ROTJ and its flaws

Jared, the dialogue between Luke and Vader was one of the few scenes in ROTJ that I liked.

 

I think the Ewoks were a masterful move on the part of GL. You always root for the underdog and it was much more exciting to see the rebels win under such incredible odds than if it had just been a fair and even fight.

The Empire decided to build the second Death Star over the moon of Endor because of the very fact that its most populace race were fluffy 'Teddy Bears'. Once again it demonstrated that Palpatine's biggest problem was his overconfidence.

 

Once again Gharlane improves upon ROTJ: "Lucas could have the battle occuring over the Capital where you would get your big space battle while Leia and some Rebel Commandos attack the forest moon where the attack on the bunker with Wookies instead of Ewoks would occur and Luke and Vader would duel near the lava pits of the capital. Han or Lando would venture into the SSD to destroy it very similar to the DS2's destruction in ROTJ."

Yes indeed.

 

Reasons 7-9 of Why Jedi Sucks, plus a comment at the end:

7. PHYSICAL COMEDY: This is a galactic rebellion, for heaven's sake! Yet an Ewok clocks himself with his own slingshot. Threepio's legs point skyward after he falls off the skiff into the sand. Countless adorable Muppets zanily cover their eyes or flip-duck off their perches when faced with tense situations. Worst of all, there are two solid instances where burps are used for cheap laughs. Burps! And where are the fart jokes? Well, maybe in the next film. Jedi is as good a parody of the trilogy as one could hope for; there was really no need for Mel Brooks to make Spaceballs.

8. UNINTERESTING LOCALES: Wars and Empire took us to locales that many of us have never been to in real life, namely a vast desert, a run-down spaceport, an enormous space battle station, a planet of ice and snow, a dense, slithering swamp, and a floating cloud city. Jedi just rehashes what we've already seen (though Jedi's Tatooine looks significantly less exotic than it did in Wars, having been filmed in California instead of Tunisia), adding only one new biome: the woods (oh, so that's what trees look like). If this pattern continues, expect the next Star Wars film to be set on the mysterious planet of sidewalks and suburban ranch homes.

9. THE FOREST BATTLE ON ENDOR: If we wanted to see improbable jungle shenanigans, we'd have rented Battle for the Planet of the Apes. The myriad traps and offensive weapons constructed by the Ewoks (apparently over the course of one night) work with such predictable precision against the Imperials that the "battle" is little more than scene after predictable scene of sticks and stones taking out high-tech weaponry and forest-trained stormtroopers. Jedi may be a fantasy film, but the Ewoks' victory still flies in the face of all reason, logic, and precedent. It's a cute little war in which dozens of human stormtroopers are beaten to death and we're treated to only one dead Ewok. Happily, audiences have always responded to the stupidity of this imbalance: in screening after screening, the Ewok's groaning demise is typically met with more cheers and applause than the destruction of the Death Star.

Reason #7 asks, "Where are the fart jokes? Well, maybe in the next film." Right on the money! (and don't forget the poop joke). Obviously, the author of "50 Reasons" intended this to be a rhetorical question. He didn't really expect there to be fart jokes in TPM. But genius GL treated TPM as a parody of the OT, even more so than ROTJ was a parody of SW and ESB. How sad that a question asked in a ridiculous and joking manner was answered seriously by GL.

 

Gharlane, I have one thing, and one thing only to say to you about you're little "rewrite" of RotJ: It doesn't matter worth a d@mn. It won't change anything, because RotJ is Lucas's film, not yours. His vision was what was released the year that I was born. You are simply a disgruntled fan who didn't get what he expected.

