which Lucas has plainly said is not the case. Therefore, Palpatine died within the last ten minutes of the entire saga. Still too early for ya'?
  18. ookla_the_mok Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 10, 2001
    star 2
    Gharlane, I meant look at how Chewie threw so many troopers around like rag dolls when Han was about to be frozen.

    Even with their Scout Walkers, speeder bikes and blasters, the Endorian garrison would have stood less chance of beating the Rebels if a bunch'a angry (blaster-less) wookies attacked. Chewie (one solitary wookie) easily commandeered a Scout Walker taking out every Imperial in his sight.

    I'll concede that scenes such as the ewoks hanging onto the walker's leg is a bit silly, but there is no doubt that these carnivorous animals (in mass numbers) overpowered the Imps.
  19. Gharlane Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 30, 2000
    star 2
    JediStryker, the Native Americans had access to some of the technology that the US Cavalry had, but the Ewoks didn't.

    "Too early? It was the end of the Star Wars movies. I guess you're thinking there will be three more movies, which Lucas has plainly said is not the case. Therefore, Palpatine died within the last ten minutes of the entire saga. Still too early for ya'?"

    He was suppose to die in Ep9 from what Gary Kurtz and others have said. The Emperor was killed off because Lucas wanted to end the whole saga at ep6 so Lucas had all the threads tied up as easily as possible. I would preferred it if Lucas had just left the threads like Luke's sister and the Emperor dangling.

    Ookla_the_mok, the Wookies might win if the whole thing was hand to hand. If you bring blasters into the equation then they would lose. Remember what Obi-Wan said in SW about the skill and marksmanship of the stormtroopers and remember these stormtroopers are the Emperor's "best".

    "Chewie (one solitary wookie) easily commandeered a Scout Walker taking out every Imperial in his sight."

    The walker pilot was incompetent because you don't do this in war. Chewie taking out the Imperials was the only part I thought made sense
  20. My young Padawan Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 13, 1999
    star 1
    The Battle of Endor's reliance on the Ewok's primitave warfare was certainly a historical metaphor, but not one of Native American history. After all, the Native Americans did in fact lose the Indian Wars, and the Ewoks helped to win the Battle of Endor. It was, however, a reference to the Vietnam War. The points, however, are well taken.

    As for the introduction of Ewoks being in a sense a sell out, I can't disagree more. Lucas is constantly playing around with references to the seven deadly sins and the seven virtures. Humility is certainly one that may be learned from both the Ewoks and Jar Jar Binks. Recall the Queen not only asking Jar Jar for assistance, but kneeling before Boss Nass. Certainly a show of humility. The same may be said of Solo and the others underestimating the Ewoks, only to recognize how wrong they were.

    It looks like there is in fact some depth to Jedi after all!

  21. Gharlane Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 30, 2000
    star 2
    "As for the introduction of Ewoks being in a sense a sell out, I can't disagree more. Lucas is constantly playing around with references to the seven deadly sins and the seven virtures. Humility is certainly one that may be learned from both the Ewoks and Jar Jar Binks. Recall the Queen not only asking Jar Jar for assistance, but kneeling before Boss Nass. Certainly a show of humility. The same may be said of Solo and the others underestimating the Ewoks, only to recognize how wrong they were."

    Did you know that Lucas was also saying african americans are evil. I mean Vader the bad guy was voiced by an African American and Lando the judas was portrayed by an African American. He was also saying that African Americans are worthless since all the black pilots got killed except Lando who almost got killed.

    SW also showed us that Lucas hates homosexuals.C-2PO and R2-D2 who represented the homosexuals were refused service in cantine. Very subtle might I mention. SW also shows you his hate for short people fore they all have degrading roles as Ewoks, Jawas or droids.

    Just in case you haven't figured it out I am mocking you. You're over analyzing rotj.
  22. Binary_Sunset Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2000
    star 5
    Gharlane, thanks for a much-needed thread. I was going to start something similar to it, but you beat me to the punch. What if, among other things, we post, bit by bit, "50 Reasons Why ROTJ Sucks" from Vebber and Gould's "The Unauthorized Star Wars Compendium"?