As far as RotJ goes, it has its good points and its bad points, as do ANH, ESB and TPM. ESB is often considered the greatest of the Star Wars movies, yet it has some atrocious lines, such as Leia's completely emotionless "Star Destroyer" line. ANH has that nice little scene on the bridge where Luke and Leia sound like morons. Yet both are considered classics. Why is RotJ then considered trash with just as much good and bad as the rest? My opinion is that it is that because when Star Wars came out it was revolutionary. But by the time that the second sequel came out, the fans had come to their own conclusions as to where Star Wars should go. But the fans forgot one thing: it was not about their own ideas of where everything should go: it was about where Uncle George wanted it to go. The same thing happened with TPM: the fans wanted what they wanted, GL wanted what he wanted.

 

You're being a 'monday expert'.
I would have...
He should have...
RotJ is what it is (till george goes back and changes stuff again).

Muppets - it was the best way at the time to convey a universe inhabited by aliens or we would of had another movie of 5'8" guys in rubber masks.

Ewoks - most of Lucas' money was coming from the merchandise by this time, give the kids something to like and they'll buy the other stuff too. Of course the ewoks were pure marketing, duh!, is defeating a crack squad of troopers with primitive technology any less believable than a single x-wing destoying the death star, no, it's dramatic licence. The little guy (literally in the case of ewoks) can make a difference, as long as he is willing to stand up and risk it all.

2nd DS - No government goes into production of one of anything. Bummer dude, they totally trashed the death star, oh well we better not build another one. Who cares about all the credits, the manufacturing plants, the years of r&d. pphhhtt! You fix the problem and keep churning them out.

By allowing these percieved flaws to dominate how you view rotj you're depriving yourself of truly enjoying the OT. The target audience of the movies is the 12-15 age group, try watching rotj with that mindset instead of an over-annalytical adult and you'll find it ain't that bad.

 

Grand Admiral Reese

You probably didn't wait three years to see ROTJ and only to be disappointed. Besides the bad points in ROTJ outweigh its good points. In ANH the only flaw I saw was the special effect and ESTB was perfect. In ROTJ the Xanatosian Emperor who conquered the Galactic Republic becomes a cliched villain and the Wookies which were suppose to appear became Ewoks. Besides most of the ideas for the rewrite were from the annoted screenplays.

Sith

Muppets- He could have made the aliens alittle bit more realistic or better yet he could have put more humans in Jabba's court.

Ewoks- He sold us out just to get more money! On the issue of the weak Ewoks vs elite Imperial stormtroopers see my other posts in this thread.

2nd ds- SW isn't real life it is a story. In a story it is unwise to reuse plot devices such as the Death Star.

 

Gharlane, it doesn't matter what galaxy the story is set in - the standard military outlook is always "why build just one weapon of mass destruction when you can have two at twice the price?"
Anyway, the flaw in the trilogy isn't the second Death Star being in ROTJ, it's blowing up the first one in ANH. If Lucas knew for sure he could make the sequels, I very much doubt the DS would have been destroyed at the end of the first film.
Sure, he could have used a super star destroyer in Jedi instead, but that would still be a rehash, just with a different McGuffin. And we'd lose the great scene of the Falcon escaping from inside DSII as it explodes.

About the dialogue, we must just beg to differ. What you call bad writing, I call a homage to Flash Gordon serials

MTFBWY

 

A big showdown on Coruscant wasn't possible in 1983...

Coruscant showdowns and confrontations in Sith Liar will be used for Anakin..

 

Homer

"And we'd lose the great scene of the Falcon escaping from inside DSII as it explodes."

The scenes with the Falcon escaping the superstructure of DS2 could be replaced with it escaping the superstructure of the Executor.

"What you call bad writing, I call a homage to Flash Gordon serials."

I guess you're in love with DEM.

Baggles

"A big showdown on Coruscant wasn't possible in 1983..."

In 1977 they said it wasn't possible to see the special effects we saw in ANH.

"Coruscant showdowns and confrontations in Sith Liar will be used for Anakin."

How do you know it'll be used for Anakin?

 

Because Episode 3 revolves around Anakin going to the Darkside and the Sith Lair is the place where he completes his fall.

 

I agree. ROTJ is even worse than ESB. Star Wars sux!

 

Ghar:

Get over it, man. Find something else to pick on. This is all a back-and-forth over your opinion vs. someone else's. No one is right, no one is wrong. Stop arguing over whether or not one movie is better than another, because in reality, no movie is better than another, it is all in how YOU perceive it. I BELIEVE that ROTJ is the best. It is my favorite of the SW movies. But that doesn't mean that it definitively is the best. It sipmly means that I like it best. So forget about it.

 

These movies are for our enjoyment. If a movie makes yer blood boil so much to give you an aneurysm, don't watch it.

 

Wow, Gharlane, you're really bent out of shape by this...

My main problems with ROTJ come with the set-up...I find most of Jabba's palace to be boring after 40 viewings, as well as much of the middle transition. Also, I can understand you having a problem with the writing of the movie as a whole.

However, from the scene showing Luke and Leia's discussion onward, the pacing, direction, excitement and execution of the movie is pure gold. Sure, you don't like the 2nd death star. But, don't you get a thrill from the way excitement is built in the space battle, the sharp cuts from action on three fronts that connects logically and thematically?

Isn't William's soundtrack (I'm not talking concert pieces here, like the 'Love theme' or 'Imperial March') in the 2nd half of ROTJ absolutely fantastic?

The 'cliched' Emperor you hate...despite that, isn't the three-way conflict on the DS much deeper than the stale encounter in SW and as nuanced as the duel in ESB? C'mon...if ROTJ was pure crap, there's no way they would have taken such pains in constructing that conflict. They would've taken the easy way out for sure.

All I'm saying is that while the story conception may have been a bit lazy and unoriginal, the execution of the story (direction, music, effects, editing) is absolutely fantastic. Great enought to be copied elsewhere (TPM, ID4, etc.) and never matched.

 

In ROTJ, what was the purpose of the huge rebel ships (where squid boy played with his chair)? As I recall, all of the fighters were already out and these big ships didn't fire anything. Were they just big targets or did they have a purpose?

 

"The scenes with the Falcon escaping the superstructure of DS2 could be replaced with it escaping the superstructure of the Executor. "

Gharlane, one question. What would the Falcon be doing INSIDE the Executor? Is that under construction too?

I love the Escape from Jabba's Palace and Battle of Endor segments of ROTJ. My only problem is that nothing really happens for almost an hour between them (apart from the speeder bike chase, of course)

 

Ookla

By your own profound reasoning if you encounter a thread you don't like then don't read of post there.

Red-Seven

The conflict would have been better if the Emperor stayed silent. Whenever Luke strays towards the dark side he turns back to the light thanks to Palpatine.

Homer

"What would the Falcon be doing INSIDE the Executor? Is that under construction too? "

No, the Falcon goes into the Executor to try and knock it out before it destroys the Sanctuary moon.

"I love the Escape from Jabba's Palace and Battle of Endor segments of ROTJ. My only problem is that nothing really happens for almost an hour between them (apart from the speeder bike chase, of course)"

Thats another the problem, ep6 seems more like two episodes crammed together. The escape is the climax for the first episode while the Battle of Endor is the climax for the second.

 

Hi Guys, I am branching out to help out ROTJ now too.

All of the film's flaws are negated by the powerful storyline.

Wait a minute, what are the flaws?

I see Ewoks listed already. They aren't wrong exactly, they are just cute.

Does anyone have a legitimate issue with this film?

 

Here we go, this is more organized than I thought....

"1. EWOKS, EWOKS, EWOKS: One of the miracles of the Star Wars trilogy is that Lucas's bizarre and ever present fascination with little people didn't hurt the first two films. The Jawas were cool. But George had to push his luck. The Ewoks are not cool. Period."

Go-Mer: Okay, but they weren't meant to be cool, they were meant to be cute.