    Here are the fist three reasons:

    1. EWOKS, EWOKS, EWOKS: One of the miracles of the Star Wars trilogy is that Lucas's bizarre and ever present fascination with little people didn't hurt the first two films. The Jawas were cool. But George had to push his luck. The Ewoks are not cool. Period. In circles of die-hard Star Wars fans, to say you hate the Ewoks is like saying you enjoy breathing air. The Ewoks are the primary example of many of the points on this list: their unapologetic cuddliness is uncharacteristic and unwelcome; they look fake; they engage in constant physical comedy; their teddy bear design is wholly uninteresting; they live in boring surroundings; several of the film's dumbest scenes revolve around them; they were originally supposed to have been Wookies; and they sing that damn song at the end (well, at least until the Special Edition). But aside from what we see on-screen, the Ewoks are miserable little creatures for a completely different reason: they are the single clearest example of Lucas's willingness to compromise the integrity of his trilogy in favor of merchandising dollars. How intensely were the Ewoks marketed? Consider this: Ewok is a household word, despite the fact that it's never once spoken in the film.

    2. THE TONE IS INCONSISTENT: The Rebellion is in ruins, Darth Vader is Luke's father, and Han is frozen. Why Lucas decided to smother these ambitious plot elements under a load of feel-good clichés and textbook plot structure is anyone's guess (it's our theory that he was infected with the same mania that caused Spielberg to make Hook eight years later). Jedi never has any idea of what it's trying to be. Throughout, the mood and pacing is herky-jerked back and forth between dramatic and lighthearted. The scenes with Vader look and feel like they're taking place in a different film from those with our heroes, and no amount of special effects or nostalgia for Wars and Empire can make the pieces fit together. Lacking any consistent driving force (pun intended), Jedi is impossible to take seriously and has little to none of the mythic, transporting feel of its predecessors. We're always aware we're watching a big-budget movie.

    3. THE LOOK IS ALL WRONG: After the second film, did the Empire celebrate its trouncing of the Rebellion by going through the galaxy with a big bottle of Windex? Everything in Jedi looks clean and polished, from the ships to the costumes to the backgrounds. One of the triumphs of the first two films was the fact that it was next to impossible to imagine they were filmed right here on Earth. In contrast, Jedi's sets look like sets. We can picture cameras, plywood, and the key grip eating a sandwich just out of the frame. Marquand never seems to know where to put the camera and is constrained by the space his scenes inhabit instead of inspired by it. In the end, it's surprising that Jedi doesn't have any cardboard tombstones falling over or a brief appearance by Vampira as the ghoul's wife.

  23. DarthHomer Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 29, 2000
    star 5
    Binary, I wouldn't bother with that "50 Reasons Jedi Sucks" list. I know you can do much better. Most of the reasons in that list are stupid. One of them complains that the Imperials don't have British accents in the film. Huh?

    Anyway, I stand by the conventional wisom that ROTJ and TPM, while flawed compared to the other two, are still great films.
    As for why there was a second Death Star in ROTJ - there are two good reasons for this, and neither of them is because Lucas ran out of ideas:

    1. The DS was not supposed to be blown up in ANH originally. Lucas only did this because he didn't know if he could make sequels, and he wanted the first Star Wars film to have as exciting an ending as possible.

    2. He wasn't satisfied with the lack of speed and small number of ships in the original battle. The DSII battle is what the first one would have been like if Lucas had the time and money back in 1977. It's kinda similar to how Terminator 2 re-used scenes and ideas from the first film on a bigger budget.

    I look forward to your response.
  24. Gharlane Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 30, 2000
    star 2
    Here is the website that has all 50 reasons.

    http://www.digiserve.com/eescape/closet/silly/50-Reasons-Jedi-Sucks.html

    The British accent complaint is pretty valid since all the Imperials in the early movies had british accents and it would be consistent for them in Rotj to have it.

    1.That isn't a very good reason. He should have wrote a trap door into ep4 that makes the survival of the DS possible since he didn't too bad. Besides he should have had DS2 replaced with Had Abbandon or the Executor. Besides Star Wars is an epic not a thirty minute cartoon. A DS2 would be perfect for a cartoon, but not for a series of movies like Star Wars. It just cheapens the power of the Death Star.

    2.The space battle could also take place near Had Abbandon.

  25. Binary_Sunset Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2000
    star 5
    DarthHomer, I certainly don't agree with all 50 of the reasons in "Fifty Reasons Why Jedi Sucks", but I think some reasons are valid and the others succeed in being funny. And thanks for the compliment, by the way. ;)

    Gharlane, by posting the link does that mean you don't want the 50 reasons posted in full text on this thread? If not, I'll respect that. I do think, however, that it would be fun and informative to post them all here bit by bit.

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