"In circles of die-hard Star Wars fans, to say you hate the Ewoks is like saying you enjoy breathing air."

Go-Mer: The ones I hang out in know they should avoid hate, not breathe it.

"The Ewoks are the primary example of many of the points on this list: their unapologetic cuddliness is uncharacteristic and unwelcome;"

Go-Mer: Unwelcome by the fans who give in to hate over the cute little racals, sure. Many of us are not put off by it.

"...they look fake; they engage in constant physical comedy;"

Go-Mer: You mean these bastards over at ILM want us to smile every once in a while? Why didn't you tell us this sooner? (sarcasm)

"...their teddy bear design is wholly uninteresting; they live in boring surroundings; several of the film's dumbest scenes revolve around them;"

Go-Mer: Hate leads to indifference, indifference leads to boredom, boredom leads to superiority complexes (i.e. "I am so bored, that all of these scenes are beneath me, and any reaosnable child").

"...they were originally supposed to have been Wookies;"

So, watch it on a regular TV, but set the DVD player as if you have a wide screen TV. This will stretch the wiescreen image to the full height of the TV, and BAM! Instant Wookies!

"...and they sing that damn song at the end (well, at least until the Special Edition)."

Go-Mer: Damn those furry cutie pies to hell!!

"...But aside from what we see on-screen, the Ewoks are miserable little creatures for a completely different reason:"

Go-Mer: You mean aside from all those others?

"...they are the single clearest example of Lucas's willingness to compromise the integrity of his trilogy in favor of merchandising dollars."

Go-Mer: Oh you mean this example was clearer than EVERY SINGLE SECOND HE HAS BEEN SELLING THE SW LICENCE SINCE '77? Glad you all could join us. This has always been about selling the toys to keep the films afloat, however George does the best marketing he can for the toys, he makes a substantial film. They toys are just based off that. How the hell do you make something in a film like this, JUST for toys? What because they are cute and innocuous? That is what sells? Well, you say it is not what you want. Who is he selling this to? Wait, I know, people who don't mind cute things.

"How intensely were the Ewoks marketed? Consider this: Ewok is a household word, despite the fact that it's never once spoken in the film."

Go-Mer: So was Boba Fett before ROTJ. Is he a marketing "gimmick" as well?

"2. THE TONE IS INCONSISTENT: The Rebellion is in ruins, Darth Vader is Luke's father, and Han is frozen. Why Lucas decided to smother these ambitious plot elements under a load of feel-good clichés and textbook plot structure is anyone's guess"

Go-Mer: I think it has something to do with this "mythic structure" thing. The Hero's journey or something like that.

"...(it's our theory that he was infected with the same mania that caused Spielberg to make Hook eight years later)."

Go-Mer: Lord let's hope it isn't "catching".

"Jedi never has any idea of what it's trying to be."

Go-Mer: The film is sentient?

"Throughout, the mood and pacing is herky-jerked back and forth between dramatic and lighthearted."

Go-Mer: Wow, he is copying every film ever made isn't he? What a hack!

"The scenes with Vader look and feel like they're taking place in a different film from those with our heroes,"

Go-Mer: What? How does that work? In what way does it seem like that? Anyone?

"...and no amount of special effects or nostalgia for Wars and Empire can make the pieces fit together."

Go-Mer: Yeah, you have to actually understand what George is doing here a

 

Keep up the good work Go-Mer. Someone has to set these people straight.

 

<standing ovation>My hat's off to you, Go-Mer.

No, Gharlane. You missed my point. I was saying a film is static -- no matter how many times you view it, the outcome never changes. If a film makes you so angry that you feel the need to rewrite it in your own vision (a vision that you cannot relate to mass audiences, since I highly doubt GL will give up the rights to the likeness of his characters), then save yourself the anguish of viewing such a painful piece of celluloid.

A forum, conversely (pun intended), is an ever-changing, ongoing story. A place to pit your opinions/views against someone else?s opinions/views. (Most of us never try to change anyone's opinions -- just get them to question them.)

It would be as much a travesty to rewrite any filmmaker's movie (just 'cause it does not appeal to you, one out of millions of fans) as it would to not respond to a message thread just because you do not share the views.

Gharlane, I hope you respond, even if you do not like what is said on this board.

 

I can't wait for Go-Mer to refute everyone one of those 50 reasons

 

~{!0~}Go-Mer: Okay, but they weren't meant to be cool, they were meant to be cute.~{!1~}

Anything that fights in a battle in Star Wars shouldn~{!/~}t be cute!

~{!0~}Go-Mer: You mean these bastards over at ILM want us to smile every once in a while? Why didn't you tell us this sooner? (sarcasm)~{!1~}

No those bastards at ILM want to make kids smiles so they would buy more tickets, toys and other Ewok or Ep6 related merchandise.

~{!0~}Go-Mer: Hate leads to indifference, indifference leads to boredom, boredom leads to superiority complexes (i.e. "I am so bored, that all of these scenes are beneath me, and any reaosnable child").~{!1~}

You are an excellent example Go-Mer.

~{!1~}Go-Mer: Damn those furry cutie pies to hell!!~{!1~}

You actually said something right Go-mer!

~{!1~}Go-Mer: Oh you mean this example was clearer than EVERY SINGLE SECOND HE HAS BEEN SELLING THE SW LICENCE SINCE '77? Glad you all could join us. This has always been about selling the toys to keep the films afloat, however George does the best marketing he can for the toys, he makes a substantial film. They toys are just based off that. How the hell do you make something in a film like this, JUST for toys? What because they are cute and innocuous? That is what sells? Well, you say it is not what you want. Who is he selling this to? Wait, I know, people who don't mind cute things.~{!1~}

Before ep6 Lucas just made toys and merchandise from things appearing in the movie. The merchandising never leaked into the movie, but after ep6 it did and after that the EU leaked in.(no jokes please)

~{!1~}Go-Mer: So was Boba Fett before ROTJ. Is he a marketing "gimmick" as well?~{!1~}

Everyone loved Boba Fett because of the costume and that he was mysterious.

~{!1~}Go-Mer: I think it has something to do with this "mythic structure" thing. The Hero's journey or something like that.~{!1~}

No the Hero~{!/~}s journey is very amorphous. You can do it very ingeniously (ex Babylon 5, Gargoyles) or very badly(ep6).

~{!1~}Go-Mer: What? How does that work? In what way does it seem like that? Anyone?~{!1~}

By squashing two episodes into one.

~{!1~}Go-Mer: Um, this is how the Empire was shown in ANH and ESB. Jabba's palace is anything but polished, and the rebels are just a rag tag, hey that would make a nice TV show, with Loren Green.. sorry.~{!1~}

In ep4 and ep5, Vader~{!/~}s helmet, the Imperials and their ships weren~{!/~}t polished or shiny. In the beginning of ep4, you couldn~{!/~}t see your own reflection in Vader~{!/~}s helmet, but you could in ep6.

~{!1~}Go-Mer: Yeah, but that was when you were 7 years old. You have to leg go your concoius self, and act on instinct.~{!1~}

You misspelled conscious. I saw it when I was 14 and I loved ep4 and 5, but hated ep6.

Go-mer why don't you put your talent to good use by attacking these guys at http://www.crossroad.to/ instead of attacking your follow fans. These guys are saying all kinds of things about Star Wars including that it is satanic and that the Force is satanic.

Ookla
"It would be as much a travesty to rewrite any filmmaker's movie"

Tell that to the guys rewriting the TPM and besides Mr. Lucas redid his own movie with the SE.

"(just 'cause it does not appeal to you, one out of millions of fans)"

I think a lot more peole are displeased with it besides Binary, Robert Brown and I.

Aren't you guys ashamed of yourself? Three rotj gushers against one ROTJ basher.

 

Go-Mer (before): Okay, but they weren't meant to be cool, they were meant to be cute.

Gharlane: "Anything that fights in a battle in Star Wars shouldn't be cute!"

Go-Mer: You know, I have read quite a bit of official stuff regarding the fictional world of SW, and actually, it is all right for them to be cute. Is it possible that this is just something YOU can't handle?

Go-Mer(before): You mean these bastards over at ILM want us to smile every once in a while? Why didn't you tell us this sooner? (sarcasm)

Gharlane: "No those bastards at ILM want to make kids smiles so they would buy more tickets, toys and other Ewok or Ep6 related merchandise."

Go-Mer: THEY WANT TO MAKE KIDS SMILE? THEN THEY WANT THEM TO HAVE FUN PLAYING WITH COOL, QUALITY MADE TOYS? I think it is time to bring the guillotine back into play here. (super sarcasm)

Go-Mer (before): Hate leads to indifference, indifference leads to boredom, boredom leads to superiority complexes (i.e. "I am so bored, that all of these scenes are beneath me, and any reaosnable child").

Gharlane: "You are an excellent example Go-Mer."

Go-Mer: Because I don't irrationally hate cute things that make kids happy?

Go-Mer (before): Damn those furry cutie pies to hell!!

Gharlane: "You actually said something right Go-mer!"

Go-Mer: Actually, I should have put another "sarcasm" label at the end of that one.

Go-Mer (before): Oh you mean this example was clearer than EVERY SINGLE SECOND HE HAS BEEN SELLING THE SW LICENCE SINCE '77? Glad you all could join us. This has always been about selling the toys to keep the films afloat, however George does the best marketing he can for the toys, he makes a substantial film. They toys are just based off that. How the hell do you make something in a film like this, JUST for toys? What because they are cute and innocuous? That is what sells? Well, you say it is not what you want. Who is he selling this to? Wait, I know, people who don't mind cute things.

Gharlane: "Before ep6 Lucas just made toys and merchandise from things appearing in the movie. The merchandising never leaked into the movie, but after ep6 it did and after that the EU leaked in.(no jokes please)"

Go-Mer: So, because he is allowing Kenner to make figures based on the EU, he is somehow making his films just to sell toys? Here is a tip on all toys, if you don't want the EU toys, you don't have to get them. They have absolutely no bearing on the films.

Go-Mer (before): So was Boba Fett before ROTJ. Is he a marketing "gimmick" as well?

Gharlane: "Everyone loved Boba Fett because of the costume and that he was mysterious."

Go-Mer: So because everyone wanted to buy a Boba Fett figure, he wasn't a marketing gimmick, while the stuff based on Ewoks, that you say no true SW fan would buy is a marketing gimmick? I think the light at the end of this tunnel is the realisation that neither were any more designed with the toy line in mind. They were both things they designed for the films, that they happend to turn into toys. It is just some people have this irrational hatred of things that are cute. Which is cool, but you aren't the only people trying to enjoy this stuff. Have you ever considered sharing this saga with people who love the Ewoks?

Go-Mer (before): I think it has something to do with this "mythic structure" thing. The Hero's journey or something like that.

Gharlane: "No the Hero's journey is very amorphous. You can do it very ingeniously (ex Babylon 5, Gargoyles) or very badly(ep6)."

Go-Mer: You keep your Babylon 5, and I will keep my Episode 6.

Go-Mer (before): What? How does that work? In what way does it seem like that? Anyone?

Gharlane: "By squashing two episodes into one."

Go-Mer: Right, but that gives all the scenes the appearance that they are all in the same film. You were saying they seem like they were in different films. In what way do they seem like this. Can you elaborate in any way?

Go-Mer (before): Um, this is how the Empire was shown in ANH and ESB. Jabba's palace is anything but polished, an